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talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:keep. It would of course be appropriate to purge any members for whom this is non-defining or unreferenced. –
FayenaticLondon06:48, 21 August 2021 (UTC)reply
"Masters of foxhounds were originally the owners of the packs of hounds used for fox hunting and the employers of hunt servants. Now they are more often the members of fox hunts with control of the hunt. ..."
Keep: This is definitely a defining characteristic, as being a master of foxhounds is almost a full-time occupation during the
fox hunting season, which lasts for more than half of the year. The case of the Dukes of Beaufort is unusual, as all the Dukes have been masters of the
Duke of Beaufort's Hunt, which is a rare exception. The use of the postnominals “M.F.H” (as noted at the head of the category) is also evidence that this is a defining role.
Moonraker (
talk)
02:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
It’s hard to say without looking into the detail. Most landowning peers used to have plenty of leisure for such a demanding role, and some still do.
Moonraker (
talk)
17:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Ideally, there would be a more narrow category that captured people who did this as a vocation but exclude wealthy landowners that just owned hounds. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
18:43, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Often the largest financial contributor may be true, but the header says originally owning the hounds, not typically. Not sure where money comes into the discussion here!
Moonraker (
talk)
02:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator. What an absurd and repelling "noblesse oblige" UK tradition. I'd say we don't need this category. No doubt at all that it is
WP:NONDEFINING (
WP:TRIVIALCAT and
WP:PERFCAT, just an out-of-time status symbol of rich UK country gentry of former times. --
Just N. (
talk)
15:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Some people are repelled by fox hunting,
Just N., but the question is whether being an MFH is a defining characteristic. (You may not have noticed that many are from outside the British Isles.)
Moonraker (
talk)
06:21, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Whether it is repelling or not is of course an aside. Whether this is a non-defining obligation of nobles, is the central point of disagreement. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
10:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
If it was ever an obligation,
RevelationDirect, which I doubt, that was a very long time ago. Until about 1900 most MFHs did come from the
landed gentry, but not now. There are a lot of peers in this category because almost all of them were notable until the
House of Lords Act 1999 came along, so most have WP articles. See the list of MFHs at
Quorn Hunt, only one peer since 1898. But I do not see that the social rank of anyone makes any difference. This is a nearly full-time job for about half the year, even if unpaid, and jobs are defining.
Moonraker (
talk)
02:35, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment As it is almost only Moonraker who fights like a fire-breathing lobbyist for this superfluous and obsolete category we all have noticed that it is also he who has been setting KEEP tag markers more than once. Which is foul play and against the rules! --
Just N. (
talk)
10:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep but purge - I'm looking over
Fox_hunting#People and
Category:People in sports. And while I understand that there is controversy concerning the sport, other sports have had ontroversy as well. That said, purge anyone that does not have this with a confirming reference in the person's article. - jc3714:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I would like to see more discussion on whether this is defining according to the definition and criteria provided by
WP:DEFINING.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac1521:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Revisionist Western
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Rename per nom Revisionist Western films were quite popular in the 1960s and the 1970s. Conversely, I don't recall any Revisionist Western television series.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lawrence Vikings athletic directors
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Category:Sports in Hot Springs, Arkansas
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Category:Sports in Fort Smith, Arkansas
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Category:Sports in Aliso Viejo, California
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Comment Probably okay to rename it, even if I still doubt that 'Learned Hand' is self-evident. The addition Judge helped to make it easily anderstandable. --
Just N. (
talk)
12:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Myrath
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Nominator's rationale: Articles for two albums only which are already in an appropriate "albums by artist" subcategory. Zero point for this eponymous parent. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I am typically in favor of keeping small categories, in order to fit larger categorization schemes. But an eponymous category for this band is unlikely to ever have more that one article. We do not have biographical articles on their members. We do not have articles on their concerts. We do not have articles on any real-life events involving the band.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Derek Chauvin
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Delete I guess. I had thought this category would be useful, and I thought others would find further relevant articles to add it to. "Only committ[ing] one crime" isn't a valid reason for deletion, but
WP:OCEPON is. On a side note, how many articles are enough to justify an eponymous category? I've never seen a specific number used anywhere, and it's an area I've struggled with in the past.
Sean Stephens (
talk)
00:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Johnpacklambert: Is that ten articles, or ten articles and subcategories? If it's the former, I've seen many in violation of the guideline, and I would most certainly never have created this category if I knew that to be the case.
Sean Stephens (
talk)
04:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
This is just a general rule of thumb. Even if there are well over 10 articles but they all fall into 1 or 2 more appropriate set sub-categories, then there is no need for an eponymous category, which is simply a catch-all. But never for just 2 or 3 related articles. I agree with the delete !votes on this one. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me06:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Eponomous categories overcat rule is the second most broken one, just ahead of violation of the rule on awards and just behind our huge level of violations of ERGS rules.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
12:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete This could be a viable category if Chauvin's life and crimes happen to inspire notable true-crime works and biopics. So far, this has not happened.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:keep. It would of course be appropriate to purge any members for whom this is non-defining or unreferenced. –
FayenaticLondon06:48, 21 August 2021 (UTC)reply
"Masters of foxhounds were originally the owners of the packs of hounds used for fox hunting and the employers of hunt servants. Now they are more often the members of fox hunts with control of the hunt. ..."
Keep: This is definitely a defining characteristic, as being a master of foxhounds is almost a full-time occupation during the
fox hunting season, which lasts for more than half of the year. The case of the Dukes of Beaufort is unusual, as all the Dukes have been masters of the
Duke of Beaufort's Hunt, which is a rare exception. The use of the postnominals “M.F.H” (as noted at the head of the category) is also evidence that this is a defining role.
Moonraker (
talk)
02:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
It’s hard to say without looking into the detail. Most landowning peers used to have plenty of leisure for such a demanding role, and some still do.
Moonraker (
talk)
17:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Ideally, there would be a more narrow category that captured people who did this as a vocation but exclude wealthy landowners that just owned hounds. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
18:43, 21 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Often the largest financial contributor may be true, but the header says originally owning the hounds, not typically. Not sure where money comes into the discussion here!
Moonraker (
talk)
02:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator. What an absurd and repelling "noblesse oblige" UK tradition. I'd say we don't need this category. No doubt at all that it is
WP:NONDEFINING (
WP:TRIVIALCAT and
WP:PERFCAT, just an out-of-time status symbol of rich UK country gentry of former times. --
Just N. (
talk)
15:57, 28 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Some people are repelled by fox hunting,
Just N., but the question is whether being an MFH is a defining characteristic. (You may not have noticed that many are from outside the British Isles.)
Moonraker (
talk)
06:21, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Whether it is repelling or not is of course an aside. Whether this is a non-defining obligation of nobles, is the central point of disagreement. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
10:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)reply
If it was ever an obligation,
RevelationDirect, which I doubt, that was a very long time ago. Until about 1900 most MFHs did come from the
landed gentry, but not now. There are a lot of peers in this category because almost all of them were notable until the
House of Lords Act 1999 came along, so most have WP articles. See the list of MFHs at
Quorn Hunt, only one peer since 1898. But I do not see that the social rank of anyone makes any difference. This is a nearly full-time job for about half the year, even if unpaid, and jobs are defining.
Moonraker (
talk)
02:35, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment As it is almost only Moonraker who fights like a fire-breathing lobbyist for this superfluous and obsolete category we all have noticed that it is also he who has been setting KEEP tag markers more than once. Which is foul play and against the rules! --
Just N. (
talk)
10:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep but purge - I'm looking over
Fox_hunting#People and
Category:People in sports. And while I understand that there is controversy concerning the sport, other sports have had ontroversy as well. That said, purge anyone that does not have this with a confirming reference in the person's article. - jc3714:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I would like to see more discussion on whether this is defining according to the definition and criteria provided by
WP:DEFINING.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac1521:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Revisionist Western
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per nom Revisionist Western films were quite popular in the 1960s and the 1970s. Conversely, I don't recall any Revisionist Western television series.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Lawrence Vikings athletic directors
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Category:Sports in Hot Springs, Arkansas
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Category:Sports in Fort Smith, Arkansas
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Category:Sports in Aliso Viejo, California
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Comment Probably okay to rename it, even if I still doubt that 'Learned Hand' is self-evident. The addition Judge helped to make it easily anderstandable. --
Just N. (
talk)
12:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Myrath
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Nominator's rationale: Articles for two albums only which are already in an appropriate "albums by artist" subcategory. Zero point for this eponymous parent. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I am typically in favor of keeping small categories, in order to fit larger categorization schemes. But an eponymous category for this band is unlikely to ever have more that one article. We do not have biographical articles on their members. We do not have articles on their concerts. We do not have articles on any real-life events involving the band.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Derek Chauvin
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Delete I guess. I had thought this category would be useful, and I thought others would find further relevant articles to add it to. "Only committ[ing] one crime" isn't a valid reason for deletion, but
WP:OCEPON is. On a side note, how many articles are enough to justify an eponymous category? I've never seen a specific number used anywhere, and it's an area I've struggled with in the past.
Sean Stephens (
talk)
00:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Johnpacklambert: Is that ten articles, or ten articles and subcategories? If it's the former, I've seen many in violation of the guideline, and I would most certainly never have created this category if I knew that to be the case.
Sean Stephens (
talk)
04:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
This is just a general rule of thumb. Even if there are well over 10 articles but they all fall into 1 or 2 more appropriate set sub-categories, then there is no need for an eponymous category, which is simply a catch-all. But never for just 2 or 3 related articles. I agree with the delete !votes on this one. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me06:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Eponomous categories overcat rule is the second most broken one, just ahead of violation of the rule on awards and just behind our huge level of violations of ERGS rules.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
12:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete This could be a viable category if Chauvin's life and crimes happen to inspire notable true-crime works and biopics. So far, this has not happened.
Dimadick (
talk)
23:48, 6 August 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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