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I quite agree, but I'd like to know if the idea has any support before I spend a lot of time and effort doing that. Can we discuss the idea in principle first?
Rathfelder (
talk)
09:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The total amount of suicides in history is too large to have them all in one category. So as we need to subdivide them by at least one criterion, I think that by method is one of the better candidates, as it is directly related to the suicide topic.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Currently we have by method, by location and by occupation. There is no tree by cause, which is not surprising, that would be hard to define. It is surprising that there is not even a tree by nationality of the subject, instead there is a tree by location, which seems less relevant (in case someone commits suicide abroad).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
16:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
We have at least one cause. As I wrote in an earlier CfD:
Do we really want to categorize the reason for suicide? After all, a few categories like
Category:LGBT-related suicides will likely be fairly prevalent, but depression-related is inexplicably missing?
Moreover, why do we categorize suicides by Continent, and Country, and City?
We also categorize Death by Continent, and Country, and City. But the "suicide by" trees aren't merged with the "death by" trees.
A simpler approach might be limited to "yyyy death" or "yyyy murder" or "yyyy suicide",
Category:Deaths by cause with "Suicides by method" and "Murders by method" merged in the same tree there, and "death by location" limited to city. The city can be under country, and the country under continent. Kill all the other intersection trees. This is navigation, not intersection statistical tables.
With all due respect, you are too much in a hurry.
Category:Nazis who committed suicide by method should initially be merged to
Category:Nazis who committed suicide since that parent category still exists. Moreover this merge does not solve the existance of the by-method subcategories of Nazi suicides. Finally there should be a manual check that every article in every of its subcats is in a yyyy suicide category. Similar comments will apply to every of these nominations. This requires a very careful approach in order to avoid a
WP:TRAINWRECK.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Done tagging. Excellent thoughts! Agree that this doesn't fix Nazi sub-sub-categories; those will need to be unravelled later. Agree about ensuring every article should already be in
Category:Suicide by year. That should be true in any case, and can be done now! Do we have an available bot? William Allen Simpson (
talk)
15:08, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Another example why this is not easy:
Category:Suicides by firearm and parent
Category:Deaths by firearm are both subcatted by country. This implies you have to nominate all country subcategories. Don't fix this right now though! The point is that it is far better to start with separate nominations each dealing with one cause, and to think each nomination thoroughly through. Moreover you'd better start with the easiest causes (easy in terms of category tree complexity).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:38, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, I understood that we had also agreed to eliminate "by country" (above). But that should be a separate nomination. I'd thought this was easiest (only 16), as we've already had agreement and it would nicely group the by country for later nominations. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
15:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I dont think this scheme really works. Deaths by hanging on a gallows are much more defining than the DIY sort, and self-immolation is very different from other deaths in fires. I think I prefer a geographical/nationality based breakdown. But
Category:Suicide bombers should be kept, because that really is defining. Very few of the others are notable because of their suicide.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
It's all been prepared for choosing those individual methods.
So you want to keep Suicides by self-immolation and delete Deaths from fire?
And keep Suicide bombers subsubcategory, but delete parents Suicides by explosive device and Deaths by explosive device?
Also delete Suicides by hanging instead of merging?
Oppose some suicides are notable for their method; some aren't. I also dislike the upmerge proposal above, why do individual biographies of Nazis belong in
Category:Nazis by cause of death? And I think a meaningful difference can be drawn between those who die by various causes and those who suicide by those causes; particularly as we tend to categorize by cause of death as that which ends a life not as that by which someone chooses to end one's life. For some categories it's clear (not sure suicide by cancer is possible), but with the various deaths that are "accidental" (see
Category:Accidental deaths tree) we'll end up separating these out as suicides (like executions and murders) are not accidental.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Which means if you are killed in some other way, you only go in one category for dying in that year. But if you kill yourself we put you in two categories for dying in that year. Does this even make sense? We used to have an assasinations by year category, but we deleted that.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose - the above proposal would make many categories relating to how people died large and difficult to navigate. Talking about specific problematic categories should take place on individual nominations if appropriate.
Inter&anthro (
talk)
23:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films about nuclear accidents and incidents
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Nominator's rationale: Category appears to be intended for fictional nuclear incidents. I note that it has
Category:Nuclear accidents in fiction as a parent category, so either this category's name should be clarified or the tree needs to be restructured a bit. Alternately, the latter category could be created (and most entries moved to it), as a subcategory of the former.
DonIago (
talk)
17:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose, two articles and the subcategory are about a real accident instead of a fictional accident. Besides the category is too small for further subcatting. Rather expand the scope to also allow non-fiction.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Would you support removing "Nuclear accidents in fiction" as a parent category then? I'm amenable to that option, just forgot to bring it up in my OP.
DonIago (
talk)
15:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
In light of the above, I'll give it a couple more days in case other options present themselves. Otherwise I'll plan to withdraw this CfD and remove the fictional parent category. Thanks!
DonIago (
talk)
18:32, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete another "about" category with the usual problems: objectively defining how much about the subject must the film be and what reliable sources tell us it's at least that much?
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Italian painters by city
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Nominator's rationale: "Fooish" categories are generally reserved for national categories. People from Foo is generally used for anything below that level, and is used in all the other subcategories of
Category:Italian people by occupation and city. No obvious reason why Italian painters should be treated differently. The various categories contain comments along the lines of "This list encompasses Italian painters of the School of Brescia who during 1400-1900, demonstrate influences from both Venice and Milan." and "This category encompasses painters active in the Northern Italian city of Cremona". This is a bit confusing. If it's sensible to subcategorize by schools of painting then I think the categories should make that clearer. Perhaps they could be called "Painters of the Brescian School", along the lines of
Category:Schools of Japanese art? And at present
Category:Painters from Milan redirects to
Category:Milanese painters, so its not clear what we are supposed to do with those who were not "active in Milan between 1400-1800". NB I know nothing about Italian painting so would be grateful for guidance from those that do.
Rathfelder (
talk)
15:34, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Happy to Support as long as redirects are left from the existing names, which are what one might have thought of as the graceful and obvious labels, as opposed to the systematic but sadly lowest-common-denominator style names that are proposed.
Chiswick Chap (
talk)
16:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered Milanese mobsters
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Category:Sports events held in a bubble due to the COVID-19 pandemic
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Comment "bio-secure bubble" seems to be a term specific to India or the Commonwealth realm, although I don't oppose the renaming since the term is less ambiguous.
Hariboneagle927 (
talk)
16:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Lutheran congregations
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Category:1623 establishments in Europe — we categorize the starting year of "establishment", whatever that means. This is the only article in that category. Yes, Königsberg is in Europe. And probably in some part of Germany in that year?
Support in general -- We had a similar discussion about congregations in a part of England recently, where I supported a similar merger. On second thoughts I had a slight qualm about it. A congregation might be established at a different date from a church, where a church was rebuilt, particularly if on a new site. The consensus seems to be that articles are usually largely about church buildings and they should be categorised. The present St Paul's Cathedral in London was built after in the late 17th century after the Great Fire, but replaced a medieval church on the same site, itself probably a rebuild of a Saxon one. Thus it might be legitimate to categorise it as founded in 8th century.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Mild support. This is an improvement as congregations are not notable per se, but churches is more ambiguous than e.g. church buildings as it also refers to the larger church bodies. We therefore face the risk of seeing Lutheran church bodies added to these categories, as has been seen before. I also believe that categories for local churches/church buildings should be removed from "religious organizations" categories.
Place Clichy (
talk)
09:22, 24 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Mayors of places in Japan
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Category:Illegitimate children of Roman monarchs
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Merge Besides the Roman Emperors, the only other Roman monarchs were the semi-legendary Roman kings. And we do not have articles on their illegitimate children.
Dimadick (
talk)
18:24, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Illegitimate children of Ottoman sultans
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Comment -- I am not sure that "illegitimate" is quite the right term for the one individual, who was conceived to a concubine in the harem, but married to a bey before his birth. I would also comment that the lack of a (legitimate) sons category may be because sultans were at one period in the habit or killing all (half)-siblings on ascending the throne.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Children of sultans
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Category:Deniers of Serbian genocide in Croatia
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Nominator's rationale: This was misnamed in the recent renaming. Croatia and the Independent State of Croatia are two separate things. The latter was far larger than Croatia and included all of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of modern-day Serbia.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Carroll College (Montana)
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Rename Parent Cat/Keep Alumni Subcat Anyone who graduated from the Wisconsin school prior to 2008 will have reliable sources saying they graduated from "Carroll College" so I see this as highly ambiguous and renaming would lead to miscategorization. 12 years of renaming is probably plenty of time for other articles though.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:50, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:NZIA Gold Medal-winning buildings
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I quite agree, but I'd like to know if the idea has any support before I spend a lot of time and effort doing that. Can we discuss the idea in principle first?
Rathfelder (
talk)
09:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
The total amount of suicides in history is too large to have them all in one category. So as we need to subdivide them by at least one criterion, I think that by method is one of the better candidates, as it is directly related to the suicide topic.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:11, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Currently we have by method, by location and by occupation. There is no tree by cause, which is not surprising, that would be hard to define. It is surprising that there is not even a tree by nationality of the subject, instead there is a tree by location, which seems less relevant (in case someone commits suicide abroad).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
16:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
We have at least one cause. As I wrote in an earlier CfD:
Do we really want to categorize the reason for suicide? After all, a few categories like
Category:LGBT-related suicides will likely be fairly prevalent, but depression-related is inexplicably missing?
Moreover, why do we categorize suicides by Continent, and Country, and City?
We also categorize Death by Continent, and Country, and City. But the "suicide by" trees aren't merged with the "death by" trees.
A simpler approach might be limited to "yyyy death" or "yyyy murder" or "yyyy suicide",
Category:Deaths by cause with "Suicides by method" and "Murders by method" merged in the same tree there, and "death by location" limited to city. The city can be under country, and the country under continent. Kill all the other intersection trees. This is navigation, not intersection statistical tables.
With all due respect, you are too much in a hurry.
Category:Nazis who committed suicide by method should initially be merged to
Category:Nazis who committed suicide since that parent category still exists. Moreover this merge does not solve the existance of the by-method subcategories of Nazi suicides. Finally there should be a manual check that every article in every of its subcats is in a yyyy suicide category. Similar comments will apply to every of these nominations. This requires a very careful approach in order to avoid a
WP:TRAINWRECK.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
14:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Done tagging. Excellent thoughts! Agree that this doesn't fix Nazi sub-sub-categories; those will need to be unravelled later. Agree about ensuring every article should already be in
Category:Suicide by year. That should be true in any case, and can be done now! Do we have an available bot? William Allen Simpson (
talk)
15:08, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Another example why this is not easy:
Category:Suicides by firearm and parent
Category:Deaths by firearm are both subcatted by country. This implies you have to nominate all country subcategories. Don't fix this right now though! The point is that it is far better to start with separate nominations each dealing with one cause, and to think each nomination thoroughly through. Moreover you'd better start with the easiest causes (easy in terms of category tree complexity).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
15:38, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Yes, I understood that we had also agreed to eliminate "by country" (above). But that should be a separate nomination. I'd thought this was easiest (only 16), as we've already had agreement and it would nicely group the by country for later nominations. William Allen Simpson (
talk)
15:42, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
I dont think this scheme really works. Deaths by hanging on a gallows are much more defining than the DIY sort, and self-immolation is very different from other deaths in fires. I think I prefer a geographical/nationality based breakdown. But
Category:Suicide bombers should be kept, because that really is defining. Very few of the others are notable because of their suicide.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
It's all been prepared for choosing those individual methods.
So you want to keep Suicides by self-immolation and delete Deaths from fire?
And keep Suicide bombers subsubcategory, but delete parents Suicides by explosive device and Deaths by explosive device?
Also delete Suicides by hanging instead of merging?
Oppose some suicides are notable for their method; some aren't. I also dislike the upmerge proposal above, why do individual biographies of Nazis belong in
Category:Nazis by cause of death? And I think a meaningful difference can be drawn between those who die by various causes and those who suicide by those causes; particularly as we tend to categorize by cause of death as that which ends a life not as that by which someone chooses to end one's life. For some categories it's clear (not sure suicide by cancer is possible), but with the various deaths that are "accidental" (see
Category:Accidental deaths tree) we'll end up separating these out as suicides (like executions and murders) are not accidental.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Which means if you are killed in some other way, you only go in one category for dying in that year. But if you kill yourself we put you in two categories for dying in that year. Does this even make sense? We used to have an assasinations by year category, but we deleted that.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose - the above proposal would make many categories relating to how people died large and difficult to navigate. Talking about specific problematic categories should take place on individual nominations if appropriate.
Inter&anthro (
talk)
23:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films about nuclear accidents and incidents
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Nominator's rationale: Category appears to be intended for fictional nuclear incidents. I note that it has
Category:Nuclear accidents in fiction as a parent category, so either this category's name should be clarified or the tree needs to be restructured a bit. Alternately, the latter category could be created (and most entries moved to it), as a subcategory of the former.
DonIago (
talk)
17:26, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Oppose, two articles and the subcategory are about a real accident instead of a fictional accident. Besides the category is too small for further subcatting. Rather expand the scope to also allow non-fiction.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
05:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Would you support removing "Nuclear accidents in fiction" as a parent category then? I'm amenable to that option, just forgot to bring it up in my OP.
DonIago (
talk)
15:55, 19 December 2020 (UTC)reply
In light of the above, I'll give it a couple more days in case other options present themselves. Otherwise I'll plan to withdraw this CfD and remove the fictional parent category. Thanks!
DonIago (
talk)
18:32, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Delete another "about" category with the usual problems: objectively defining how much about the subject must the film be and what reliable sources tell us it's at least that much?
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Italian painters by city
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Nominator's rationale: "Fooish" categories are generally reserved for national categories. People from Foo is generally used for anything below that level, and is used in all the other subcategories of
Category:Italian people by occupation and city. No obvious reason why Italian painters should be treated differently. The various categories contain comments along the lines of "This list encompasses Italian painters of the School of Brescia who during 1400-1900, demonstrate influences from both Venice and Milan." and "This category encompasses painters active in the Northern Italian city of Cremona". This is a bit confusing. If it's sensible to subcategorize by schools of painting then I think the categories should make that clearer. Perhaps they could be called "Painters of the Brescian School", along the lines of
Category:Schools of Japanese art? And at present
Category:Painters from Milan redirects to
Category:Milanese painters, so its not clear what we are supposed to do with those who were not "active in Milan between 1400-1800". NB I know nothing about Italian painting so would be grateful for guidance from those that do.
Rathfelder (
talk)
15:34, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Happy to Support as long as redirects are left from the existing names, which are what one might have thought of as the graceful and obvious labels, as opposed to the systematic but sadly lowest-common-denominator style names that are proposed.
Chiswick Chap (
talk)
16:06, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered Milanese mobsters
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Category:Sports events held in a bubble due to the COVID-19 pandemic
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Comment "bio-secure bubble" seems to be a term specific to India or the Commonwealth realm, although I don't oppose the renaming since the term is less ambiguous.
Hariboneagle927 (
talk)
16:07, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Lutheran congregations
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Category:1623 establishments in Europe — we categorize the starting year of "establishment", whatever that means. This is the only article in that category. Yes, Königsberg is in Europe. And probably in some part of Germany in that year?
Support in general -- We had a similar discussion about congregations in a part of England recently, where I supported a similar merger. On second thoughts I had a slight qualm about it. A congregation might be established at a different date from a church, where a church was rebuilt, particularly if on a new site. The consensus seems to be that articles are usually largely about church buildings and they should be categorised. The present St Paul's Cathedral in London was built after in the late 17th century after the Great Fire, but replaced a medieval church on the same site, itself probably a rebuild of a Saxon one. Thus it might be legitimate to categorise it as founded in 8th century.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
18:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)reply
Mild support. This is an improvement as congregations are not notable per se, but churches is more ambiguous than e.g. church buildings as it also refers to the larger church bodies. We therefore face the risk of seeing Lutheran church bodies added to these categories, as has been seen before. I also believe that categories for local churches/church buildings should be removed from "religious organizations" categories.
Place Clichy (
talk)
09:22, 24 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Mayors of places in Japan
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Category:Illegitimate children of Roman monarchs
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Merge Besides the Roman Emperors, the only other Roman monarchs were the semi-legendary Roman kings. And we do not have articles on their illegitimate children.
Dimadick (
talk)
18:24, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Illegitimate children of Ottoman sultans
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Comment -- I am not sure that "illegitimate" is quite the right term for the one individual, who was conceived to a concubine in the harem, but married to a bey before his birth. I would also comment that the lack of a (legitimate) sons category may be because sultans were at one period in the habit or killing all (half)-siblings on ascending the throne.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Children of sultans
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Category:Deniers of Serbian genocide in Croatia
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Nominator's rationale: This was misnamed in the recent renaming. Croatia and the Independent State of Croatia are two separate things. The latter was far larger than Croatia and included all of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina and parts of modern-day Serbia.
Peacemaker67 (
click to talk to me)
06:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:Carroll College (Montana)
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Rename Parent Cat/Keep Alumni Subcat Anyone who graduated from the Wisconsin school prior to 2008 will have reliable sources saying they graduated from "Carroll College" so I see this as highly ambiguous and renaming would lead to miscategorization. 12 years of renaming is probably plenty of time for other articles though.
RevelationDirect (
talk)
00:50, 20 November 2020 (UTC)reply
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Category:NZIA Gold Medal-winning buildings
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