The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rationale: The sports covered in these categories are
Gaelic games and the organisation involved (or at least one of them) is the
Gaelic Athletic Association.
Changing the parents before cfd (see BHG below) and rendering the tree incomprehensible is to be deplored. GAA should be expanded.
Oculi (
talk)
11:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose per BHG. Gaelic games and GAA are not quite the same thing, and this would make that change. I would not necessarily be opposed to spelling out GAA as Gaelic Athletic Association.
SportingFlyerT·C04:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Question. I am totally ignorant about the topic but I can see that
User:BrownHairedGirl's oppose makes sense from a logical point of view. Yet I wonder, wouldn't the inclusion of higher level categories in this nomination lead to a more satisfactory outcome of this discussion than a simple "keep"?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by fuel exhaustion
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose These are not the same thing and are different enough that they can be categorised separately. Exhaustion is effectively a subset of starvation.
SportingFlyerT·C04:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose per SportingFlyer, but purge of articles where fuel exhaustion was not the actual the cause of the incident (e.g. if the crew were incapacited and the aircraft flew on until out of fuel) and cross-link the categories. DexDor(talk)06:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Rap gods
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Airstrikes by perpetrator
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Films set in Latveria
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Delete, the place of setting is not defining at all in this case. Latveria is just a random name and not relevant for the story line.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Weak merge I'm not at all swayed by the argument that we should distinguish companies founded in the Czech Republic with ones founded in Czechoslovakia, looking specifically at the "establishments in Russia" categories. However, there's only one company in the Czech Republic classified by year right now, so the upmerge - even though it's in a valid series - makes sense at this time.
SportingFlyerT·C01:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Brownbuls
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: The category text includes "This category lists birds traditionally referred to as "brownbuls", regardless of their actual relationships." - hence SHAREDNAME applies. Note: The lack of any interwiki links is a further indication that this is specific to English language names. See e.g.
Grackles CFD. DexDor(talk)11:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:First Secretaries of the Moscow City Committee of the CPSU
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
@
Place Clichy and
Rathfelder: trying to revive this discussion. Of the 13 first secretaries in this category there are only two articles which elaborate on what these people have done or achieved while they were first secretary, namely:
Nikita Khrushchev and
Boris Yeltsin. And as you know, these two people are known way better for their later career. In most cases the function of first secretary is mentioned without any further comments, and in some shorter articles it is not even mentioned at all, e.g. in
Karl Bauman. I really think that this is not a defining function.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
13:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
From my limited understanding of the Soviet Union I would agree with you. The real bosses generally assembled a load of titles, just as English kings used to. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Rathfelder (
talk •
contribs) 13:25, 6 June 2020
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Adding sibling and parent category to nomination
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon09:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Saar people in sports
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: This would empty
Category:Saar people by occupation, which seems to be designed for people from the shortlived
Saar Protectorate. There seems to be some sense in the sport categories, as there were national teams from the protectorate, but it doesnt seem to be necessary to have wider categorisation, especially as it is completely ambiguous,
Saarland now being one of the German states.
Rathfelder (
talk)
18:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete this category, as well as subcat
Category:Saar sports coaches and its lone subcat
Category:Saar football managers, which I have tagged. While it may be helpful to have categories for sportspeople who have represented the Saar Protectorate back when it existed, football managers are not such representatives, and neither of the subjects of the two articles under the category were managers during the time of the protectorate. I'd also say there's a case for re-creating
Category:Saar sportspeople, which was manually emptied, with the clear scope of sportspeople who have internationally represented the protectorate, to clearly separate the nationality tree from the location tree. --
Paul_012 (
talk)
23:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge Saar is not a nationality or ethnicity. Saarland was for a short period a separate polity (protectorate), but it will be much more satisfactory to treat it as having continuity with the German state. All Saar categories should be merged to equivalent Saarland ones.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. I fail to understand how sports coaches are not sportspeople, especially given that most coaches are former competitors (as is the case with both those in the Saarland coaches category).
Grutness...wha?23:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, do not delete, people represented Saar in international sports for a short time, though I do think there needs to be some pruning. (Also, looking though the people in the cat, our notability standards for Olympians are way too low, but I digress.)
SportingFlyerT·C01:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Christians of medieval Islam
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:no consensus; the comments in support of merger were apparently written when these categories contained very few articles, but they are now better populated with 10, 4 and 19 member pages respectively. There is scope for a fresh nomination of
Category:Christians of Al-Andalus for merger to
Category:Mozarabic people as these appear to have the same scope (along with its parent, see the discussion below). I considered merging the Rashidun category as a
WP:SOFTDELETE, i.e. with permission to re-create it if more members can be found, but instead I am leaving it for now as some pages were only added yesterday by
Mugsalot (
talk·contribs); if it remains at only 4 pages then I suggest a re-nomination later for merger to multiple parents, which should include
Category:Christianity in the Rashidun Caliphate. –
FayenaticLondon10:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, the three categories contain only 4 articles together and although I presume that some expansion is possible I don't expect they will ever grow to big categories. For Al-Andalus a second merge target is not needed because the one article is already in
Category:People of the Emirate of Córdoba.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Listed categories are less than 2 months old and were clearly created as placeholders. They don't even include dozens of existing articles in the Wiki that clearly belong in that category (one example out of many,
Category:Translators of medieval Islam many of whom were Christians). Also, I seriously question the claim by OP that they will never grow. The Rashidun caliphate spanned 30 years, Umayyad 90 years and Al-Andalus around 800 years. I'm sure there are many people in those empires that are yet to be tagged. The
category for Christians under Abbasid Caliphate lists 45 pages and the Fatimid caliphate currently has around 15 articles (
Category:Copts in the Fatimid Caliphate).
Al-Andalusi (
talk)
17:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Al-Andalusi: nice catch, thanks. I have changed the merge target accordingly, assuming that Christians of Al-Andalus are equivalent to Mozarab people. That is correct, isn't it?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Christianity in the medieval Islamic world
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Support Dating "by century" or "by period" is best. Dating by ruling dynasty is not usually a good idea. That includes "Elizabethan era" dating.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
18:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
OpposeWP:SMALLCAT has been cited above as evidence to delete. However, if anyone actually takes the time to read SMALLCAT they will see that "this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth ... may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time". Therefore keep as per SMALLCAT.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
At a guess, I would anticipate that the category growth rate would be modest but SMALLCAT only says "realistic potential for growth", not "realistic potential for speedy growth".
Greenshed (
talk)
16:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
There are potentially an infinite number of very small categories with no prospect for growth that might be created or proposed. For example, there was
only one Royal New Zealand Air Force air marshal of World War II and so by any measure
Category:Royal New Zealand Air Force air marshals of World War II would be a bad idea. SMALLCAT is meaningful and practical as it stands; it just does not suit the purposes of the nominator.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Well, it does not match with the way I read it. 'Realistic growth potential' should mean, imho, that there is a 'specific reason for growth of this particular category'. I maintain that otherwise it is a pretty meaningless phrase.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:06, 11 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Greenshed and
Marcocapelle: Rather than disagreeing with each other, I think our joint target should be the lousy
WP:SMALLCAT editing guideline. How many articles do you need before it's not small, what does a realistic potential for growth mean in practice, and why do we encourage the rapid fire creation of dozens of useless categories that automatically become untouchable because they are now "part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme"? These arguments have been going on for years in CFD and
WP:SMALLCAT's poor wording seems to create conflict rather than consensus.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
21:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Personally I didn't think the disagreement above was really a bad thing. More importantly, I take it, @
RevelationDirect:, that it you want to get rid / merge of all the categories nominated, including
Category:Christianity in the Fatimid Caliphate even though it contains 5 articles directly and a further 15 in its sub-cat? I'd say that was quite a hard line on what constitutes a non-viably small category. How many article does a category need before, in your view it's useful? Personally, I'm ok with five as it supports the reader's navigation around related content.
Greenshed (
talk)
13:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oh, I didn't take it as anything other than a sincere discussion by two editors trying to make the encyclopedia better. But was
WP:SMALLCAT helpful in reaching a consensus? (I agree on the 5 article cutoff and updated my vote above, having only clicked on 2 originally.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
19:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I tend to the view that 5+ articles and were viable while under 5 and it depends (growth potential, part of a category scheme etc) but would note that it's been hard to get consensus on these numbers in the part which is why SMALLCAT is not specific. Incidentally, I was just taking a look at
Christians and Others in the Umayyad State for an indication of growth potential.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are Islamic states, and the history of these states is usually written from the dominant Muslim perspective. Christianity is therefore a very distinct topic in these early Muslim states/societies, which each of these states treated differently (most notably the Fatimids, who even had Christian viziers, but the Andalusi experience is also entirely different from that of the eastern caliphates). Each of these states was home to different Christian communities, from the Copts to the Nestorians and the Melkites, each of which has its own history and traditions under these regimes. This in turn leads to highly specialized modern studies in this area, which cannot be done justice by upmerging to over-generic categories.
WP:SMALLCAT is furthermore entirely inapplicable here. Yes, the categories are underpopulated, but they definitely are a long way from being exhausted.
Constantine ✍ 21:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rationale: The sports covered in these categories are
Gaelic games and the organisation involved (or at least one of them) is the
Gaelic Athletic Association.
Changing the parents before cfd (see BHG below) and rendering the tree incomprehensible is to be deplored. GAA should be expanded.
Oculi (
talk)
11:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose per BHG. Gaelic games and GAA are not quite the same thing, and this would make that change. I would not necessarily be opposed to spelling out GAA as Gaelic Athletic Association.
SportingFlyerT·C04:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Question. I am totally ignorant about the topic but I can see that
User:BrownHairedGirl's oppose makes sense from a logical point of view. Yet I wonder, wouldn't the inclusion of higher level categories in this nomination lead to a more satisfactory outcome of this discussion than a simple "keep"?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
07:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Aviation accidents and incidents caused by fuel exhaustion
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose These are not the same thing and are different enough that they can be categorised separately. Exhaustion is effectively a subset of starvation.
SportingFlyerT·C04:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose per SportingFlyer, but purge of articles where fuel exhaustion was not the actual the cause of the incident (e.g. if the crew were incapacited and the aircraft flew on until out of fuel) and cross-link the categories. DexDor(talk)06:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Rap gods
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Airstrikes by perpetrator
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Films set in Latveria
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Delete, the place of setting is not defining at all in this case. Latveria is just a random name and not relevant for the story line.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Weak merge I'm not at all swayed by the argument that we should distinguish companies founded in the Czech Republic with ones founded in Czechoslovakia, looking specifically at the "establishments in Russia" categories. However, there's only one company in the Czech Republic classified by year right now, so the upmerge - even though it's in a valid series - makes sense at this time.
SportingFlyerT·C01:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Brownbuls
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: The category text includes "This category lists birds traditionally referred to as "brownbuls", regardless of their actual relationships." - hence SHAREDNAME applies. Note: The lack of any interwiki links is a further indication that this is specific to English language names. See e.g.
Grackles CFD. DexDor(talk)11:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:First Secretaries of the Moscow City Committee of the CPSU
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
@
Place Clichy and
Rathfelder: trying to revive this discussion. Of the 13 first secretaries in this category there are only two articles which elaborate on what these people have done or achieved while they were first secretary, namely:
Nikita Khrushchev and
Boris Yeltsin. And as you know, these two people are known way better for their later career. In most cases the function of first secretary is mentioned without any further comments, and in some shorter articles it is not even mentioned at all, e.g. in
Karl Bauman. I really think that this is not a defining function.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
13:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)reply
From my limited understanding of the Soviet Union I would agree with you. The real bosses generally assembled a load of titles, just as English kings used to. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Rathfelder (
talk •
contribs) 13:25, 6 June 2020
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Adding sibling and parent category to nomination
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon09:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Saar people in sports
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: This would empty
Category:Saar people by occupation, which seems to be designed for people from the shortlived
Saar Protectorate. There seems to be some sense in the sport categories, as there were national teams from the protectorate, but it doesnt seem to be necessary to have wider categorisation, especially as it is completely ambiguous,
Saarland now being one of the German states.
Rathfelder (
talk)
18:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete this category, as well as subcat
Category:Saar sports coaches and its lone subcat
Category:Saar football managers, which I have tagged. While it may be helpful to have categories for sportspeople who have represented the Saar Protectorate back when it existed, football managers are not such representatives, and neither of the subjects of the two articles under the category were managers during the time of the protectorate. I'd also say there's a case for re-creating
Category:Saar sportspeople, which was manually emptied, with the clear scope of sportspeople who have internationally represented the protectorate, to clearly separate the nationality tree from the location tree. --
Paul_012 (
talk)
23:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge Saar is not a nationality or ethnicity. Saarland was for a short period a separate polity (protectorate), but it will be much more satisfactory to treat it as having continuity with the German state. All Saar categories should be merged to equivalent Saarland ones.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. I fail to understand how sports coaches are not sportspeople, especially given that most coaches are former competitors (as is the case with both those in the Saarland coaches category).
Grutness...wha?23:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom, do not delete, people represented Saar in international sports for a short time, though I do think there needs to be some pruning. (Also, looking though the people in the cat, our notability standards for Olympians are way too low, but I digress.)
SportingFlyerT·C01:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Christians of medieval Islam
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:no consensus; the comments in support of merger were apparently written when these categories contained very few articles, but they are now better populated with 10, 4 and 19 member pages respectively. There is scope for a fresh nomination of
Category:Christians of Al-Andalus for merger to
Category:Mozarabic people as these appear to have the same scope (along with its parent, see the discussion below). I considered merging the Rashidun category as a
WP:SOFTDELETE, i.e. with permission to re-create it if more members can be found, but instead I am leaving it for now as some pages were only added yesterday by
Mugsalot (
talk·contribs); if it remains at only 4 pages then I suggest a re-nomination later for merger to multiple parents, which should include
Category:Christianity in the Rashidun Caliphate. –
FayenaticLondon10:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: merge per
WP:SMALLCAT, the three categories contain only 4 articles together and although I presume that some expansion is possible I don't expect they will ever grow to big categories. For Al-Andalus a second merge target is not needed because the one article is already in
Category:People of the Emirate of Córdoba.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
11:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose: Listed categories are less than 2 months old and were clearly created as placeholders. They don't even include dozens of existing articles in the Wiki that clearly belong in that category (one example out of many,
Category:Translators of medieval Islam many of whom were Christians). Also, I seriously question the claim by OP that they will never grow. The Rashidun caliphate spanned 30 years, Umayyad 90 years and Al-Andalus around 800 years. I'm sure there are many people in those empires that are yet to be tagged. The
category for Christians under Abbasid Caliphate lists 45 pages and the Fatimid caliphate currently has around 15 articles (
Category:Copts in the Fatimid Caliphate).
Al-Andalusi (
talk)
17:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Al-Andalusi: nice catch, thanks. I have changed the merge target accordingly, assuming that Christians of Al-Andalus are equivalent to Mozarab people. That is correct, isn't it?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:26, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Christianity in the medieval Islamic world
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Support Dating "by century" or "by period" is best. Dating by ruling dynasty is not usually a good idea. That includes "Elizabethan era" dating.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
18:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
OpposeWP:SMALLCAT has been cited above as evidence to delete. However, if anyone actually takes the time to read SMALLCAT they will see that "this criterion does not preclude all small categories; a category which does have realistic potential for growth ... may be kept even if only a small number of its articles actually exist at the present time". Therefore keep as per SMALLCAT.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)reply
At a guess, I would anticipate that the category growth rate would be modest but SMALLCAT only says "realistic potential for growth", not "realistic potential for speedy growth".
Greenshed (
talk)
16:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC)reply
There are potentially an infinite number of very small categories with no prospect for growth that might be created or proposed. For example, there was
only one Royal New Zealand Air Force air marshal of World War II and so by any measure
Category:Royal New Zealand Air Force air marshals of World War II would be a bad idea. SMALLCAT is meaningful and practical as it stands; it just does not suit the purposes of the nominator.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Well, it does not match with the way I read it. 'Realistic growth potential' should mean, imho, that there is a 'specific reason for growth of this particular category'. I maintain that otherwise it is a pretty meaningless phrase.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
20:06, 11 June 2020 (UTC)reply
@
Greenshed and
Marcocapelle: Rather than disagreeing with each other, I think our joint target should be the lousy
WP:SMALLCAT editing guideline. How many articles do you need before it's not small, what does a realistic potential for growth mean in practice, and why do we encourage the rapid fire creation of dozens of useless categories that automatically become untouchable because they are now "part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme"? These arguments have been going on for years in CFD and
WP:SMALLCAT's poor wording seems to create conflict rather than consensus.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
21:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Personally I didn't think the disagreement above was really a bad thing. More importantly, I take it, @
RevelationDirect:, that it you want to get rid / merge of all the categories nominated, including
Category:Christianity in the Fatimid Caliphate even though it contains 5 articles directly and a further 15 in its sub-cat? I'd say that was quite a hard line on what constitutes a non-viably small category. How many article does a category need before, in your view it's useful? Personally, I'm ok with five as it supports the reader's navigation around related content.
Greenshed (
talk)
13:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oh, I didn't take it as anything other than a sincere discussion by two editors trying to make the encyclopedia better. But was
WP:SMALLCAT helpful in reaching a consensus? (I agree on the 5 article cutoff and updated my vote above, having only clicked on 2 originally.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
19:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Thanks. I tend to the view that 5+ articles and were viable while under 5 and it depends (growth potential, part of a category scheme etc) but would note that it's been hard to get consensus on these numbers in the part which is why SMALLCAT is not specific. Incidentally, I was just taking a look at
Christians and Others in the Umayyad State for an indication of growth potential.
Greenshed (
talk)
18:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are Islamic states, and the history of these states is usually written from the dominant Muslim perspective. Christianity is therefore a very distinct topic in these early Muslim states/societies, which each of these states treated differently (most notably the Fatimids, who even had Christian viziers, but the Andalusi experience is also entirely different from that of the eastern caliphates). Each of these states was home to different Christian communities, from the Copts to the Nestorians and the Melkites, each of which has its own history and traditions under these regimes. This in turn leads to highly specialized modern studies in this area, which cannot be done justice by upmerging to over-generic categories.
WP:SMALLCAT is furthermore entirely inapplicable here. Yes, the categories are underpopulated, but they definitely are a long way from being exhausted.
Constantine ✍ 21:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.