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Binghamton Crickets
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This grows out of a discussion at
WP:RDE; see "19th-century minor league baseball" in
the revision current as of nomination. In short, the 1870s team wore uniforms saying "Cricket" but were commonly known as "Crickets", so it should be at "Binghamton Crickets" as well, and thus we need to disambiguate. Neither team has an article. Also, please note that the discussion demonstrates that these two are indeed treated as separate teams; we shouldn't just merge them into a single category. I've proposed a naming format similar to
Category:Washington Senators (1901–60) players and
Category:Washington Senators (1891–99) players, although as the years these teams played may be a bit uncertain, I thought it would be wiser to use just the decades of their main activity, rather than a range of years.
Nyttend (
talk)
23:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Bugs was a participant in the WP:RDE discussion, and some of my nomination statement depends on what he found in some paywalled sources.
Nyttend (
talk)
23:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm not 100% certain they are separate, but I do think that combining them would need more evidence of linkage than I have seen. Support proposal as written. --
Khajidha (
talk)
00:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Also, they are currently covered in two categories and would continue to be covered in two categories, so I can't understand what "split" you are talking about. --
Khajidha (
talk)
00:07, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Also also,
Peterkingiron, they appear not to have changed their name. You can propose merging the existing categories if you want (before the WP:RDE discussion, I was planning to propose that), but unless someone proposes it, we'll definitely be retaining the current separate categories under some name-combination or another.
Nyttend (
talk)
02:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sinéad O'Connor
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Keep - we have had thousands of musician cfds like this one which have been 'keep' with 3 subcats, delete with 1 and various with 2. 'Works' has so far been reserved for more substantial efforts than popular music. Pick some particular branch of a non-musician tree and prune it in a systematic fashion rather than bringing random odds and ends to cfd.
Oculi (
talk)
18:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per precedent. "Works by" categories should be used for those who cross platforms with their creativity (authors, filmmakers, musicians, video game designers, visual artists). StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:44, 16 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support, there is no objective reason to restrict the Works tree to cross platform applications; cross category should be sufficient.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:54, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:5th-century French people
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge/rename as nominated, any further changes should be proposed in new nominations.
MER-C09:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:merge/rename, French people did not exist yet in the 5th century, the best contemporary descriptor is Gallo-Roman. Disclosure: I created the target recently. I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose Some of the people in this category are
Celtic Britons which colonized
Brittany.: "Toward the end of the 4th century, the
Britons of what is now Wales and the
South-Western peninsula of Great Britain began to emigrate to
Armorica. The history behind such an establishment is unclear, but medieval Breton, Angevin and Welsh sources connect it to a figure known as
Conan Meriadoc. Welsh literary sources assert that Conan came to Armorica on the orders of the Roman usurper
Magnus Maximus,... expelled from Lower Brittany by Conan on Magnus's orders. Regardless of the truth of this story, Brythonic (British Celtic) settlement probably increased during the
Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries. Scholars such as
Léon Fleuriot have suggested a two-wave model of migration from Britain which saw the emergence of an independent Breton people and established the dominance of the
BrythonicBreton language in Armorica. Their
petty kingdoms are now known by the names of the French counties that succeeded them—
Domnonée (
Devon),
Cornouaille (
Cornwall),
Léon (
Caerleon); but these names in Breton and
Latin are in most cases identical to their British homelands. (In Breton and French, however,
Gwened or
Vannetais continued the name of the indigenous
Veneti.) Although the details remain confused, these colonies consisted of related and intermarried dynasties which repeatedly unified (as by the 7th-century
Saint Judicaël) before splintering again according to Celtic inheritance practices. The area was finally consolidated in the 840s under
Nominoe in resistance to
Frankish control. Among the immigrant Britons, there were some clergymen who helped the
evangelisation of the region, which was still pagan, particularly in rural areas."
Dimadick (
talk)
06:29, 13 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment "I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target)" We already had a category about 6th century Gallo-Romans, and I created one for 7th-century Gallo-Romans, though by that time their culture was in decline. As noted in the main article
Gallo-Roman culture:
"Into the seventh century, Gallo-Roman culture would persist particularly in the areas of
Gallia Narbonensis that developed into
Occitania,
Cisalpine Gaul,
Orléanais, and to a lesser degree,
Gallia Aquitania. The formerly Romanized north of Gaul, once it had been occupied by the
Franks, would develop into
Merovingian culture instead.... Gallo-Roman language persisted in the northeast into the
Silva Carbonaria that formed an effective cultural barrier with the Franks to the north and east, and in the northwest to the lower valley of the
Loire, where Gallo-Roman culture interfaced with Frankish culture in a city like
Tours and in the person of that Gallo-Roman bishop confronted with Merovingian royals,
Gregory of Tours."
Support -- Initially the Franks were an elite who invaded and imposed themselves. I am sure I have heard of Gallo-Romans who found themselves with Franks who had moved into part of their mansion (villa?).
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:21, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Disciples of Apocalypse
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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@
Fylindfotberserk: Since when are categories based on how long a stable has been together? Number of articles is a key factor in whether or not there should be a category. I think you are confusing
WP:N for articles with categories. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk15:27, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Galatz: Actually I was asking you to point me to a consensus or policy which "explicitly" mentions that any cat with less than "5 entries" should not be created.
Now,
WP:SMALLCAT writes, Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme,.... Point is -
How much is "few members"? A rather vague statement. I can very well consider 6 entries in
The Blue World Order members (only 2 more than DoA) to be "few members" and tag it for deletion. And
Category:The Road Warriors members also has only 9 entries.
Delete per
WP:SMALLCAT, although the guideline is imprecise a minimum of 5 is used in practice a lot. A cut-off like 5 makes perfect sense to the extent that an article will mention ~4 members in one the opening sentences of the article, while ~10 members would be too many to mention in a opening sentence. In addition, the SMALLCAT exception does not apply, per Galatz.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Office (UK TV series) episodes
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: This category only contains two articles: the main episode list and an article about the Christmas specials. No other episodes have articles. It could very easily be restored if more episode-articles are ever created.
Grapesoda22 (
✉)
02:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. If there weren't a list article, I would say listify, as a list article would be better for listing episodes, due to there not being any articles on the individual episodes. Individual episodes are usually not notable enough for articles, unless they receive significant attention, such as
Dennō Senshi Porygon. Since there are no episodes of this show that are notable enough, I'd say this category should be deleted. InvalidOS (
talk)11:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)reply
@
InvalidOS: presumably your delete is meant as merge to
Category:The Office, is that right? There is no reason to withdraw the articles from the tree of
Category:The Office. 05:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
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Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Keep - a quick Google Books search find plenty of people for whom this is listed in a short biography, suggesting that it is defining for them. Also turns up repeatedly in Who's Who/Who Was Who entries, which are generally brief and include little more than defining characteristics.
Warofdreamstalk16:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think inclusion in a short biography demonstrates that something meets
WP:CATDEF. A defining characteristic, the text at CATDEF implies, is something in the first sentence or two of a short biography. I looked at a quasi-random sampling of people in this category:
Mentioned the Fabians, but not exec cttee membership:
Hubert Bland (opening sentence of lede notes he was one of the founders of the Fabians),
Barbara Drake (describes her as a Fabian, but the article text never mentions the exec cttee)
Keep The fact that Fabians are not mentioned in the ledes is not terribly significant. Membership of the Executive Committee was more important for some of these people than others, and its defining importance in the early lives of some was eclipsed by later achievements.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
(ec) @
Rathfelder, that is a broader problem with
WP:DEFINING. Attribute X may represent the pinnacle of the career of person A, but they may have served alongside Person B who did so much else at a higher level that X is a mere footnote in their life. In such cases we have to make a judgement on X's definingness across the set as a whole. In this case I agree that being on the Fabian Exec was defining for most, even for Denis Healey. But other cases are much less clearcut, and the philosophical problem is irresoluble within our current framework. In an ideal world, we might able to rank the categories applied to each article, so that readers could choose to view only the most defining, but the software doesn't allow it and we haven't enough editors to do it.--
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I concur with
BrownHairedGirl's description of the fundamental philosophical problem that a category may be defining for some people, but not others. I think the approach one has to take is on an article by article basis. For this person, a particular category is not defining and should not be added. For that person, it is and it should be.
This leaves us with some categories that might apply to a lot of people, but which are actually defining for only a few articles. I see a lot of school alumni categories that rarely seem defining, so I chop them from articles, but I can see they might be in certain situations.
In this particular case, however, while I can see that being a Fabian may meet DEFCAT, and we have a category for that, I struggle to see that this category, "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee", or indeed a related category, "Treasurers of the Fabian Society", are ever defining. The broader category of being a member of the Fabians seems sufficient. It's
WP:OC to split that into 5 sub-categories ("Chairs of...", "General Secretaries of...", "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee", "Presidents of..." and "Treasurers of...").
Bondegezou (
talk)
15:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - if Fabian Society Executive Committee is not mentioned in an article then the category should be removed. (Editors should not be 'chopping' school alumni categories from articles (assuming the school is mentioned and preferably sourced). I think (in practice) we categorize by defining characteristics and also a list of factoids - year of birth, death, place person is from, school, university + a few others.)
Oculi (
talk)
11:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep There are plenty of categories which are defining for some of the members, but not for others. Sometimes they reveal interesting connections which have not been generally noticed. I think we should keep them if they are significant for a reasonable number. I dont see much harm done if that means some people appear in categories which, as far as they are concerned, are not really defining.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The harm is that we would be acting against an editing guideline in
WP:NONDEF. Have a debate and change the guideline if you like, but I think it's unhelpful to try a backdoor subversion of an agreed guideline.
Bondegezou (
talk)
09:39, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Note that especially with biographies we should strictly keep to
WP:DEFINING since biography articles too often contain a huge list of categories already, so that nobody can see the wood for the trees, which just undermines the usefulness of the category system.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
22:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support in Principle/Upmerge to
Category:Members of the Fabian Society. While these people do seem definined by their socialism and that is often intertwined with their Fabian Society activities, the couple hundred people in this category (of which I clicked on like 20) don't seem defined by what appears to be a volunteer stint in this executive role. (We have a parent category for any member though which is not nominated so I don't favor a straight deletion.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
02:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The real issue here is whether membership of the executive was, for a reasonable proportion of these people, more defining than just being a member of the society. I'd be surprised if that were true.
Rathfelder (
talk)
07:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Venezuela solidarity activists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Keep - This term has been around since the Hugo Chavez era and its meaning has remained fundamentally the same: solidarity with the duly-elected (i.e. legitimate) government of Venezuela AND opposition to US intervention. It's certainly NOT an issue of "original research" - that is a totally ludicrous assertion. I just checked all 5 of the US articles you listed, and every single one of them has clear, well-sourced content, usually under a section heading.
The reason most of the articles currently listed are British politicians is undoubtedly because the category was created by a British editor, presumably more familiar with the scene in the UK. But there are plenty of Venezuela solidarity activists here in the US (in the news recently as "Embassy Protectors"), and it seems there are also a goodly number in Australia.
As for any articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content, the standard/basic rules apply: ideally, the editor/s who added the category to those articles (or anyone else who cares to) should also see to it that sourced info is added in order to support inclusion; if that doesn't happen, those articles can be removed from the category. PS - I will try to find time to add some of the other US people some time later today.
Anomalous+0 (
talk)
20:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have taken the liberty to remove the articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content. I have failed to find use of the term besides in the context of the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign, both in and outside Wikipedia. The issue with the original research is the term and the categorization, not the content of the articles per se. In any case, this definition seems to fit either with support of the Bolivarian Revolution or the ruling party, and the . This is one of the reasons why the term "Venezuela solidarity" is problematic and lacks neutrality. For instance, which would be the differences with the category
Venezuelan democracy activists? Opposition to the economic crisis or human rights violations? The category is both ambiguous and broad, and a name such as "Bolivarian Revolution supporters" would be more suitable. --
Jamez42 (
talk)
20:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Remove it would have to be linked to
Venezuela Solidarity Campaign (or other groups) to be easily defined as a category, with the ambiguity of solidarity in individuals' statements/actions/beliefs compared to the stated manifestos of groups — and at that point, it makes more sense to just have a "Venezuela Solidarity Campaign members" category, especially for readers who are unaware of the implications of the term and may confuse a simple assertion of "solidarity" as being supportive of the opposition, government, peace, or something else.
Kingsif (
talk)
22:46, 23 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Binghamton Crickets
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: This grows out of a discussion at
WP:RDE; see "19th-century minor league baseball" in
the revision current as of nomination. In short, the 1870s team wore uniforms saying "Cricket" but were commonly known as "Crickets", so it should be at "Binghamton Crickets" as well, and thus we need to disambiguate. Neither team has an article. Also, please note that the discussion demonstrates that these two are indeed treated as separate teams; we shouldn't just merge them into a single category. I've proposed a naming format similar to
Category:Washington Senators (1901–60) players and
Category:Washington Senators (1891–99) players, although as the years these teams played may be a bit uncertain, I thought it would be wiser to use just the decades of their main activity, rather than a range of years.
Nyttend (
talk)
23:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Bugs was a participant in the WP:RDE discussion, and some of my nomination statement depends on what he found in some paywalled sources.
Nyttend (
talk)
23:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I'm not 100% certain they are separate, but I do think that combining them would need more evidence of linkage than I have seen. Support proposal as written. --
Khajidha (
talk)
00:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Also, they are currently covered in two categories and would continue to be covered in two categories, so I can't understand what "split" you are talking about. --
Khajidha (
talk)
00:07, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Also also,
Peterkingiron, they appear not to have changed their name. You can propose merging the existing categories if you want (before the WP:RDE discussion, I was planning to propose that), but unless someone proposes it, we'll definitely be retaining the current separate categories under some name-combination or another.
Nyttend (
talk)
02:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sinéad O'Connor
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Keep - we have had thousands of musician cfds like this one which have been 'keep' with 3 subcats, delete with 1 and various with 2. 'Works' has so far been reserved for more substantial efforts than popular music. Pick some particular branch of a non-musician tree and prune it in a systematic fashion rather than bringing random odds and ends to cfd.
Oculi (
talk)
18:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep per precedent. "Works by" categories should be used for those who cross platforms with their creativity (authors, filmmakers, musicians, video game designers, visual artists). StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:44, 16 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Support, there is no objective reason to restrict the Works tree to cross platform applications; cross category should be sufficient.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:54, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:5th-century French people
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:merge/rename as nominated, any further changes should be proposed in new nominations.
MER-C09:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:merge/rename, French people did not exist yet in the 5th century, the best contemporary descriptor is Gallo-Roman. Disclosure: I created the target recently. I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
06:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Oppose Some of the people in this category are
Celtic Britons which colonized
Brittany.: "Toward the end of the 4th century, the
Britons of what is now Wales and the
South-Western peninsula of Great Britain began to emigrate to
Armorica. The history behind such an establishment is unclear, but medieval Breton, Angevin and Welsh sources connect it to a figure known as
Conan Meriadoc. Welsh literary sources assert that Conan came to Armorica on the orders of the Roman usurper
Magnus Maximus,... expelled from Lower Brittany by Conan on Magnus's orders. Regardless of the truth of this story, Brythonic (British Celtic) settlement probably increased during the
Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries. Scholars such as
Léon Fleuriot have suggested a two-wave model of migration from Britain which saw the emergence of an independent Breton people and established the dominance of the
BrythonicBreton language in Armorica. Their
petty kingdoms are now known by the names of the French counties that succeeded them—
Domnonée (
Devon),
Cornouaille (
Cornwall),
Léon (
Caerleon); but these names in Breton and
Latin are in most cases identical to their British homelands. (In Breton and French, however,
Gwened or
Vannetais continued the name of the indigenous
Veneti.) Although the details remain confused, these colonies consisted of related and intermarried dynasties which repeatedly unified (as by the 7th-century
Saint Judicaël) before splintering again according to Celtic inheritance practices. The area was finally consolidated in the 840s under
Nominoe in resistance to
Frankish control. Among the immigrant Britons, there were some clergymen who helped the
evangelisation of the region, which was still pagan, particularly in rural areas."
Dimadick (
talk)
06:29, 13 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment "I haven't included the 6th and the 7th century in this nomination because those are more complicated (they do not obviously have a Gallo-Roman target)" We already had a category about 6th century Gallo-Romans, and I created one for 7th-century Gallo-Romans, though by that time their culture was in decline. As noted in the main article
Gallo-Roman culture:
"Into the seventh century, Gallo-Roman culture would persist particularly in the areas of
Gallia Narbonensis that developed into
Occitania,
Cisalpine Gaul,
Orléanais, and to a lesser degree,
Gallia Aquitania. The formerly Romanized north of Gaul, once it had been occupied by the
Franks, would develop into
Merovingian culture instead.... Gallo-Roman language persisted in the northeast into the
Silva Carbonaria that formed an effective cultural barrier with the Franks to the north and east, and in the northwest to the lower valley of the
Loire, where Gallo-Roman culture interfaced with Frankish culture in a city like
Tours and in the person of that Gallo-Roman bishop confronted with Merovingian royals,
Gregory of Tours."
Support -- Initially the Franks were an elite who invaded and imposed themselves. I am sure I have heard of Gallo-Romans who found themselves with Franks who had moved into part of their mansion (villa?).
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:21, 18 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Disciples of Apocalypse
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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@
Fylindfotberserk: Since when are categories based on how long a stable has been together? Number of articles is a key factor in whether or not there should be a category. I think you are confusing
WP:N for articles with categories. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk15:27, 20 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
Galatz: Actually I was asking you to point me to a consensus or policy which "explicitly" mentions that any cat with less than "5 entries" should not be created.
Now,
WP:SMALLCAT writes, Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme,.... Point is -
How much is "few members"? A rather vague statement. I can very well consider 6 entries in
The Blue World Order members (only 2 more than DoA) to be "few members" and tag it for deletion. And
Category:The Road Warriors members also has only 9 entries.
Delete per
WP:SMALLCAT, although the guideline is imprecise a minimum of 5 is used in practice a lot. A cut-off like 5 makes perfect sense to the extent that an article will mention ~4 members in one the opening sentences of the article, while ~10 members would be too many to mention in a opening sentence. In addition, the SMALLCAT exception does not apply, per Galatz.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
10:18, 25 May 2019 (UTC)reply
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Category:The Office (UK TV series) episodes
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: This category only contains two articles: the main episode list and an article about the Christmas specials. No other episodes have articles. It could very easily be restored if more episode-articles are ever created.
Grapesoda22 (
✉)
02:16, 17 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete. If there weren't a list article, I would say listify, as a list article would be better for listing episodes, due to there not being any articles on the individual episodes. Individual episodes are usually not notable enough for articles, unless they receive significant attention, such as
Dennō Senshi Porygon. Since there are no episodes of this show that are notable enough, I'd say this category should be deleted. InvalidOS (
talk)11:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)reply
@
InvalidOS: presumably your delete is meant as merge to
Category:The Office, is that right? There is no reason to withdraw the articles from the tree of
Category:The Office. 05:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Keep - a quick Google Books search find plenty of people for whom this is listed in a short biography, suggesting that it is defining for them. Also turns up repeatedly in Who's Who/Who Was Who entries, which are generally brief and include little more than defining characteristics.
Warofdreamstalk16:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I don't think inclusion in a short biography demonstrates that something meets
WP:CATDEF. A defining characteristic, the text at CATDEF implies, is something in the first sentence or two of a short biography. I looked at a quasi-random sampling of people in this category:
Mentioned the Fabians, but not exec cttee membership:
Hubert Bland (opening sentence of lede notes he was one of the founders of the Fabians),
Barbara Drake (describes her as a Fabian, but the article text never mentions the exec cttee)
Keep The fact that Fabians are not mentioned in the ledes is not terribly significant. Membership of the Executive Committee was more important for some of these people than others, and its defining importance in the early lives of some was eclipsed by later achievements.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
(ec) @
Rathfelder, that is a broader problem with
WP:DEFINING. Attribute X may represent the pinnacle of the career of person A, but they may have served alongside Person B who did so much else at a higher level that X is a mere footnote in their life. In such cases we have to make a judgement on X's definingness across the set as a whole. In this case I agree that being on the Fabian Exec was defining for most, even for Denis Healey. But other cases are much less clearcut, and the philosophical problem is irresoluble within our current framework. In an ideal world, we might able to rank the categories applied to each article, so that readers could choose to view only the most defining, but the software doesn't allow it and we haven't enough editors to do it.--
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)reply
I concur with
BrownHairedGirl's description of the fundamental philosophical problem that a category may be defining for some people, but not others. I think the approach one has to take is on an article by article basis. For this person, a particular category is not defining and should not be added. For that person, it is and it should be.
This leaves us with some categories that might apply to a lot of people, but which are actually defining for only a few articles. I see a lot of school alumni categories that rarely seem defining, so I chop them from articles, but I can see they might be in certain situations.
In this particular case, however, while I can see that being a Fabian may meet DEFCAT, and we have a category for that, I struggle to see that this category, "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee", or indeed a related category, "Treasurers of the Fabian Society", are ever defining. The broader category of being a member of the Fabians seems sufficient. It's
WP:OC to split that into 5 sub-categories ("Chairs of...", "General Secretaries of...", "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee", "Presidents of..." and "Treasurers of...").
Bondegezou (
talk)
15:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep - if Fabian Society Executive Committee is not mentioned in an article then the category should be removed. (Editors should not be 'chopping' school alumni categories from articles (assuming the school is mentioned and preferably sourced). I think (in practice) we categorize by defining characteristics and also a list of factoids - year of birth, death, place person is from, school, university + a few others.)
Oculi (
talk)
11:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Keep There are plenty of categories which are defining for some of the members, but not for others. Sometimes they reveal interesting connections which have not been generally noticed. I think we should keep them if they are significant for a reasonable number. I dont see much harm done if that means some people appear in categories which, as far as they are concerned, are not really defining.
Rathfelder (
talk)
21:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The harm is that we would be acting against an editing guideline in
WP:NONDEF. Have a debate and change the guideline if you like, but I think it's unhelpful to try a backdoor subversion of an agreed guideline.
Bondegezou (
talk)
09:39, 18 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. Note that especially with biographies we should strictly keep to
WP:DEFINING since biography articles too often contain a huge list of categories already, so that nobody can see the wood for the trees, which just undermines the usefulness of the category system.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
22:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)reply
Support in Principle/Upmerge to
Category:Members of the Fabian Society. While these people do seem definined by their socialism and that is often intertwined with their Fabian Society activities, the couple hundred people in this category (of which I clicked on like 20) don't seem defined by what appears to be a volunteer stint in this executive role. (We have a parent category for any member though which is not nominated so I don't favor a straight deletion.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
02:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)reply
The real issue here is whether membership of the executive was, for a reasonable proportion of these people, more defining than just being a member of the society. I'd be surprised if that were true.
Rathfelder (
talk)
07:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Venezuela solidarity activists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Keep - This term has been around since the Hugo Chavez era and its meaning has remained fundamentally the same: solidarity with the duly-elected (i.e. legitimate) government of Venezuela AND opposition to US intervention. It's certainly NOT an issue of "original research" - that is a totally ludicrous assertion. I just checked all 5 of the US articles you listed, and every single one of them has clear, well-sourced content, usually under a section heading.
The reason most of the articles currently listed are British politicians is undoubtedly because the category was created by a British editor, presumably more familiar with the scene in the UK. But there are plenty of Venezuela solidarity activists here in the US (in the news recently as "Embassy Protectors"), and it seems there are also a goodly number in Australia.
As for any articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content, the standard/basic rules apply: ideally, the editor/s who added the category to those articles (or anyone else who cares to) should also see to it that sourced info is added in order to support inclusion; if that doesn't happen, those articles can be removed from the category. PS - I will try to find time to add some of the other US people some time later today.
Anomalous+0 (
talk)
20:43, 22 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have taken the liberty to remove the articles that don't mention Venezuela in their content. I have failed to find use of the term besides in the context of the Venezuela Solidarity Campaign, both in and outside Wikipedia. The issue with the original research is the term and the categorization, not the content of the articles per se. In any case, this definition seems to fit either with support of the Bolivarian Revolution or the ruling party, and the . This is one of the reasons why the term "Venezuela solidarity" is problematic and lacks neutrality. For instance, which would be the differences with the category
Venezuelan democracy activists? Opposition to the economic crisis or human rights violations? The category is both ambiguous and broad, and a name such as "Bolivarian Revolution supporters" would be more suitable. --
Jamez42 (
talk)
20:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Remove it would have to be linked to
Venezuela Solidarity Campaign (or other groups) to be easily defined as a category, with the ambiguity of solidarity in individuals' statements/actions/beliefs compared to the stated manifestos of groups — and at that point, it makes more sense to just have a "Venezuela Solidarity Campaign members" category, especially for readers who are unaware of the implications of the term and may confuse a simple assertion of "solidarity" as being supportive of the opposition, government, peace, or something else.
Kingsif (
talk)
22:46, 23 June 2019 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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