The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale. Remove the superfluous word "events" or the phrase "events in" from these categories. The parent categories of events-by-sport are all just called "<sportname> at the YYYY Winter Olympics" (e.g.
Category:Alpine skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics), and there is no need to add the word "events" when subcategorising by sex — it conveys no extra information and resolves no ambiguity.
For anyone wondering about the absence of Summer Olympics categories from this proposal: none of the by-sport subcats of
Category:Women's events at the Summer Olympics uses the word "events".
Note that the status quo would not be a god option. The list above includes two different formats: "<sex><sportname> events at the YYYY" and "<sex> events in <sportname> at the YYYY". Some cats are already named "<sex><sportname> at the YYYY", so we currently have three different formats.
(Aside to anyone questioning the utility of these categories: these subcats by sex capture a
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the events. Where men and women complete separately, categorisation on that basis is explicitly permitted by
WP:Cat gender.) --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support per nom - makes sense and brings the Winter categories in line with the Summer ones. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 08:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support - makes sense.
Nimrodbr (
talk) 09:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hanson (band) members
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Nominator's rationale: Per consensus/convention that "categories should not be created when only one [band] member has an article." StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 19:47, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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Television templates by genre
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The result of the discussion was:Merge.
Timrollpickering 16:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Genre is certainly a relevant categorization for television program articles. However, categorizing their templates by genre is of doubtful utility, in the same way that categorizing these templates by any of the other bases for categorizing their articles (e.g., by year or country of origin) would be. But, lacking is a parent category for television program templates, and this proposes to create one by merging these several genre categories. --
Bsherr (
talk) 15:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Convicted book-thieves
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The result of the discussion was:Rename.
Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support for consistency --
Lenticel(
talk) 00:52, 6 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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TV episodes by country and series
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The result of the discussion was:Delete.
Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:rename, apart from the eponymous article the category has a much broader content than just Holy orders. Clerical state would be a better term, per e.g.
this source.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The alternative does not resolve the problem mentioned in the rationale.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I still prefer my alternative. While it does not resolve the "problem" mentioned in the rationale, that can be solved by manually moving those things that are not Holy Orders.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 10:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose "Clerical state" is highly ambiguous, and not a common term, surely?
Johnbod (
talk) 14:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Johnbod: The term is mostly used as part of the phrase "loss of clerical state" (
e.g.). Please clarify why it is ambiguous or not common. Do you have a better suggestion for the category (given the fact that the current category content is broader than just about Holy orders)?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Well, exactly - you've answered the "not common" part yourself! "Clerical state" may be the correct technical term, but will suggest Vatican City, Mt Athos, or pre-invasion Tibet to many. A better name is needed.
Johnbod (
talk) 00:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)reply
An alternative might be to merge to
Category:Catholic clergy. But that category is (until now) a set category, while here we have topic articles.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This is part of the structure of
Category:Sacraments of the Catholic Church. And has a related article by that name, not to mention that that is the explicit name of the sacrament in question. I could support a Rename to
Category:Holy orders (Catholic Church), to match other category members, if wanted, I suppose, though all of those could be renamed to "X in the Catholic Church", so I'm not really advocating a rename, so much as I'm strongly opposing the merge and the above suggested renames. - jc37 02:20, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep. This category makes sense as a stand-alone category. However it may be better organised in conjunction with parent
Category:Chrisitan ordination (which I added) as child
Category:Major orders, which is highly redundant. It does not bother me that content not only covers the (holy) orders themselves, but also topics common to all orders in relation to other topics (women, homosexuality, celibacy, religious orders, vocations etc.). In this respect, a title with orders seems more appropriate than (clerical) state. I am however open to alternative renamings such as
Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church (no capital O),
Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church (merged with
Category:Major orders) or
Category:Ordination in the Catholic Church. This category should remain distinct from individual clergy categories.
Place Clichy (
talk) 12:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I would not oppose the creation of a parent category like
Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church which would be a parent of the current nominated category. I would oppose a straight re-name though as Holy Orders is sufficiently defining to merit its own category.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Category:Catholic Church offices
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:Rename to
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles without prejudice to a broader nomination of the tree. After long debate this has the most local consensus.
Timrollpickering 21:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Pretty much identical scope? For any entry that cannot be dealt with as inside an identical scope should probably rather be subcategorised somewhere else?
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 07:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep [see below] - the scope is by no means identical. The purpose of
Category:Catholic Church offices is to subcategorise articles relating to positions in the Church such as bishop, pope, abbot etc.
Oculi (
talk) 21:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The category should mainly consist of articles, most of the subcategories are not about a particular office (as a topic) so they may be moved to
Category:Catholic Church organisation or to somewhere else in the tree of
Category:Catholic Church. But that is a matter of reorganizing the content, not of reorganizing the categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:25, 9 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Not sure either. It is rather unclear. That's why I think this category merits some reconsidering.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 13:30, 13 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 03:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment Please take care when choosing a category name to use words that are unambiguous to the lay reader. Be aware that certain terms which tend to mean one thing in modern, colloquial English may have a specialized meaning in the context of Catholic doctrine or administration. Some of these are known well enough outside Catholic circles, others less so. Bishop, priest, or deacon might be a position or an office to you and me, but they are
(holy) orders in this context. Conversely, office can be something else. Other seemingly unambiguous terms like congregation, ordinary, or religious can have specialized meanings in a Catholic context which differ sufficiently from the more generalized sense as to permit confusion. So when choosing a name for a category, as far as possible terms should be chosen which will not confuse the general reader.
Mathglot (
talk) 21:11, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Mathglot: thank you for your advice. Which name would you recommend in this particular case?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep (perhaps renamed) So not merge. The category deals with job titles in the church. I would go with Occuli's suggestion, unless someone comes up with a better target.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Catholic Church titles of office. - From what I am reading, "office" is the right term, per various references. I think, as one person noted above, there is a misunderstanding in this discussion that the word office=title. It doesn't. And use of "ecclesiastical" is redundant, since we're already saying "Catholic Church". And so, by extension, I'd suggest that the parent category be renamed to
Category:Ecclesiastical titles of office. I see that the
related article has been recently
Boldly moved, I might suggest it be moved to
Ecclesiastical titles of office, for clarity, as well. - jc37 01:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I've been debating how to close this, and it's down to
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles or
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical offices. The discussion above suggests "titles", but my instincts lean toward "offices" per the convention for the category tree (e.g.
Category:Anglican ecclesiastical offices). Foo titles of office (suggested by jc37) may be appropriate but would involve a wider nomination that includes the parent
Category:Ecclesiastical titles. So, I'm not quite sure what to do... I think your comment contains relevant information that may have been overlooked before, but I'd prefer not to relist a third time. I think I'll come back with fresh eyes in the morning, though I'd be happy for someone else to close the discussion if they can see a clear consensus more readily than I can. --
Black Falcon(
talk) 06:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Black Falcon: Good luck with closing this discussion. - just a friendly reminder :-)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale. Remove the superfluous word "events" or the phrase "events in" from these categories. The parent categories of events-by-sport are all just called "<sportname> at the YYYY Winter Olympics" (e.g.
Category:Alpine skiing at the 2002 Winter Olympics), and there is no need to add the word "events" when subcategorising by sex — it conveys no extra information and resolves no ambiguity.
For anyone wondering about the absence of Summer Olympics categories from this proposal: none of the by-sport subcats of
Category:Women's events at the Summer Olympics uses the word "events".
Note that the status quo would not be a god option. The list above includes two different formats: "<sex><sportname> events at the YYYY" and "<sex> events in <sportname> at the YYYY". Some cats are already named "<sex><sportname> at the YYYY", so we currently have three different formats.
(Aside to anyone questioning the utility of these categories: these subcats by sex capture a
WP:DEFINING characteristic of the events. Where men and women complete separately, categorisation on that basis is explicitly permitted by
WP:Cat gender.) --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support per nom - makes sense and brings the Winter categories in line with the Summer ones. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 08:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support - makes sense.
Nimrodbr (
talk) 09:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Hanson (band) members
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Per consensus/convention that "categories should not be created when only one [band] member has an article." StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 19:47, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Television templates by genre
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Merge.
Timrollpickering 16:50, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Genre is certainly a relevant categorization for television program articles. However, categorizing their templates by genre is of doubtful utility, in the same way that categorizing these templates by any of the other bases for categorizing their articles (e.g., by year or country of origin) would be. But, lacking is a parent category for television program templates, and this proposes to create one by merging these several genre categories. --
Bsherr (
talk) 15:26, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Convicted book-thieves
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:Rename.
Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Support for consistency --
Lenticel(
talk) 00:52, 6 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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TV episodes by country and series
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:Delete.
Timrollpickering 16:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale:rename, apart from the eponymous article the category has a much broader content than just Holy orders. Clerical state would be a better term, per e.g.
this source.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 19:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The alternative does not resolve the problem mentioned in the rationale.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I still prefer my alternative. While it does not resolve the "problem" mentioned in the rationale, that can be solved by manually moving those things that are not Holy Orders.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 10:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose "Clerical state" is highly ambiguous, and not a common term, surely?
Johnbod (
talk) 14:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Johnbod: The term is mostly used as part of the phrase "loss of clerical state" (
e.g.). Please clarify why it is ambiguous or not common. Do you have a better suggestion for the category (given the fact that the current category content is broader than just about Holy orders)?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 21:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Well, exactly - you've answered the "not common" part yourself! "Clerical state" may be the correct technical term, but will suggest Vatican City, Mt Athos, or pre-invasion Tibet to many. A better name is needed.
Johnbod (
talk) 00:39, 5 November 2018 (UTC)reply
An alternative might be to merge to
Category:Catholic clergy. But that category is (until now) a set category, while here we have topic articles.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:33, 5 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Oppose - This is part of the structure of
Category:Sacraments of the Catholic Church. And has a related article by that name, not to mention that that is the explicit name of the sacrament in question. I could support a Rename to
Category:Holy orders (Catholic Church), to match other category members, if wanted, I suppose, though all of those could be renamed to "X in the Catholic Church", so I'm not really advocating a rename, so much as I'm strongly opposing the merge and the above suggested renames. - jc37 02:20, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep. This category makes sense as a stand-alone category. However it may be better organised in conjunction with parent
Category:Chrisitan ordination (which I added) as child
Category:Major orders, which is highly redundant. It does not bother me that content not only covers the (holy) orders themselves, but also topics common to all orders in relation to other topics (women, homosexuality, celibacy, religious orders, vocations etc.). In this respect, a title with orders seems more appropriate than (clerical) state. I am however open to alternative renamings such as
Category:Holy orders in the Catholic Church (no capital O),
Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church (merged with
Category:Major orders) or
Category:Ordination in the Catholic Church. This category should remain distinct from individual clergy categories.
Place Clichy (
talk) 12:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I would not oppose the creation of a parent category like
Category:Major orders in the Catholic Church which would be a parent of the current nominated category. I would oppose a straight re-name though as Holy Orders is sufficiently defining to merit its own category.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Catholic Church offices
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename to
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles without prejudice to a broader nomination of the tree. After long debate this has the most local consensus.
Timrollpickering 21:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Pretty much identical scope? For any entry that cannot be dealt with as inside an identical scope should probably rather be subcategorised somewhere else?
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 07:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep [see below] - the scope is by no means identical. The purpose of
Category:Catholic Church offices is to subcategorise articles relating to positions in the Church such as bishop, pope, abbot etc.
Oculi (
talk) 21:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The category should mainly consist of articles, most of the subcategories are not about a particular office (as a topic) so they may be moved to
Category:Catholic Church organisation or to somewhere else in the tree of
Category:Catholic Church. But that is a matter of reorganizing the content, not of reorganizing the categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 05:25, 9 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Not sure either. It is rather unclear. That's why I think this category merits some reconsidering.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 13:30, 13 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 03:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment Please take care when choosing a category name to use words that are unambiguous to the lay reader. Be aware that certain terms which tend to mean one thing in modern, colloquial English may have a specialized meaning in the context of Catholic doctrine or administration. Some of these are known well enough outside Catholic circles, others less so. Bishop, priest, or deacon might be a position or an office to you and me, but they are
(holy) orders in this context. Conversely, office can be something else. Other seemingly unambiguous terms like congregation, ordinary, or religious can have specialized meanings in a Catholic context which differ sufficiently from the more generalized sense as to permit confusion. So when choosing a name for a category, as far as possible terms should be chosen which will not confuse the general reader.
Mathglot (
talk) 21:11, 17 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Mathglot: thank you for your advice. Which name would you recommend in this particular case?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep (perhaps renamed) So not merge. The category deals with job titles in the church. I would go with Occuli's suggestion, unless someone comes up with a better target.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 18:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
ℯxplicit 07:12, 1 November 2018 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Catholic Church titles of office. - From what I am reading, "office" is the right term, per various references. I think, as one person noted above, there is a misunderstanding in this discussion that the word office=title. It doesn't. And use of "ecclesiastical" is redundant, since we're already saying "Catholic Church". And so, by extension, I'd suggest that the parent category be renamed to
Category:Ecclesiastical titles of office. I see that the
related article has been recently
Boldly moved, I might suggest it be moved to
Ecclesiastical titles of office, for clarity, as well. - jc37 01:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)reply
I've been debating how to close this, and it's down to
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical titles or
Category:Catholic ecclesiastical offices. The discussion above suggests "titles", but my instincts lean toward "offices" per the convention for the category tree (e.g.
Category:Anglican ecclesiastical offices). Foo titles of office (suggested by jc37) may be appropriate but would involve a wider nomination that includes the parent
Category:Ecclesiastical titles. So, I'm not quite sure what to do... I think your comment contains relevant information that may have been overlooked before, but I'd prefer not to relist a third time. I think I'll come back with fresh eyes in the morning, though I'd be happy for someone else to close the discussion if they can see a clear consensus more readily than I can. --
Black Falcon(
talk) 06:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Black Falcon: Good luck with closing this discussion. - just a friendly reminder :-)
Marcocapelle (
talk) 12:07, 2 December 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.