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Category:Songs about bridges
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Nominator's rationale: Category was deleted per consensus following a
CfD in December 2011. Recreated but since consensus can change, I thought I'd put this nominate it for deletion again. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete. That any of the songs are "about bridges" is questionable because the use of a bridge's name in the title is often incidental. For example, I would say that Sous le Pont d'Avignon is a song about dancing. I would think that a category like this will invite misuse. It is in fact a category for song titles that include the word bridge (or pont).
Izzat Kutebar (
talk)
21:12, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per
previous CfD. Mention of a bridge is NOT defining. Also opposed to listify unless a scholarly reason for the list is given, again, not just a list of songs that happen to mention a bridge as a literary device! --
Richhoncho (
talk)
09:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Generation ship fiction
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The result of the discussion was:rename. Although no other editors have expressed support, the nomination seems valid, and the target name conforms better with sibling categories. –
FayenaticLondon20:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users
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Comment I can't really see the point of this as you will never type "Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users" into the search bar. You always type "
CAT:G5". Renaming would break a lot of links. L293D (
☎ •
✎)23:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sports in Fridley, Minnesota
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Keep As Fridley, Minnesota is a city of around 27000, there are many sport teams, venues and events for growing this category!
Mircea (
talk)
07:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sports in Highland, California
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Category:Sports in Cypress, California
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Category:Sports venues in Cypress, California
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Category:Sports in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Baseball in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Baseball teams in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Monasteries in Scotland by order
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Removing the Roman epithet, even though unperfect, makes it very hard to maintain a coherent category tree for Eastern Catholic topics.
Place Clichy (
talk)
13:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep and instead delete the "Roman Catholic" ones, due to potential Anglican/Episcopalian foundations (not so much outwith Scotland – but we might as well have consistency everywhere).--Newbiepedian (
talk ·
C · X! ·
L)
00:38, 20 April 2018 (UTC)reply
support I don't think there's any place where there are enough Anglican establishments to support a break out by country and order, so the "by order" cats only make sense in the (Roman) Catholic substructure, and we already have the right parent cats for that.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: With additions as noted above.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon15:55, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Admin comment: these ought to have been listed for merging rather than deletion, as a few of the sub-cats were missing from the Roman Catholic ones; however, those omissions have now been corrected, so merging from the "by order" categories would now have the same outcome as deletion. It's usually safer to list for "merge" than "delete", though, in case anyone changes the contents during the discussion. –
FayenaticLondon16:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
REverse merge The RC category
Category:Roman Catholic monasteries in England by order (or whatever we have for this) should be merged to
Category:Monasteries in England by order, etc. The vast majority of these will be pre-Reformation (i.e. pre-Dissolution, pre-1539), when there was only one Christian denomination in England, so that RC is redundant. There will be a small number of 19th century and later RC monasteries and I think Anglican ones, which probably need separate trees for modern monasteries. There were no monasteries between 1539 and mid/late 19th century, so that combining medieval and modern in a single tree is undesirable.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep or Move to Category:Roman Catholic monasteries in XXX by order. Classification by monastic order makes very much sense, at least for Catholic monasteries and maybe for other faiths as well. It is a defining characteristic. Moving the content, when applicable, to an intersecting subcategory would solve the duplication issue. It would also allow a better categorisation for monasteries which either are not Catholic, or Roman Catholic, or who do not yet have a by order category created for them.
Place Clichy (
talk)
13:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bronze Age sites in Greece
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Category:Bronze Age Greek art
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That's worse than the present cat, since quite a bit is now in museums elsewhere, like the
Minoan Bull-leaper (London) and the sarcophagus in Hanover. "National art in Country" categories are a nightmare, & best avoided at a high level.
Johnbod (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bronze Age palaces in Greece
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Category:Gail Godwin
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Category:John Barth
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Category:Dan Simmons
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Category:People associated with William Blake
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Strong keep -- the scholarship on Blake's acquaintances, and circle of community members is very well established. The roles these folks play are widely variable, because Blake, and his biography, defy a lot of different conventional classification system. Shifting folks to subcategories when appropriate (i.e in the case of Blake scholars) seems the best tactic for this space.
Sadads (
talk)
13:57, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet). Move the subcategory directly under
Category:William Blake.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with James Joyce
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Keep as is the scholarship on Joyce, has an overabundence of reflection on, and engagement with his acquaintances -- like Blake and Shakespeare, he is going to be one of the exceptions to challenge the rule in most cases.
Sadads (
talk)
16:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet). Move the subcategory directly under
Category:James Joyce.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Shakespeare
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Keep Shakespeare is somewhat unique in that there is an almost absurd amount of reliable sources on anything associated with him (i.e. the "associated" part is the only sane categorization based on the reliable sources). Take
Ben Jonson, who would disappear out of the category tree below
Category:William Shakespeare without the ability to say he is associated with Shakespeare. Unlike
William Kempe, Jonson wasn't a
Category:Shakespearean actors, or a member or sharer in
Category:King's Men (playing company), and so forth. But every biography of Shakespeare (of which there are an absurd number) will at least mention Jonson in various contexts (influences between the two men's works, in either direction; biographical intersections, social, financial, political; Johnson's contribution to Shakespeare's postumous reputation; and probably a bunch more if you go looking). The same sort of thing will hold for all the other entries in this category that do not obviously fall within the other subcategories (
Emilia Lanier,
Robert Chester (poet), and
Leonard Digges (writer) being the three first that jumped out at me). --
Xover (
talk)
13:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Jonson is, in fact, in addition to his independent notability, a sub-topic within Shakespearean studies, as explained above, and biographers of one will normally refer to the other in various ways (e.g. Jonson defined as "a contemporary of / influence on / influenced by / etc. … Shakespeare). But that's neither here nor there, as that wasn't my argument. --
Xover (
talk)
20:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Lugnuts: While I wouldn't bother arguing against such a move, I'll make the general note that I find adding the given name here is an example of excessive specificity (ala. the reasoning of
WP:COMMONNAME). Nobody is going to see a bare "
Shakespeare" and assume we're referring to
fishing equipment or
ghost towns in New Mexico. The urge to impose symmetry, with other categories that do need the full name, is strong, but in some cases it would best be resisted. --
Xover (
talk)
20:27, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep/Comment. I created this in order to thin out
Category:William Shakespeare a little. I don't think it's overly full or marked by overly tenuous connections. I could theoretically support deletion if everything that needed to be categorized in a more specific way was thus categorized (actors in Shakespeare's companies, writers of documents that provide evidence of Shakespeare's life and work, collaborators of Shakespeare, printers and editors of Shakespeare, and more!) but ultimately that doesn't seem likely to happen. Ben Jonson seems to be one of the few people in the category who isn't best known for his connection to Shakespeare. –
Roscelese (
talk ⋅
contribs)
19:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Move the subcats immediately under
Category:William Shakespeare and delete the remainder per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep as
Category:People associated with William Shakespeare, but purge. I accept that we do not like ASSOCIATED WITH categories as there is no boundary. Having sampled the content, a good many of the articles would be better in a category relating to the theatrical companies to which Shakespeare was the playwright. This is different from Shakespearean actors, which seems to be an
WP:PERFormance category for actors who perform Shakespearean plays (and perhaps ought not to be allowed). This may leave "people suggested as authors of Shakespeare's plays" and a few more. In other words, my objective would be to make this (as much as possible) into a container category. Ultimately the object should be to get something with sufficiently few articles directly categorised that we can merge it back to
Category:William Shakespeare without cluttering that up.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Gilbert and Sullivan
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. The late suggestion by Peterkingiron to split the category might be worth a fresh discussion. –
FayenaticLondon14:54, 10 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep – Very surprised to see this category suggested for removal. Decidedly useful in pulling together articles that might otherwise seem unrelated in some cases, and I agree with the comments from Johnbod and Ssilvers. Tim riley talk19:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Split and purge -- On sampling I found people associated with the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company; actors who have performed G&S (for whom there is a subcat already), a person involved with G&S recordings, and a few whose connection was tenuous (which is why we have the
WP:OCASSOC guideline. I would hope that when a few new subcats have bene created, this can be merged back to the main G&S category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Charles Bukowski
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Category:Philip José Farmer
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Delete -- The bio-article will make a main article for the subcat. Do not upmerge, as Amercan male writers is too large to be useful and the bio should be in the more specific category, while the subcat is in a specific works category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:James Ellroy
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Category:Ken Wilber
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Category:Geoff Johns
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Category:John D. MacDonald
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I didn't know about
WP:OCEPON at the time. I'd looked at
Category:American male writers as a whole to see if there is a practice of creating the authors' categories (and then, yep, erroneously added to the newly created category not the "Writers" but its subcategory
American male novelists). According to WP:OCEPON: "Eponymous categories named after people should not be created unless enough directly related articles or subcategories exist". I suppose that the categories mentioning the person in their names are related to them pretty directly. However, if two subcategories is not enough, I don't object to the deletion. --
INS Pirat (
talk)
12:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is not the classic case because there are two subcats. "Films based on works" can go under "works", which leaves only the bio-article will make a main article for the "works" subcat.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as duplicating an existing topic
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Rename.
User:ansh666's concern is misplaced, as most links can be updated with a single edit to
Template:CSD-categories. Editors with the category on their watchlist should see its deletion on their watchlist, and be able to find a link to this discussion in order to watch the new name. –
FayenaticLondon21:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs about bridges
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Nominator's rationale: Category was deleted per consensus following a
CfD in December 2011. Recreated but since consensus can change, I thought I'd put this nominate it for deletion again. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me18:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete. That any of the songs are "about bridges" is questionable because the use of a bridge's name in the title is often incidental. For example, I would say that Sous le Pont d'Avignon is a song about dancing. I would think that a category like this will invite misuse. It is in fact a category for song titles that include the word bridge (or pont).
Izzat Kutebar (
talk)
21:12, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per
previous CfD. Mention of a bridge is NOT defining. Also opposed to listify unless a scholarly reason for the list is given, again, not just a list of songs that happen to mention a bridge as a literary device! --
Richhoncho (
talk)
09:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Generation ship fiction
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The result of the discussion was:rename. Although no other editors have expressed support, the nomination seems valid, and the target name conforms better with sibling categories. –
FayenaticLondon20:16, 17 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users
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Comment I can't really see the point of this as you will never type "Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as having been created by blocked or banned users" into the search bar. You always type "
CAT:G5". Renaming would break a lot of links. L293D (
☎ •
✎)23:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sports in Fridley, Minnesota
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Keep As Fridley, Minnesota is a city of around 27000, there are many sport teams, venues and events for growing this category!
Mircea (
talk)
07:38, 11 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Sports in Highland, California
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Category:Sports in Cypress, California
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Category:Sports venues in Cypress, California
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Category:Sports in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Baseball in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Baseball teams in Harwich, Massachusetts
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Category:Monasteries in Scotland by order
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Removing the Roman epithet, even though unperfect, makes it very hard to maintain a coherent category tree for Eastern Catholic topics.
Place Clichy (
talk)
13:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep and instead delete the "Roman Catholic" ones, due to potential Anglican/Episcopalian foundations (not so much outwith Scotland – but we might as well have consistency everywhere).--Newbiepedian (
talk ·
C · X! ·
L)
00:38, 20 April 2018 (UTC)reply
support I don't think there's any place where there are enough Anglican establishments to support a break out by country and order, so the "by order" cats only make sense in the (Roman) Catholic substructure, and we already have the right parent cats for that.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: With additions as noted above.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –
FayenaticLondon15:55, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Admin comment: these ought to have been listed for merging rather than deletion, as a few of the sub-cats were missing from the Roman Catholic ones; however, those omissions have now been corrected, so merging from the "by order" categories would now have the same outcome as deletion. It's usually safer to list for "merge" than "delete", though, in case anyone changes the contents during the discussion. –
FayenaticLondon16:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
REverse merge The RC category
Category:Roman Catholic monasteries in England by order (or whatever we have for this) should be merged to
Category:Monasteries in England by order, etc. The vast majority of these will be pre-Reformation (i.e. pre-Dissolution, pre-1539), when there was only one Christian denomination in England, so that RC is redundant. There will be a small number of 19th century and later RC monasteries and I think Anglican ones, which probably need separate trees for modern monasteries. There were no monasteries between 1539 and mid/late 19th century, so that combining medieval and modern in a single tree is undesirable.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep or Move to Category:Roman Catholic monasteries in XXX by order. Classification by monastic order makes very much sense, at least for Catholic monasteries and maybe for other faiths as well. It is a defining characteristic. Moving the content, when applicable, to an intersecting subcategory would solve the duplication issue. It would also allow a better categorisation for monasteries which either are not Catholic, or Roman Catholic, or who do not yet have a by order category created for them.
Place Clichy (
talk)
13:34, 23 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bronze Age sites in Greece
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Category:Bronze Age Greek art
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That's worse than the present cat, since quite a bit is now in museums elsewhere, like the
Minoan Bull-leaper (London) and the sarcophagus in Hanover. "National art in Country" categories are a nightmare, & best avoided at a high level.
Johnbod (
talk)
17:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Bronze Age palaces in Greece
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Category:Gail Godwin
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Category:John Barth
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Category:Dan Simmons
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Category:People associated with William Blake
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Strong keep -- the scholarship on Blake's acquaintances, and circle of community members is very well established. The roles these folks play are widely variable, because Blake, and his biography, defy a lot of different conventional classification system. Shifting folks to subcategories when appropriate (i.e in the case of Blake scholars) seems the best tactic for this space.
Sadads (
talk)
13:57, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet). Move the subcategory directly under
Category:William Blake.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with James Joyce
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Keep as is the scholarship on Joyce, has an overabundence of reflection on, and engagement with his acquaintances -- like Blake and Shakespeare, he is going to be one of the exceptions to challenge the rule in most cases.
Sadads (
talk)
16:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet). Move the subcategory directly under
Category:James Joyce.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Shakespeare
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Keep Shakespeare is somewhat unique in that there is an almost absurd amount of reliable sources on anything associated with him (i.e. the "associated" part is the only sane categorization based on the reliable sources). Take
Ben Jonson, who would disappear out of the category tree below
Category:William Shakespeare without the ability to say he is associated with Shakespeare. Unlike
William Kempe, Jonson wasn't a
Category:Shakespearean actors, or a member or sharer in
Category:King's Men (playing company), and so forth. But every biography of Shakespeare (of which there are an absurd number) will at least mention Jonson in various contexts (influences between the two men's works, in either direction; biographical intersections, social, financial, political; Johnson's contribution to Shakespeare's postumous reputation; and probably a bunch more if you go looking). The same sort of thing will hold for all the other entries in this category that do not obviously fall within the other subcategories (
Emilia Lanier,
Robert Chester (poet), and
Leonard Digges (writer) being the three first that jumped out at me). --
Xover (
talk)
13:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Jonson is, in fact, in addition to his independent notability, a sub-topic within Shakespearean studies, as explained above, and biographers of one will normally refer to the other in various ways (e.g. Jonson defined as "a contemporary of / influence on / influenced by / etc. … Shakespeare). But that's neither here nor there, as that wasn't my argument. --
Xover (
talk)
20:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Lugnuts: While I wouldn't bother arguing against such a move, I'll make the general note that I find adding the given name here is an example of excessive specificity (ala. the reasoning of
WP:COMMONNAME). Nobody is going to see a bare "
Shakespeare" and assume we're referring to
fishing equipment or
ghost towns in New Mexico. The urge to impose symmetry, with other categories that do need the full name, is strong, but in some cases it would best be resisted. --
Xover (
talk)
20:27, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep/Comment. I created this in order to thin out
Category:William Shakespeare a little. I don't think it's overly full or marked by overly tenuous connections. I could theoretically support deletion if everything that needed to be categorized in a more specific way was thus categorized (actors in Shakespeare's companies, writers of documents that provide evidence of Shakespeare's life and work, collaborators of Shakespeare, printers and editors of Shakespeare, and more!) but ultimately that doesn't seem likely to happen. Ben Jonson seems to be one of the few people in the category who isn't best known for his connection to Shakespeare. –
Roscelese (
talk ⋅
contribs)
19:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Move the subcats immediately under
Category:William Shakespeare and delete the remainder per guideline, unless a good reason is provided why we would deviate from the guideline for this particular category (and I haven't seen a good reason yet).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
09:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep as
Category:People associated with William Shakespeare, but purge. I accept that we do not like ASSOCIATED WITH categories as there is no boundary. Having sampled the content, a good many of the articles would be better in a category relating to the theatrical companies to which Shakespeare was the playwright. This is different from Shakespearean actors, which seems to be an
WP:PERFormance category for actors who perform Shakespearean plays (and perhaps ought not to be allowed). This may leave "people suggested as authors of Shakespeare's plays" and a few more. In other words, my objective would be to make this (as much as possible) into a container category. Ultimately the object should be to get something with sufficiently few articles directly categorised that we can merge it back to
Category:William Shakespeare without cluttering that up.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Gilbert and Sullivan
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. The late suggestion by Peterkingiron to split the category might be worth a fresh discussion. –
FayenaticLondon14:54, 10 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep – Very surprised to see this category suggested for removal. Decidedly useful in pulling together articles that might otherwise seem unrelated in some cases, and I agree with the comments from Johnbod and Ssilvers. Tim riley talk19:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Split and purge -- On sampling I found people associated with the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company; actors who have performed G&S (for whom there is a subcat already), a person involved with G&S recordings, and a few whose connection was tenuous (which is why we have the
WP:OCASSOC guideline. I would hope that when a few new subcats have bene created, this can be merged back to the main G&S category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Charles Bukowski
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Category:Philip José Farmer
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Delete -- The bio-article will make a main article for the subcat. Do not upmerge, as Amercan male writers is too large to be useful and the bio should be in the more specific category, while the subcat is in a specific works category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:34, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:James Ellroy
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Category:Ken Wilber
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Category:Geoff Johns
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Category:John D. MacDonald
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I didn't know about
WP:OCEPON at the time. I'd looked at
Category:American male writers as a whole to see if there is a practice of creating the authors' categories (and then, yep, erroneously added to the newly created category not the "Writers" but its subcategory
American male novelists). According to WP:OCEPON: "Eponymous categories named after people should not be created unless enough directly related articles or subcategories exist". I suppose that the categories mentioning the person in their names are related to them pretty directly. However, if two subcategories is not enough, I don't object to the deletion. --
INS Pirat (
talk)
12:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete -- This is not the classic case because there are two subcats. "Films based on works" can go under "works", which leaves only the bio-article will make a main article for the "works" subcat.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:40, 13 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as duplicating an existing topic
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Rename.
User:ansh666's concern is misplaced, as most links can be updated with a single edit to
Template:CSD-categories. Editors with the category on their watchlist should see its deletion on their watchlist, and be able to find a link to this discussion in order to watch the new name. –
FayenaticLondon21:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)reply
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