Category:Municipalities in the Czech Republic with significant Polish population
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Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure what to do with this category. The problem is that "significant" is a rather loose standard, and it's undefined. How do we decide what goes in the category and what does not? It seems this would be more amenable to a list, where the specific numbers of Polish people can be stated. So I'm proposing deletion/listification, but I'm open to other ideas.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman gentes
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge
Category:Roman gentes back into parent
Category:Ancient Roman families. These are basically duplicate categories, and entries tend to be listed in both. I would keep the one in plain English, since probably less that 0.1% of our readers know what gentes means. I suppose that if there are a bunch of articles on families that don't qualify as gentes, that the parent category could be mostly diffused into the subcategory. Not sure I care either way, as long as the average Roman gens is no longer listed in both. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 20:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose — I'm no expert, but gentes seems to be only one of several partitions of this category. Note the "average" gens doesn't seem to be in both, as there are 579 in the gentes category, and less than 50 in families. Perhaps somebody needs to go through the remaining gens in this parent and properly recategorize? William Allen Simpson (
talk)
06:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment, I agree with William Allen Simpson that recategorizing the remaining articles will already solve the problem. The expectation that less that 0.1% of our readers know what gentes means is not that relevant; the readers of these articles will know.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are not the same, as the family categories are mostly about the close relatives of a given individual, who are not necessarily all from the same gens. And for people who do not know the term, well usually people come to Wkipedia to learn things. I would probably estimate the amount of people who received some notions about Ancient Rome during their education a bit higher than 0.1%, but then I do not live in the U.S.
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The two categories serve different purposes. When I started working on gens articles more than ten years ago, I thought they might overlap and placed them in both; but more experienced editors suggested that they didn't belong, and over time I realized that was the case, and removed the ones still remaining in the "families" category from that, while new articles were never placed in it. The word "gens" is used in English with the same basic meaning, although generally only applied to people in Roman contexts. It can be translated several ways, including "family", which I would argue is the preferable translation—but the articles in "Roman families" are intended to have the more narrow meaning that Place Clichy indicates. Nobody searching for or reading about Roman gentes is going to be confused about the meaning—the articles are written in such a way as to make the distinctions clear. It's simple enough to remove the overlap from the relatively small number of articles that are still included in both categories.
P Aculeius (
talk)
14:29, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
After checking the contents, I've gone ahead and removed that category and another from the handful of gens articles that still contained them. These articles have evolved over the years, from overcategorized stubs that hewed closely to the language of one of the principal sources, to fully-independent articles with a standard structure with better sourcing and formatting. That's one reason that almost all of the articles still in both categories occurred between the letters 'F' and 'M'; with a few exceptions the articles were written starting with 'A' and moving down through the alphabet. The oldest ones had all been corrected, along with many newer articles on small gentes throughout the alphabet, leaving these categories only in a small number of older articles in the middle. Removing them was already standard practice when older articles in the series were being brought up to date; this discussion just motivated me to finish the process, instead of dealing with them as I came across them.
P Aculeius (
talk)
14:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
With the problem now resolved, perhaps a close may be performed immediately. The nominator said he doesn't care "as long as the average Roman gens is no longer listed in both".
Avilich (
talk)
15:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Air Saint Martin accidents and incidents
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Nominator's rationale: the only content in these categories is an article about a
1995 accident and redirect Air Saint Martin. Target article
Air Caraïbes mentions that it absorbed the former airline in 2000 without any other detail. I do not think that so many categories are necessary for so little content, and that the article about the accident can be moved to the parent categories.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Heroines of the Venezuelan War of Independence
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Nominator's rationale: This category should be deleted since it is named after a an entity which never existed.
Usage of terms Government of Karnataka and Government of India should be entertained but there is (or was) nothing by the name Government of Bangalore.
If we want to categorize agencies associated with Bangalore, then we can use Category:Bruhat Bengaluru Mahanagara Palike for Pages dedicated to Agencies associated with Municipal Corporation.
Similarly other Pages which are using Category:Government of Bangalore can use Category:Bangalore. -
Vijethnbharadwaj (
talk)
15:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose, the rationale should at most lead to a rename, but it does not look like that is needed either. The category name is a valid English-language description.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose nom -- I note that the subheading on the info box is "Greater Bengaluru Municipal Corporation". I assume that the Indian government has followed its practice of Indianising names, but all the subcats and articles still use Bangalore. If the city name has been changed to Bengaluru then the category should be renamed to
Category:Greater Bengaluru Municipal Corporation, which is in English rather than Hindi or some other Indian language.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Proposed states of the United States
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Category:Proposed provinces of the Philippines
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Category:Non-sectarian Muslims
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Merge. The single article in the category has a sourced statement for this, and there is no reason stated at this step to delete the target category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
18:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge There is no actual distinction between the two. Considering in some cases sect has a very negative connotation, I would favor merging as proposed. Even though I know that in Christinaity non-denominational Christians often really refers to a specific group, which is not so much a general Christian group but a specific set of ideas, one of which is that they should have no other name but Christ as their affiliation, so it is not actually a general term for all believers in the divinity of Christ who do not affiliate with a specific group. If that is what one means one would say unaffiliated Christians. In some ways there is a non-denomination group that is a de facto denomination. Yes, I just got a headache from writing that, but it is the reality on the group.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films shot in Konaseema
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Dimadick, that's good point, however, Konaseema is a loosely defined region, hence there are no definitive boundaries. In fact, most of the articles do not directly support the inclusion into this category. --
Ab207 (
talk)
07:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Proposed subdivisions of Foo
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Category:Proposed country subdivisions
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Nominator's rationale: In accord with previous decisions. The sub-categories are "States and territories". Those are political divisions.
Terminology: "Political division" is parallel to "administrative division" (sometimes overlapping).
Political divisions are primarily for larger countries that are further divided by sovereign territory/state/province.
Administrative divisions are entirely within a sovereign territory/state/province, and are governed under laws specific to each.
For example, a state or territory of the United States is a sovereign political constituent of the nation, therefore termed a political division. A US congressional district is also a political division, as it is related to the politics of the nation and doesn't necessarily have boundaries aligned with administrative divisions.
The US government has no say in the administrative division of states.
The first level administrative division of a state is often a "county", but instead Louisiana has "parish".
The UK is gradually devolving some powers; Scotland and Wales are political divisions of the UK, but their powers sometimes overlap the powers of the UK.
Support for now. We have been renaming subdivisions to divisions lately so this is just a matter of consistency. Sort of consistency at least, because previously we have also been discussing or renaming to administrative divisions if I remember correctly. At some point in time we will have to discuss where "administrative division" ends in the category tree and where "political division" starts. In my mind nearly all of these divisions are political divisions.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music catalogues
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Nominator's rationale: To match the established scope of the category; music catalogues are not an exclusively classical music thing, so the current category name is unclear
Aza24 (
talk)
01:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cardassians
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Nominator's rationale: Only two articles. No need to merge to the other two categories. They already exist in a character category for the series.
TTN (
talk)
15:06, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Films by audience
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Support as I mentioned in the last discussion "adult films" is a euphamism for pornographic films, it is actually not a designation for all films that have as their intended audience adults.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment I think there is something to be said for the difference between a film being a specific genre, and the studio making it and marketing it towards a specific audience. For example, in Japan works of fiction are more often grouped together by which audience they seek (
adult men,
gay men,
young boys,
adult women, etc) more so than genre.
★Trekker (
talk)
20:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle:Fritz the Cat (film) (which is basically rated-X) is what I think is obviously in "adult", but many others are films that can be legally viewed by kids and adults - kids may get something different out of that experience than adults do and clearly many work on both levels but objectively how do we separate that?
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
18:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose as is. I would favour a system of categories by demographic audience that would cover films as well as other media, such as comics and magazines. Clearly for comics and animation the divide between youth-oriented and adult-oriented publications is not only a matter of genre and not only a euphemism for pornography. E.g. you can find romance, action or historical genres in both.
Category:Novels by age-group and
Category:Mass media by interest are other categories worth considering which follow the same target audience logic. As the term mass media may not be applicable for all, I suggest creating a new
Category:Entertainment by demographic audience or
Category:Entertainment by age-group or
Category:Entertainment by interest and moving other content there, renamed accordingly. The potential is clearly there for merging these variously-named schemes into something consistent. However, this structure should only host material for which this age-group target is defining, and certainly not to place every film or series or novel aimed at a generic audience in an age or gender category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
09:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)reply
So far it seems that age audience overlaps with genre - at least for children and teens - while adult stuff (named as such) is all about genre rather than age: it is about porn, violence and adult animation. All this applies equally to films and novels.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I respectfully disagree. Ghost in the Shell is probably a good example of an animated film aimed at an adult audience (rather than a youth audience as is often expected for animated films or comics), but its genre is sci-fi, not "adult" or erotica. On the other hand, Lucky Luke is a youth comics series, in the Western genre.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Recipients of the Order of Ouissam Alaouite
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Category:People of the Year Awards
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US college sports broadcasters
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Nominator's rationale: As a result of
this discussion, these categories were renamed from "FOO Conference broadcasters" to "FOO Conference announcers". However, unlike the other categories that were renamed in that discussion, these are actually categorizing television and radio stations that broadcast the conferences' games; they are not categorizing announcers. These should therefore be renamed back or deleted if it is thought to not be defining for the stations.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Seems like
WP:PERFCAT by company/station since who has the contract will often change and they have many other shows on. We don't categorize by stations with local news or stations that have a special for a local annual parade. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
17:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- They look like broadcasters to me, but OCVENUE or PERFCAT strike me as applying. With the extent of syndication in US media, the stations that carry a particular broadcast seem NN to me.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Often non-defining for the stations. (As an aside, there are also often stations in the other announcer categories that got moved, and typically it's non-defining for them, too.)
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c)
04:36, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Technically, we'd have wanted those entries still around if this TfD turned and wanted those stations categorized after all. Moot point now, given likely outcome here.—
Bagumba (
talk)
07:48, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Municipalities in the Czech Republic with significant Polish population
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Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure what to do with this category. The problem is that "significant" is a rather loose standard, and it's undefined. How do we decide what goes in the category and what does not? It seems this would be more amenable to a list, where the specific numbers of Polish people can be stated. So I'm proposing deletion/listification, but I'm open to other ideas.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman gentes
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Nominator's rationale: Upmerge
Category:Roman gentes back into parent
Category:Ancient Roman families. These are basically duplicate categories, and entries tend to be listed in both. I would keep the one in plain English, since probably less that 0.1% of our readers know what gentes means. I suppose that if there are a bunch of articles on families that don't qualify as gentes, that the parent category could be mostly diffused into the subcategory. Not sure I care either way, as long as the average Roman gens is no longer listed in both. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ 😼 20:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose — I'm no expert, but gentes seems to be only one of several partitions of this category. Note the "average" gens doesn't seem to be in both, as there are 579 in the gentes category, and less than 50 in families. Perhaps somebody needs to go through the remaining gens in this parent and properly recategorize? William Allen Simpson (
talk)
06:13, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment, I agree with William Allen Simpson that recategorizing the remaining articles will already solve the problem. The expectation that less that 0.1% of our readers know what gentes means is not that relevant; the readers of these articles will know.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:19, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are not the same, as the family categories are mostly about the close relatives of a given individual, who are not necessarily all from the same gens. And for people who do not know the term, well usually people come to Wkipedia to learn things. I would probably estimate the amount of people who received some notions about Ancient Rome during their education a bit higher than 0.1%, but then I do not live in the U.S.
Place Clichy (
talk)
12:55, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. The two categories serve different purposes. When I started working on gens articles more than ten years ago, I thought they might overlap and placed them in both; but more experienced editors suggested that they didn't belong, and over time I realized that was the case, and removed the ones still remaining in the "families" category from that, while new articles were never placed in it. The word "gens" is used in English with the same basic meaning, although generally only applied to people in Roman contexts. It can be translated several ways, including "family", which I would argue is the preferable translation—but the articles in "Roman families" are intended to have the more narrow meaning that Place Clichy indicates. Nobody searching for or reading about Roman gentes is going to be confused about the meaning—the articles are written in such a way as to make the distinctions clear. It's simple enough to remove the overlap from the relatively small number of articles that are still included in both categories.
P Aculeius (
talk)
14:29, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
After checking the contents, I've gone ahead and removed that category and another from the handful of gens articles that still contained them. These articles have evolved over the years, from overcategorized stubs that hewed closely to the language of one of the principal sources, to fully-independent articles with a standard structure with better sourcing and formatting. That's one reason that almost all of the articles still in both categories occurred between the letters 'F' and 'M'; with a few exceptions the articles were written starting with 'A' and moving down through the alphabet. The oldest ones had all been corrected, along with many newer articles on small gentes throughout the alphabet, leaving these categories only in a small number of older articles in the middle. Removing them was already standard practice when older articles in the series were being brought up to date; this discussion just motivated me to finish the process, instead of dealing with them as I came across them.
P Aculeius (
talk)
14:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
With the problem now resolved, perhaps a close may be performed immediately. The nominator said he doesn't care "as long as the average Roman gens is no longer listed in both".
Avilich (
talk)
15:27, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Air Saint Martin accidents and incidents
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Nominator's rationale: the only content in these categories is an article about a
1995 accident and redirect Air Saint Martin. Target article
Air Caraïbes mentions that it absorbed the former airline in 2000 without any other detail. I do not think that so many categories are necessary for so little content, and that the article about the accident can be moved to the parent categories.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Heroines of the Venezuelan War of Independence
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Nominator's rationale: This category should be deleted since it is named after a an entity which never existed.
Usage of terms Government of Karnataka and Government of India should be entertained but there is (or was) nothing by the name Government of Bangalore.
If we want to categorize agencies associated with Bangalore, then we can use Category:Bruhat Bengaluru Mahanagara Palike for Pages dedicated to Agencies associated with Municipal Corporation.
Similarly other Pages which are using Category:Government of Bangalore can use Category:Bangalore. -
Vijethnbharadwaj (
talk)
15:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose, the rationale should at most lead to a rename, but it does not look like that is needed either. The category name is a valid English-language description.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose nom -- I note that the subheading on the info box is "Greater Bengaluru Municipal Corporation". I assume that the Indian government has followed its practice of Indianising names, but all the subcats and articles still use Bangalore. If the city name has been changed to Bengaluru then the category should be renamed to
Category:Greater Bengaluru Municipal Corporation, which is in English rather than Hindi or some other Indian language.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Proposed states of the United States
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Category:Proposed provinces of the Philippines
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Category:Non-sectarian Muslims
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Merge. The single article in the category has a sourced statement for this, and there is no reason stated at this step to delete the target category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
18:07, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge There is no actual distinction between the two. Considering in some cases sect has a very negative connotation, I would favor merging as proposed. Even though I know that in Christinaity non-denominational Christians often really refers to a specific group, which is not so much a general Christian group but a specific set of ideas, one of which is that they should have no other name but Christ as their affiliation, so it is not actually a general term for all believers in the divinity of Christ who do not affiliate with a specific group. If that is what one means one would say unaffiliated Christians. In some ways there is a non-denomination group that is a de facto denomination. Yes, I just got a headache from writing that, but it is the reality on the group.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films shot in Konaseema
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Dimadick, that's good point, however, Konaseema is a loosely defined region, hence there are no definitive boundaries. In fact, most of the articles do not directly support the inclusion into this category. --
Ab207 (
talk)
07:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Proposed subdivisions of Foo
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Category:Proposed country subdivisions
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Nominator's rationale: In accord with previous decisions. The sub-categories are "States and territories". Those are political divisions.
Terminology: "Political division" is parallel to "administrative division" (sometimes overlapping).
Political divisions are primarily for larger countries that are further divided by sovereign territory/state/province.
Administrative divisions are entirely within a sovereign territory/state/province, and are governed under laws specific to each.
For example, a state or territory of the United States is a sovereign political constituent of the nation, therefore termed a political division. A US congressional district is also a political division, as it is related to the politics of the nation and doesn't necessarily have boundaries aligned with administrative divisions.
The US government has no say in the administrative division of states.
The first level administrative division of a state is often a "county", but instead Louisiana has "parish".
The UK is gradually devolving some powers; Scotland and Wales are political divisions of the UK, but their powers sometimes overlap the powers of the UK.
Support for now. We have been renaming subdivisions to divisions lately so this is just a matter of consistency. Sort of consistency at least, because previously we have also been discussing or renaming to administrative divisions if I remember correctly. At some point in time we will have to discuss where "administrative division" ends in the category tree and where "political division" starts. In my mind nearly all of these divisions are political divisions.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music catalogues
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Nominator's rationale: To match the established scope of the category; music catalogues are not an exclusively classical music thing, so the current category name is unclear
Aza24 (
talk)
01:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Cardassians
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Nominator's rationale: Only two articles. No need to merge to the other two categories. They already exist in a character category for the series.
TTN (
talk)
15:06, 13 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Films by audience
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Support as I mentioned in the last discussion "adult films" is a euphamism for pornographic films, it is actually not a designation for all films that have as their intended audience adults.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment I think there is something to be said for the difference between a film being a specific genre, and the studio making it and marketing it towards a specific audience. For example, in Japan works of fiction are more often grouped together by which audience they seek (
adult men,
gay men,
young boys,
adult women, etc) more so than genre.
★Trekker (
talk)
20:45, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Marcocapelle:Fritz the Cat (film) (which is basically rated-X) is what I think is obviously in "adult", but many others are films that can be legally viewed by kids and adults - kids may get something different out of that experience than adults do and clearly many work on both levels but objectively how do we separate that?
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
18:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose as is. I would favour a system of categories by demographic audience that would cover films as well as other media, such as comics and magazines. Clearly for comics and animation the divide between youth-oriented and adult-oriented publications is not only a matter of genre and not only a euphemism for pornography. E.g. you can find romance, action or historical genres in both.
Category:Novels by age-group and
Category:Mass media by interest are other categories worth considering which follow the same target audience logic. As the term mass media may not be applicable for all, I suggest creating a new
Category:Entertainment by demographic audience or
Category:Entertainment by age-group or
Category:Entertainment by interest and moving other content there, renamed accordingly. The potential is clearly there for merging these variously-named schemes into something consistent. However, this structure should only host material for which this age-group target is defining, and certainly not to place every film or series or novel aimed at a generic audience in an age or gender category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
09:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)reply
So far it seems that age audience overlaps with genre - at least for children and teens - while adult stuff (named as such) is all about genre rather than age: it is about porn, violence and adult animation. All this applies equally to films and novels.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I respectfully disagree. Ghost in the Shell is probably a good example of an animated film aimed at an adult audience (rather than a youth audience as is often expected for animated films or comics), but its genre is sci-fi, not "adult" or erotica. On the other hand, Lucky Luke is a youth comics series, in the Western genre.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:49, 6 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Recipients of the Order of Ouissam Alaouite
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Category:People of the Year Awards
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US college sports broadcasters
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Nominator's rationale: As a result of
this discussion, these categories were renamed from "FOO Conference broadcasters" to "FOO Conference announcers". However, unlike the other categories that were renamed in that discussion, these are actually categorizing television and radio stations that broadcast the conferences' games; they are not categorizing announcers. These should therefore be renamed back or deleted if it is thought to not be defining for the stations.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:38, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Seems like
WP:PERFCAT by company/station since who has the contract will often change and they have many other shows on. We don't categorize by stations with local news or stations that have a special for a local annual parade. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
17:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- They look like broadcasters to me, but OCVENUE or PERFCAT strike me as applying. With the extent of syndication in US media, the stations that carry a particular broadcast seem NN to me.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete Often non-defining for the stations. (As an aside, there are also often stations in the other announcer categories that got moved, and typically it's non-defining for them, too.)
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c)
04:36, 31 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Technically, we'd have wanted those entries still around if this TfD turned and wanted those stations categorized after all. Moot point now, given likely outcome here.—
Bagumba (
talk)
07:48, 3 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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