The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Yes the whole tree might be revisited. As for renaming this category in particular, both A and B are good renaming options, but upmerge is the better option per
WP:OCEGRS.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Upmerge this is not a case were ERGS rules justify having a sex specific category. If the parent categories are not applicable, why in the world are they parents?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: For bishops location is far more significant than nationality, and its not clear what nationality is meant - is it the nationality of individual bishops, or the nationality of the diocese? What is clear is that these two categories confuse many editors. There will need to be considerable adjustments to the subcategories if this is agreed. I think Bishops in Foo is clearer than Fooish bishops. For individuals where their nationality is significant, and different from location, we could use Fooish clergy.
Rathfelder (
talk)
19:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment - there are a lot more bishops: see
Category:American bishops. This nom, if fully implemented, would clog up cfd for an eternity. I think a bishop is both 'fooish' and 'in bar':
John Sentamu is Ugandan (and presumably British) and seems reasonably categorised. (I expect a bishop in a country will be obliged to become a citizen thereof.)
Oculi (
talk)
20:51, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The difference between these trees really is in people who migrated from the country of birth to the country where they became a bishop. As nominator pointed out in another discussion, "FOOIAN bishop" for the country of birth is factually wrong. Having said that, this nomination does not take the right order imho. We cannot merge e.g.
Category:Eastern Orthodox bishops by nationality when we have not dissolved its by-nationality subcategories yet or when we are not dissolving them simultaneously with the top category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
It is true that this is quite a complex undertaking, but there seems to be a good deal of agreement that it is desireable. I think the main argument for me is that the categories are not self explanatory and so dont work as two separate hierarchies. The vast majority of the nationality categories I've looked at (and these may be unrepresentative, but still a significant number) are largely populated by expatriate/emigrant clergy categorised by their diocese. Some of them stay for good and some go back home. Not a single one has mentioned citizenship. I certainly dont see any suggestion that they are obliged to change their citizenship.
John Sentamu is unusual in that he came from Africa to the UK and so is notable for that. Thousands went the other way and were therefore not notable as migrants.
Rathfelder (
talk)
00:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- We should aim mainly to have categories of the target type, which tend to be categories of bishops by diocese, where they served, which is what is important. There is also scope for categories for individual bishops by national origin where this is not where they were serving. This applies to missionary bishops in Africa (often British for Anglicans; Irish for Catholics), including a recent Dean of Lichfield, who had been a bishop somewhere in Africa; earlier there were a lot more.
John Sentamu was (I think) ordained while in exile; I expect that he was naturalised British. There was also a Bishop of Rochester, who was a convert from Islam and probably of Pakistani extraction. These are worth picking out by having a separate tree for bishops serving other than in the country of their birth (or something like that). However, this is probably a case that will have to be kept open when there is an agreed solution, for manual alteration of categories in such multi-national cases: it can only be closed when some one can assure us that all cases such as Sentamu's have been appropriately recategorised.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
00:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Support This goes against my votes in all previous, similar nominations. But I've come round to seeing that nationality is too problematic and that geography (of the diocese) is much more reliable. Let us cater for Irish men who go to Australia and become bishops there or Englishmen who go to Darkest Africa and become bishops there as exceptions with suitable "Ex pat bishops of Foo" categories.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment whatever is picked, please make it time-period agnostic and differentiate between ethnicity and citizenship. Imagine a subject of the Hapsburg Monarchy who was an ethnic Ukrainian and became a priest in in Poland and later a bishop in the the Soviet Union before escaping to Canada, not serving as bishop there but becoming a Canadian citizen, then retiring to the USA but never becoming an American citizen. This person could be called a Austrian- Ukrainian- Polish- Soviet-, Canadian- or American- bishop, but with a slightly different meaning in each case (birthplace, ethnicity, citizenship, place of work while bishop, etc.). Be clear which one you intend! --
Kevlar (
talk •
contribs)
16:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
think we should deal primarily with denomination and location, as far as bishops go. I dont think you can become a bishop without being a priest first, at least not in modern times, so if we want to categorise them by nationality or ethnicity they can be dealt with that way. NB in the 19th century, at least in the Anglican churches, almost all bishops outside the UK were expatriates. The notable ones are the first bishops of local origin. I've been through more than a thousand articles about bishops now and not a single one has said anything about changing nationality.
Rathfelder (
talk)
23:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I think the nom. is well done as I think the diocese is more important than the citizenship of the bishop. However, we have parallel trees for the Roman Catholics:
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by nationality (which is presumably by citizenship, and which subcategories can also be subcategories of nationality by occupation, etc.) and
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by country (which is presumably by diocese and can be put as subcategories of people from type categories). I think that creating that parallel for the other denominations is preferable per Rathfelder's comment (excluding ethnicity) and merging
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by country to
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by diocese makes clear that it is where they minister not what papers they carry that is being categorized. And make the other denominations match that formulation.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm inclined to agree with
Carlossuarez46 but I havent done much work on other denominations yet. There could be significant differences. But more importantly I dont want this exercise to become impossibly large and complex.
Rathfelder (
talk)
20:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Rathfelder: when reading the above comments I would conclude there is support in principle. But this nomination can only be a very modest starting point. So what is your further plan?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:34, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I was thinking of examining individual countries and nationalities to see what the implications would be. The three denomination categories above for renaming should be relatively straightforward, as should most small countries, but I suspect the USA and the Roman Catholic Church may be more difficult. For many smaller countries we can just rename Fooish bishops to Bishops in Foo. If the principle is agreed this can be done speedily. Then we will need to think about the implications for other sorts of Christian clergy. Sadly I dont get the impression that most editors who write ecclesiastical articles are very interested in categorisation, which is a pity as I certainly dont regard myself as an expert in this area.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Ok then support despite my earlier objection against the wrong order of nominating. The situation of having a nationality and a country category of the same country as siblings will only be temporary.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
03:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Bishops are almost all categorised by diocese, and the dioceses should all be then put into a country - though because people get confused between countries and nationality some will need to be altered. This is more of an issue for
Category:Bishops by century.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I think we should also change the country categories so that they are like "Bishops in Foo", to make it clearer that this is not about nationality.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Procedural oppose If we want to do this we need to nominate both these and all the child categories as a group. If we are going to go for the targets we need to rename all the child categories to use in, and we need to do this all at once and have all the categories tagged so as many people as possible will be notified. We cannot do this to the parent and not rename the child categories to conform.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I dont think that is a practical possibility. Nor do I think it necessary. Because "Nationality" is ambiguous in this context - its not clear whether it is supposed to be the nationality of the bishop or of the diocese - most of the subcategories are a mix of the two, and far more are the nationality of the diocese than of the individual (where they are different). The point of the nomination is to try and unscramble the mess.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Invincible Overlord songs
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: 9 of the entries are redirects to the artist's page. The remaining entry
Bathwater (song) is not a redirect, it is a song by
No Doubt which was then remixed by
Invincible Overlord. The redirects serve no navigational assistance, the question remains whether remixes should appear in the XXX songs category?
Richhoncho (
talk)
19:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete – You're right. I apologize for even making this category in the first place. For the record, I only added
Bathwater (song) because the remix charted in various territories, and I would not normally include those categories for song remixes.
Carbrera (
talk)
21:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC).reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Judges of the Tripura High Court
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. Although it is not technically incorrect to refer to justices of any court as judges (justices being a type of judge), we have uniformly in other categories reflected the use of "Justices" as formal titles for high court judges.
BD2412T04:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Welsh Christian ministers
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Suggest merging both to
Category:Welsh Christian clergy, which can cover Catholic priests as well. The target is mainly the Anglican Church of Wales (except the evangelical category); the subject non-conformist denominations. I do not think we need the split.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
00:48, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment The category seems to include people whose title is 'minister' which is not the only title held by Protestant clergy (see
Category:Welsh priests which includes the subcategory
Category:Anglican priests and a bunch of folks who seem to be from other Protestant denominations. I don't think that a category for those folks who have a particular title (minister) vs. another analogous (priest or clergyman/clergywoman) one is appropriate per
WP:SHAREDNAME.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:33, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated. They should already be individually categorized by denomination, no need for over-specialization. Don't see a need for distinguishing Anglicans from others at this level, but there is a well developed tree separating Protestants from various Catholic variants. While many evangelicals view Anglicans and Lutherans and Presbyterians as warmed over Catholics, we don't need to appease them here. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
13:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Magnesia (regional unit)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case except
Volos (125,000 people),
Sourpi (3,000 people) and
Zagora, Greece (2,000 people). The nomination includes
Category:People from Milies with 5 people however the last one is actually from a village in the neighbourhood. This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:44, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Messenia
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case
Kalamata (55,000 people),
Messini (6,000 people),
Gargalianoi (5,500 people) and
Kyparissia (6,000 people). The nomination includes
Category:People from Koroni with 5 articles, however 2 of which are about people from villages in the neighbourhood. This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:33, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The area from Koroni's center to Agios Georgios is continuously inhabited, just pointing it out for future reference. Falanthi does seem to be dependent on Koroni, but is a different settlement. --
Antondimak (
talk)
14:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
As I have said it is difficult to ascertain which communities are independent settlements and which are neighbourhoods (which is partly why I said municipal units should be used). In this case you can check Google Maps. The area from Koroni's center to Agios Georgios is continuously inhabited. --
Antondimak (
talk)
15:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Pella (regional unit)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case
Giannitsa (30,000 people),
Edessa, Greece (19,000 people) and
Aridaia (7,000 people). This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Then why nominate
Category:People from Pella? It is a populated place with 20 members. If, instead of being ancient, 19 out of those people were sportpeople, and "Sportspeople from Pella" was made, would "People from Pella" by upmerged? It is a similar situation. --
Antondimak (
talk)
15:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
He is from the same area, and that's how he is categorised. There are 20 people from Pella in Wikipedia (at least those currently categorised). I don't see how 19 of them being ancient makes the category non-viable. The reason the subcategory exists is to make this difference clearer, but it doesn't influence the parent category. --
Antondimak (
talk)
21:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't understand what the problem is with the category right now. It doesn't have 1 member, it has 20. It's just that 19 of them are further categorised because of another similar attribute (the time during which they lived). It's like when we categorise people from a place based on their occupation. We don't delete the category later for being small, just because we created more subcategories and there are less direct members. (I also just translated the lead of an article about an MP from Pella, so Misirkov isn't alone anymore). --
Antondimak (
talk)
22:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Even container categories are a thing, because it seems to be generally agreed that categories like this do aid navigation, but whatever. If it's necessary, merging "Ancient Pellans" to "People from Pella" would be better. --
Antondimak (
talk)
07:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge All These small categories or empty layers do not aid navigation. No objection to recreating any town that gets up to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
01:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Spirituals
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Newly-created category that largely duplicates existing
Category:African-American spiritual songs. There could be an argument for a C2D reverse merger given the main article is at
Spirituals and starts with "Spirituals (also known as Negro spirituals, Spiritual music, or African-American spirituals)". However
Spiritual is a dab so there is an anti-dab argument in favour of the longer title for the category.
Le Deluge (
talk)
12:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Canadian Anglican Church in North America members
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Living assistant bishops in the Church of England
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per Marcocapelle or
Category:Honorary assistant bishops in the Church of England or possibly disperse. In sampling, I found this was a miscellany of (1) Bishops of small churches in Europe in Communion with CofE but not part of an Anglican province (2) retired CofE bishops who still minister as bishops (doing confirmations and institutions), sometimes having been a missionary overseas (3) possibly one or two more.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Recipients of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The
Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order was ostensibly a military award of the German Grand Duchy of Baden although its actual usage was broader:
1: Soldiers from Baden: I could imagine this group being defined by the award but, in practice, it get's mentioned in passing and the Iron Cross is more prominent (
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7).
3: Foreign Male Royals who Married into the Baden Royal Family: Not even close to being defining (
12,
13,
14,
15).
4: De Facto Campaign Medal: Some foreign career soldiers fought briefly in Baden (
16,
17,
18,
19,
20,
21).
5: No Clear Connection to Baden: This isn't an outlier, the almost half of the articles mention the award but make no other mention of Baden. Maybe it was a diplomatic award, maybe it was given to allies, but whatever the reasons it's not defining because it doesn't even come up. (22-39)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Bialik Prize recipients
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The city government of Tel Aviv, Israel gives out a pair of
Bialik Prizes each year, one for Hebrew literature an one for Jewish thought. (The top career award for both specialties is likely the national
Israel Prize, which has
specific categories for both Hebrew literature and Jewish thought.) This local award is typically listed in passing with other honours so it doesn't seem defining in articles like
Moshe Shamir,
Moshe Idel or any others you want to click on. The category contents are already listified right
here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:06, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Yes the whole tree might be revisited. As for renaming this category in particular, both A and B are good renaming options, but upmerge is the better option per
WP:OCEGRS.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Upmerge this is not a case were ERGS rules justify having a sex specific category. If the parent categories are not applicable, why in the world are they parents?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:02, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: For bishops location is far more significant than nationality, and its not clear what nationality is meant - is it the nationality of individual bishops, or the nationality of the diocese? What is clear is that these two categories confuse many editors. There will need to be considerable adjustments to the subcategories if this is agreed. I think Bishops in Foo is clearer than Fooish bishops. For individuals where their nationality is significant, and different from location, we could use Fooish clergy.
Rathfelder (
talk)
19:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment - there are a lot more bishops: see
Category:American bishops. This nom, if fully implemented, would clog up cfd for an eternity. I think a bishop is both 'fooish' and 'in bar':
John Sentamu is Ugandan (and presumably British) and seems reasonably categorised. (I expect a bishop in a country will be obliged to become a citizen thereof.)
Oculi (
talk)
20:51, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The difference between these trees really is in people who migrated from the country of birth to the country where they became a bishop. As nominator pointed out in another discussion, "FOOIAN bishop" for the country of birth is factually wrong. Having said that, this nomination does not take the right order imho. We cannot merge e.g.
Category:Eastern Orthodox bishops by nationality when we have not dissolved its by-nationality subcategories yet or when we are not dissolving them simultaneously with the top category.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:58, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
It is true that this is quite a complex undertaking, but there seems to be a good deal of agreement that it is desireable. I think the main argument for me is that the categories are not self explanatory and so dont work as two separate hierarchies. The vast majority of the nationality categories I've looked at (and these may be unrepresentative, but still a significant number) are largely populated by expatriate/emigrant clergy categorised by their diocese. Some of them stay for good and some go back home. Not a single one has mentioned citizenship. I certainly dont see any suggestion that they are obliged to change their citizenship.
John Sentamu is unusual in that he came from Africa to the UK and so is notable for that. Thousands went the other way and were therefore not notable as migrants.
Rathfelder (
talk)
00:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment -- We should aim mainly to have categories of the target type, which tend to be categories of bishops by diocese, where they served, which is what is important. There is also scope for categories for individual bishops by national origin where this is not where they were serving. This applies to missionary bishops in Africa (often British for Anglicans; Irish for Catholics), including a recent Dean of Lichfield, who had been a bishop somewhere in Africa; earlier there were a lot more.
John Sentamu was (I think) ordained while in exile; I expect that he was naturalised British. There was also a Bishop of Rochester, who was a convert from Islam and probably of Pakistani extraction. These are worth picking out by having a separate tree for bishops serving other than in the country of their birth (or something like that). However, this is probably a case that will have to be kept open when there is an agreed solution, for manual alteration of categories in such multi-national cases: it can only be closed when some one can assure us that all cases such as Sentamu's have been appropriately recategorised.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
00:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Support This goes against my votes in all previous, similar nominations. But I've come round to seeing that nationality is too problematic and that geography (of the diocese) is much more reliable. Let us cater for Irish men who go to Australia and become bishops there or Englishmen who go to Darkest Africa and become bishops there as exceptions with suitable "Ex pat bishops of Foo" categories.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
10:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment whatever is picked, please make it time-period agnostic and differentiate between ethnicity and citizenship. Imagine a subject of the Hapsburg Monarchy who was an ethnic Ukrainian and became a priest in in Poland and later a bishop in the the Soviet Union before escaping to Canada, not serving as bishop there but becoming a Canadian citizen, then retiring to the USA but never becoming an American citizen. This person could be called a Austrian- Ukrainian- Polish- Soviet-, Canadian- or American- bishop, but with a slightly different meaning in each case (birthplace, ethnicity, citizenship, place of work while bishop, etc.). Be clear which one you intend! --
Kevlar (
talk •
contribs)
16:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
think we should deal primarily with denomination and location, as far as bishops go. I dont think you can become a bishop without being a priest first, at least not in modern times, so if we want to categorise them by nationality or ethnicity they can be dealt with that way. NB in the 19th century, at least in the Anglican churches, almost all bishops outside the UK were expatriates. The notable ones are the first bishops of local origin. I've been through more than a thousand articles about bishops now and not a single one has said anything about changing nationality.
Rathfelder (
talk)
23:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment I think the nom. is well done as I think the diocese is more important than the citizenship of the bishop. However, we have parallel trees for the Roman Catholics:
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by nationality (which is presumably by citizenship, and which subcategories can also be subcategories of nationality by occupation, etc.) and
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by country (which is presumably by diocese and can be put as subcategories of people from type categories). I think that creating that parallel for the other denominations is preferable per Rathfelder's comment (excluding ethnicity) and merging
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by country to
Category:Roman Catholic bishops by diocese makes clear that it is where they minister not what papers they carry that is being categorized. And make the other denominations match that formulation.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm inclined to agree with
Carlossuarez46 but I havent done much work on other denominations yet. There could be significant differences. But more importantly I dont want this exercise to become impossibly large and complex.
Rathfelder (
talk)
20:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Rathfelder: when reading the above comments I would conclude there is support in principle. But this nomination can only be a very modest starting point. So what is your further plan?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:34, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I was thinking of examining individual countries and nationalities to see what the implications would be. The three denomination categories above for renaming should be relatively straightforward, as should most small countries, but I suspect the USA and the Roman Catholic Church may be more difficult. For many smaller countries we can just rename Fooish bishops to Bishops in Foo. If the principle is agreed this can be done speedily. Then we will need to think about the implications for other sorts of Christian clergy. Sadly I dont get the impression that most editors who write ecclesiastical articles are very interested in categorisation, which is a pity as I certainly dont regard myself as an expert in this area.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:02, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Ok then support despite my earlier objection against the wrong order of nominating. The situation of having a nationality and a country category of the same country as siblings will only be temporary.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
03:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Bishops are almost all categorised by diocese, and the dioceses should all be then put into a country - though because people get confused between countries and nationality some will need to be altered. This is more of an issue for
Category:Bishops by century.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I think we should also change the country categories so that they are like "Bishops in Foo", to make it clearer that this is not about nationality.
Rathfelder (
talk)
10:50, 6 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Procedural oppose If we want to do this we need to nominate both these and all the child categories as a group. If we are going to go for the targets we need to rename all the child categories to use in, and we need to do this all at once and have all the categories tagged so as many people as possible will be notified. We cannot do this to the parent and not rename the child categories to conform.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:04, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I dont think that is a practical possibility. Nor do I think it necessary. Because "Nationality" is ambiguous in this context - its not clear whether it is supposed to be the nationality of the bishop or of the diocese - most of the subcategories are a mix of the two, and far more are the nationality of the diocese than of the individual (where they are different). The point of the nomination is to try and unscramble the mess.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Invincible Overlord songs
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: 9 of the entries are redirects to the artist's page. The remaining entry
Bathwater (song) is not a redirect, it is a song by
No Doubt which was then remixed by
Invincible Overlord. The redirects serve no navigational assistance, the question remains whether remixes should appear in the XXX songs category?
Richhoncho (
talk)
19:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete – You're right. I apologize for even making this category in the first place. For the record, I only added
Bathwater (song) because the remix charted in various territories, and I would not normally include those categories for song remixes.
Carbrera (
talk)
21:02, 28 February 2021 (UTC).reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Judges of the Tripura High Court
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. Although it is not technically incorrect to refer to justices of any court as judges (justices being a type of judge), we have uniformly in other categories reflected the use of "Justices" as formal titles for high court judges.
BD2412T04:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Welsh Christian ministers
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Suggest merging both to
Category:Welsh Christian clergy, which can cover Catholic priests as well. The target is mainly the Anglican Church of Wales (except the evangelical category); the subject non-conformist denominations. I do not think we need the split.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
00:48, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment The category seems to include people whose title is 'minister' which is not the only title held by Protestant clergy (see
Category:Welsh priests which includes the subcategory
Category:Anglican priests and a bunch of folks who seem to be from other Protestant denominations. I don't think that a category for those folks who have a particular title (minister) vs. another analogous (priest or clergyman/clergywoman) one is appropriate per
WP:SHAREDNAME.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:33, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge as nominated. They should already be individually categorized by denomination, no need for over-specialization. Don't see a need for distinguishing Anglicans from others at this level, but there is a well developed tree separating Protestants from various Catholic variants. While many evangelicals view Anglicans and Lutherans and Presbyterians as warmed over Catholics, we don't need to appease them here. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
13:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Magnesia (regional unit)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case except
Volos (125,000 people),
Sourpi (3,000 people) and
Zagora, Greece (2,000 people). The nomination includes
Category:People from Milies with 5 people however the last one is actually from a village in the neighbourhood. This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:44, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Messenia
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case
Kalamata (55,000 people),
Messini (6,000 people),
Gargalianoi (5,500 people) and
Kyparissia (6,000 people). The nomination includes
Category:People from Koroni with 5 articles, however 2 of which are about people from villages in the neighbourhood. This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:33, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The area from Koroni's center to Agios Georgios is continuously inhabited, just pointing it out for future reference. Falanthi does seem to be dependent on Koroni, but is a different settlement. --
Antondimak (
talk)
14:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
As I have said it is difficult to ascertain which communities are independent settlements and which are neighbourhoods (which is partly why I said municipal units should be used). In this case you can check Google Maps. The area from Koroni's center to Agios Georgios is continuously inhabited. --
Antondimak (
talk)
15:18, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
People from Pella (regional unit)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, this concerns categorization by 3rd and 4th level administrative divisions of Greece, leading to a endless series of single-article or 2-article categories. The proposal is to merge to 2nd level administrative division, except cities and larger towns, in this case
Giannitsa (30,000 people),
Edessa, Greece (19,000 people) and
Aridaia (7,000 people). This is follow-up on
this earlier nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
Then why nominate
Category:People from Pella? It is a populated place with 20 members. If, instead of being ancient, 19 out of those people were sportpeople, and "Sportspeople from Pella" was made, would "People from Pella" by upmerged? It is a similar situation. --
Antondimak (
talk)
15:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
He is from the same area, and that's how he is categorised. There are 20 people from Pella in Wikipedia (at least those currently categorised). I don't see how 19 of them being ancient makes the category non-viable. The reason the subcategory exists is to make this difference clearer, but it doesn't influence the parent category. --
Antondimak (
talk)
21:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I don't understand what the problem is with the category right now. It doesn't have 1 member, it has 20. It's just that 19 of them are further categorised because of another similar attribute (the time during which they lived). It's like when we categorise people from a place based on their occupation. We don't delete the category later for being small, just because we created more subcategories and there are less direct members. (I also just translated the lead of an article about an MP from Pella, so Misirkov isn't alone anymore). --
Antondimak (
talk)
22:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Even container categories are a thing, because it seems to be generally agreed that categories like this do aid navigation, but whatever. If it's necessary, merging "Ancient Pellans" to "People from Pella" would be better. --
Antondimak (
talk)
07:16, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Merge All These small categories or empty layers do not aid navigation. No objection to recreating any town that gets up to 5+ direct articles. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
01:29, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Spirituals
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Newly-created category that largely duplicates existing
Category:African-American spiritual songs. There could be an argument for a C2D reverse merger given the main article is at
Spirituals and starts with "Spirituals (also known as Negro spirituals, Spiritual music, or African-American spirituals)". However
Spiritual is a dab so there is an anti-dab argument in favour of the longer title for the category.
Le Deluge (
talk)
12:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Canadian Anglican Church in North America members
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Living assistant bishops in the Church of England
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per Marcocapelle or
Category:Honorary assistant bishops in the Church of England or possibly disperse. In sampling, I found this was a miscellany of (1) Bishops of small churches in Europe in Communion with CofE but not part of an Anglican province (2) retired CofE bishops who still minister as bishops (doing confirmations and institutions), sometimes having been a missionary overseas (3) possibly one or two more.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
19:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Recipients of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The
Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order was ostensibly a military award of the German Grand Duchy of Baden although its actual usage was broader:
1: Soldiers from Baden: I could imagine this group being defined by the award but, in practice, it get's mentioned in passing and the Iron Cross is more prominent (
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7).
3: Foreign Male Royals who Married into the Baden Royal Family: Not even close to being defining (
12,
13,
14,
15).
4: De Facto Campaign Medal: Some foreign career soldiers fought briefly in Baden (
16,
17,
18,
19,
20,
21).
5: No Clear Connection to Baden: This isn't an outlier, the almost half of the articles mention the award but make no other mention of Baden. Maybe it was a diplomatic award, maybe it was given to allies, but whatever the reasons it's not defining because it doesn't even come up. (22-39)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Bialik Prize recipients
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The city government of Tel Aviv, Israel gives out a pair of
Bialik Prizes each year, one for Hebrew literature an one for Jewish thought. (The top career award for both specialties is likely the national
Israel Prize, which has
specific categories for both Hebrew literature and Jewish thought.) This local award is typically listed in passing with other honours so it doesn't seem defining in articles like
Moshe Shamir,
Moshe Idel or any others you want to click on. The category contents are already listified right
here in the main article for any reader interested in the topic. -
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:06, 28 February 2021 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.