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Category:Gliese 752
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Support No problem deleting this category. Categories grouping individual stars in multiple star systems are not very useful anyway.
Trurle (
talk)
23:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:59 Virginis
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Category:Super Bowl champions
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Note: I've added two similar categories: Grey Cup champions and American Football League champions. If you object, please let me know and I will remove them.--
User:Namiba18:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep - wait what? There seems to be a hurry to close these discussions without proper input.
WP:PERFCAT refers to performers and not athletes? How is competing on a team that wins Super Bowls, Grey Cups, World Series, not notable or relevant. PERFCAT refers to actors who have played Dr. Who, or musicians who have performed at Madison Square Garden. These is actually an absurd delete nomination Krazytea(
talk)22:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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Mayors and regents of places in Indonesia
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Merge for Now While there would have been more than five for each location, most of the office holders would be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they ever get to 5+ articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Trecento composers etc.
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Comment@
YorkshireLad: Thank you so much for creating the entry here and also for updating each of the categories involved. Just now, I was reading the instructions at
WP:CFR and was a bit confused on which steps to follow (rename? merge?) and with the proper procedure for bundled nominations. I was relieved to see that everything had already been done. Thanks again. —
capmo (
talk)
20:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Support all except Trecentofor so many reasons, and I politely advise that
Marcocapelle,
pythoncoder and
Redrose64 reconsider their opinions. Moving the categories without moving the main articles is problematic. If we're going to talk about the Italian wikipedia, note that their articles and category names are in line, which these wouldn't be after such a move. I can't speak for the other eras, but "Trecento" is a standard and the most common way to refer to the musical era and the era of art; "14th-century Italian composers" is far less common than simply "Trecento composers".
Category:Trecento painters or
Category:Quattrocento painters etc. isn't even in the nom. Besides, the Italians can't name if the Trecento because that also means "300" in their language. Anyways, I wouldn't consider "Trecento" "a non-english term" in the same sense that we would for "Hola". In musicology it is extremely common to use specialized terms to refer to movements; e.g. the latin Ars nova, Ars subtilior and Ars antiqua; or the German: Empfindsamer Stil and Sturm und Drang. Also important to note, many Trecento composers weren't even Italian (!!!)
Johannes Ciconia and
Sant Omer are the first that come to my head. In essence, having such a move creates a category-article inconsistency, musicological inconsistency and factual inconsistency.
Aza24 (
talk)
21:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Johannes Ciconia worked most of his life in Italy while it is unclear whether
Sant Omer belongs in this category at all. The question is not whether "14th-century Italian composers" is a common term, we simply diffuse all composers by nationality and century because there are too many composers for one category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
22:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict)
Aza24, I will defer to your knowledge on this! But then I think we still have a problem, because
Category:15th-century Italian composers and all the later ones are being treated as synonymous with the appropriate "-cento composers" categories, as evidenced by the fact that the former redirect to the latter. So I suppose the way to resolve this is to de-redirect the numbered-century categories, and use them for their literal purpose of Italian composers from that century; then use the "-cento" categories for composers associated with the cultural era?
YorkshireLad ✿ (talk)22:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I suppose I could be persuaded otherwise, but the more I think about it, the more I disagree with moving. Trecento is a specific term with a slightly different meaning from "14th century", at least in musicology. See Aza24's excellent summation above. Some non-Italian composers came to Italy, and their work would fall into this category. It's not entirely crazy, by the way, to have both categories, ... but meh. Would have to think about that more.
Antandrus(talk)17:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Support — I'm not a musicologist; rather I was a music performance major at university, and a professional musician for almost 50 years. Of course, we learned about Trecento-style madrigals (and I've sung them) and even dances for the music of that era (in the Society for Creative Anachronism, not music school). But they aren't strictly by century. These are by century and by country categories.
WP:C2C William Allen Simpson (
talk)
01:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — on the other end of the scale, I've never heard
Vivaldi called a "Settecento composer". The article also has him as a "Seicento composer" (in his teens). Other than Trecento, I'm not remembering any of these other categories. I've never heard of a Seicento-style or Settecento-style of performance. Sometimes musicologists are pretty far into the weeds. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
01:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)reply
In music I'm not aware of any others than Trecento being regularly used in musicology or music in general; in the visual arts only Trecento and Quattrocento, as John says. Since this nom includes only the composer ones, I wonder if the appropriate solution would be to move them all but Trecento, and have a sub category of
Category:14th-century Italian composers.
Aza24 (
talk)
18:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ghanaian MPs 2017–
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Category:Roads in Bicol
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Category:American sportspeople of Lebanese descent
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Delete per
WP:OCEGRS. Merging to the proposed target is also feasible in theory, however in practice these ineligible categories are often added in complete disregard for the conditions set at
WP:EGRS and
WP:BLPCAT, as well as categories already present on the page. As an example, Olympic Gold medalist
Jordyn Wieber does have a sourced statement in article with a one-line press quote that she eats Lebanese food for Thanksgiving because she has a Lebanese grandmother, but she is probably very, very far from being commonly and consistently defined by reliable sources as, for instance, the Lebanese American gymnast. Per
WP:CATDEF, she therefore does not need to be in any Lebanese descent category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge Clearly having Lebanese ancestry is defining to at least some people. If it is not to some of the people in the category we can remove that on a case by case basis, but there is no reason to remove it from all. The intersection of Lebanese descent and being in sports is not defining.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered military personnel
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Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable
WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
In particular, military personnel are expected to die in the line of duty. That is not murder.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
Delete Not every intersection of death and occupation is justifiable. In this case, most military personnel who die violently die in an act of war, which does not fall under murder. Some that get classed as murder are really killed in acts of hate crimes motivated by a broad ideology (usually featuring shouts of "allah akbar") that in a broad understanding of causes would count as to the victim a killing motivated by random violence, and so not worth categorizing as murder either.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered police officers
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Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable
WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
Merge to appropriate national police officer categories. Many of the articles in these categories are not already in other sub-categories.--
User:Namiba13:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete/Merge Since those that are assassinated or killed in the line of duty are pulled out, what's left is a coincidental non0defining intersection. No objection to merging. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
14:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete all in selection as the categories' contents make clear no attempt has been made to single out those who were unlawfully killed in the line of duty and anyone else. Given the light that has been shed on the activities of some police officers it may be impossible to be sure that some of the biographies here meet (
verifiably) an acceptable level of not being killed in self-defense which is inconsistent with "murder".
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
02:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedia featured topics United States presidential election, 1880 featured content
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Category:TOFIL Awardees
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Category:Philosopher's Annual Prize winners
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The
Philosopher's Annual picks the top 10 best philosophy papers of that year according to the editors. Usually we associate such end-of-the-year Top 10 lists with popular culture (best movies, best dance songs, etc.) but
this announcement has the same vibe. The articles mention this award only in passing so it doesn't seem defining. There wasn't a list, so I created one right
here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:08, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Gliese 752
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Support No problem deleting this category. Categories grouping individual stars in multiple star systems are not very useful anyway.
Trurle (
talk)
23:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:59 Virginis
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Category:Super Bowl champions
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Note: I've added two similar categories: Grey Cup champions and American Football League champions. If you object, please let me know and I will remove them.--
User:Namiba18:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep - wait what? There seems to be a hurry to close these discussions without proper input.
WP:PERFCAT refers to performers and not athletes? How is competing on a team that wins Super Bowls, Grey Cups, World Series, not notable or relevant. PERFCAT refers to actors who have played Dr. Who, or musicians who have performed at Madison Square Garden. These is actually an absurd delete nomination Krazytea(
talk)22:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)reply
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Mayors and regents of places in Indonesia
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Merge for Now While there would have been more than five for each location, most of the office holders would be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they ever get to 5+ articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Trecento composers etc.
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Comment@
YorkshireLad: Thank you so much for creating the entry here and also for updating each of the categories involved. Just now, I was reading the instructions at
WP:CFR and was a bit confused on which steps to follow (rename? merge?) and with the proper procedure for bundled nominations. I was relieved to see that everything had already been done. Thanks again. —
capmo (
talk)
20:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Support all except Trecentofor so many reasons, and I politely advise that
Marcocapelle,
pythoncoder and
Redrose64 reconsider their opinions. Moving the categories without moving the main articles is problematic. If we're going to talk about the Italian wikipedia, note that their articles and category names are in line, which these wouldn't be after such a move. I can't speak for the other eras, but "Trecento" is a standard and the most common way to refer to the musical era and the era of art; "14th-century Italian composers" is far less common than simply "Trecento composers".
Category:Trecento painters or
Category:Quattrocento painters etc. isn't even in the nom. Besides, the Italians can't name if the Trecento because that also means "300" in their language. Anyways, I wouldn't consider "Trecento" "a non-english term" in the same sense that we would for "Hola". In musicology it is extremely common to use specialized terms to refer to movements; e.g. the latin Ars nova, Ars subtilior and Ars antiqua; or the German: Empfindsamer Stil and Sturm und Drang. Also important to note, many Trecento composers weren't even Italian (!!!)
Johannes Ciconia and
Sant Omer are the first that come to my head. In essence, having such a move creates a category-article inconsistency, musicological inconsistency and factual inconsistency.
Aza24 (
talk)
21:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Johannes Ciconia worked most of his life in Italy while it is unclear whether
Sant Omer belongs in this category at all. The question is not whether "14th-century Italian composers" is a common term, we simply diffuse all composers by nationality and century because there are too many composers for one category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
22:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
(
edit conflict)
Aza24, I will defer to your knowledge on this! But then I think we still have a problem, because
Category:15th-century Italian composers and all the later ones are being treated as synonymous with the appropriate "-cento composers" categories, as evidenced by the fact that the former redirect to the latter. So I suppose the way to resolve this is to de-redirect the numbered-century categories, and use them for their literal purpose of Italian composers from that century; then use the "-cento" categories for composers associated with the cultural era?
YorkshireLad ✿ (talk)22:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Oppose. I suppose I could be persuaded otherwise, but the more I think about it, the more I disagree with moving. Trecento is a specific term with a slightly different meaning from "14th century", at least in musicology. See Aza24's excellent summation above. Some non-Italian composers came to Italy, and their work would fall into this category. It's not entirely crazy, by the way, to have both categories, ... but meh. Would have to think about that more.
Antandrus(talk)17:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Support — I'm not a musicologist; rather I was a music performance major at university, and a professional musician for almost 50 years. Of course, we learned about Trecento-style madrigals (and I've sung them) and even dances for the music of that era (in the Society for Creative Anachronism, not music school). But they aren't strictly by century. These are by century and by country categories.
WP:C2C William Allen Simpson (
talk)
01:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment — on the other end of the scale, I've never heard
Vivaldi called a "Settecento composer". The article also has him as a "Seicento composer" (in his teens). Other than Trecento, I'm not remembering any of these other categories. I've never heard of a Seicento-style or Settecento-style of performance. Sometimes musicologists are pretty far into the weeds. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
01:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)reply
In music I'm not aware of any others than Trecento being regularly used in musicology or music in general; in the visual arts only Trecento and Quattrocento, as John says. Since this nom includes only the composer ones, I wonder if the appropriate solution would be to move them all but Trecento, and have a sub category of
Category:14th-century Italian composers.
Aza24 (
talk)
18:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ghanaian MPs 2017–
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Category:Roads in Bicol
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Category:American sportspeople of Lebanese descent
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Delete per
WP:OCEGRS. Merging to the proposed target is also feasible in theory, however in practice these ineligible categories are often added in complete disregard for the conditions set at
WP:EGRS and
WP:BLPCAT, as well as categories already present on the page. As an example, Olympic Gold medalist
Jordyn Wieber does have a sourced statement in article with a one-line press quote that she eats Lebanese food for Thanksgiving because she has a Lebanese grandmother, but she is probably very, very far from being commonly and consistently defined by reliable sources as, for instance, the Lebanese American gymnast. Per
WP:CATDEF, she therefore does not need to be in any Lebanese descent category.
Place Clichy (
talk)
17:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge Clearly having Lebanese ancestry is defining to at least some people. If it is not to some of the people in the category we can remove that on a case by case basis, but there is no reason to remove it from all. The intersection of Lebanese descent and being in sports is not defining.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:37, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered military personnel
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Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable
WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
In particular, military personnel are expected to die in the line of duty. That is not murder.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
Delete Not every intersection of death and occupation is justifiable. In this case, most military personnel who die violently die in an act of war, which does not fall under murder. Some that get classed as murder are really killed in acts of hate crimes motivated by a broad ideology (usually featuring shouts of "allah akbar") that in a broad understanding of causes would count as to the victim a killing motivated by random violence, and so not worth categorizing as murder either.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
13:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered police officers
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Nominator's rationale: Trivial intersection. No notable
WP:DEFINING link between the occupation and the manner of death. Not commonly and consistently expected as a professional hazard or qualification. There may have been many years between the occupation and the death, making the link even weaker.
Note: Sources about the death of a person will often discuss both their occupation and their cause of death. This doesn't make this intersection any more notable than a combination with other aspects often discussed in such notices, such as their number of children.
Merge to appropriate national police officer categories. Many of the articles in these categories are not already in other sub-categories.--
User:Namiba13:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete/Merge Since those that are assassinated or killed in the line of duty are pulled out, what's left is a coincidental non0defining intersection. No objection to merging. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
14:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete all in selection as the categories' contents make clear no attempt has been made to single out those who were unlawfully killed in the line of duty and anyone else. Given the light that has been shed on the activities of some police officers it may be impossible to be sure that some of the biographies here meet (
verifiably) an acceptable level of not being killed in self-defense which is inconsistent with "murder".
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
02:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedia featured topics United States presidential election, 1880 featured content
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Category:TOFIL Awardees
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Category:Philosopher's Annual Prize winners
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The
Philosopher's Annual picks the top 10 best philosophy papers of that year according to the editors. Usually we associate such end-of-the-year Top 10 lists with popular culture (best movies, best dance songs, etc.) but
this announcement has the same vibe. The articles mention this award only in passing so it doesn't seem defining. There wasn't a list, so I created one right
here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:08, 18 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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