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Category:Punjabi Rajputs
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Category:Picture books by Arthur Rackham
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delete there are a couple of books where Rackham was the illustrator (and which gain some of their notability because of that), but going through the list in his bio, in general he provided plates for some particular edition of an established work, so
WP:NONDEF would in general apply. Also, it's not clear that any of these are "picture books" in he modern sense, and as far as I can tell he didn't write any of them; he provided illustrations for the stories of others.
Mangoe (
talk)
22:02, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete: Redundant in purpose to
Category:Books illustrated by Arthur Rackham, and two of the three entries are mis-entries, being not articles on books but articles on folktales (
Cinderella and the
Pied Piper of Hamelin). The third fits into the other category, since it is a book he illustrated. Whether it's a "picture book" is open to interpretation and would appear to be irrelevant. And "by Arthur Rackham" is grossly misleading in this construction, imply sole authorship. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 09:47, 11 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Female geologists
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Procedural comment. If the intention is also to rename the subcats, they should be tagged and listed. I suggest that the best way to proceed is to relist this discussion on today's CfD, and add the subcats. I would be happy to do both if that's OK with @
Courcelles. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
14:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Oh, I'm sorry, it's been years since I've been active with CFD and I just plain forgot. Yeah, if you're willing, feel free, the subcats need to be renamed as well.
Courcelles (
talk)
14:53, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Israeli volleyball biography stubs
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Category:Sextet sibling groups
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Category:Wikipedia Cabal decrees
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge to parent. This is all hilarious material, but the nominated category is just a handful of essays, and that's what the parent category is too (plus associated templates). The only difference is that the ones in the nominated category are supposedly official decrees of the fictional cabal, and that's not a good reason for a subcategory. In the end, all it does is bury some of the humor pages deeper into a category structure for no reason. (Disclaimer: I created the parent category, to gather all the cabal-related joke pages and essays into one spot; afterwards, I realized the "decrees" cluster is illusory.) —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 16:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Spanish language youtubers
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If kept, fix spelling to "YouTubers". I have to go with keep. A category series like this is arguably at least as useful as
Category:YouTubers by nationality, and is consistent with
Category:Films by language, etc. (the fact that there's some overlap with
Category:Films by country has never been an issue). They're just completely different criteria that exist for different reasons (classification by jurisdiction and classification by language of communication, which is trans-national). So, yes, we would eventually have
Category:YouTubers by language. That said, I think at some point we'll need a more generalized category. YouTube already has competition, and is unlikely to last forever. These people should ultimately by classified by a broader term, whether that be vloggers or online broadcasters or whatever; I think we'll have a better idea what that should be when the time comes to do it. The long-term problem with
Category:YouTubers is that's its too specific in the same way that "Category:Actors on HBO" or "Category:WordPress.com bloggers" would be. YouTube is a conduit, not a publisher or a publication (in
WP:CS1 citation template terms, it's a |via=). While we might keep
Category:The New York Times writers (not quite a PERFCAT) we eventually would not keep these YT ones at this name, especially given that some of them are already on multiple sites, and tools like
IFTTT make it easier and easier to e-publish simultaneously (or in a timed manner) on multiple platforms. Give it 5 years? 2? Who knows. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 15:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Administrative territorial entities
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. This discussion has been open for 81 days, and relisting generated no further comments, so there's point keeping it open. There was general unhappiness with the term "administrative territorial entities", but no agreement on what label is best for a set which could be described verbosely as "geographical areas created by humans for political or administrative purposes (e.g. countries, states, counties, provinces, wards, constitencies, civil parishes, raions, oblasts), rather than physically-derived areas (e.g. islands, continents), biologically-science-defined areas (e.g.
biogeographic realms/ecozones), or divisions created for other types of human study (e.g.
cultural areas, or zones in
economic geography)." Maybe a discussion at
WikiProject Geography would help to clarify what terminology is used by English-language geographers, and maybe form the basis of a further CfD? Pinging the participants, in case my suggestion is any help: @
Fayenatic london,
Peterkingiron, and
Marcocapelle. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This category holds countries, states, counties, cities etc. It was created by
user:Androoox, a sockpuppet of blocked editor
user:Tobias Conradi, as "humangeographic territorial entities". It was later manually renamed to "Administrative territorial entities" by
user:Eldizzino, another sock of the same editor. That editor has recently been using various IP socks, see
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Tobias_Conradi. Some of his recent work has been using the CFD Speedy page to rename various branches of the hierarchy to use the same category naming pattern. The fullest justification was "not about some physical entities (e.g. woodlands) but about
Category:Administrative territorial entities".
[1] This seems fair enough, but one counter-argument is that the name is rather long and may be longer than necessary. It is high time that the naming of this hierarchy was submitted to a full CFD discussion. –
FayenaticLondon17:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Other parts of the hierarchy were originally created by other editors, e.g. "Territories by language", but this was progressively renamed by socks of Tobias Conradi:
[3] (speedy nomination, which was opposed);
[4] (out of process);
[5] (out of process again). –
FayenaticLondon17:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I suspect that the term that is needed is "polities". However, that may be too technical a word. This is after all only a container category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Does it indeed? In that case it should be called country subdivisions. However, I have not been reading it that way, and it is not used that way. Many ancient kingdoms are categorised as "states and territories established in...", and they were in effect countries. I understood the "states and territories" hierarchy to be inclusive, embracing both countries and subdivisions.
Template:Infobox former country populates it (perhaps
Template:Infobox country too), and that seems fine to me. –
FayenaticLondon09:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
And there is no
Category:States and territories. But there are
Category:Countries and
Category:Categories by country with hundreds of subcategories and
Category:Country subdivisionCategory:Categories by country subdivision. Australia (s,t), Canada (t), India (s,t), Malaysia (s,t), Mexico (s,t), Russia (t) and the United States (s,t): They have or had first-level country subdivisions named "state" or "territory". By which logic "states and territories" could be a better name for the top category for entities named "area, block, borough, canton, circle, city, community, county, department, district, division, hide, municipality, prefecture, protectorate, province, region, reserve, state, territory, town, township, unit, union, ward, zone" than a descriptive term like "administrative territorial entities", which avoids taking position on whether something is a country/state, a territory and the level of a country, or a country subdivision named "state" or "country"?
Would you put country below "states and territories"? If so, why would it be "states and territories" and not "countries and territories" if country is the overwhelmingly used term for sovereign entities?
85.179.110.23 (
talk)
01:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The looming question is whether the hierarchy
States and territories by century of establishment should be renamed. In that hierarchy I had understood "States and territories" as a generic term embracing empires and vassal kingdoms, countries and subdivisions, and provisional countries/subdivisions like the
American pre-State territories. If other editors read that name as meaning "subdivisions" (which has not yet been demonstrated), then it should change. I would be inclined to oppose "administrative territorial entities..." as too long-winded, and prefer "countries and subdivisions".
That is why I added "but keep the current parents". And for that matter, I don't agree with the article
Territory because the word territory may have a much broader meaning (like in the current category name, Administrative territorial entities, which includes countries, but also e.g. animals may have a territory). The article should better be renamed to
Territory (country subdivision).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
19:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)reply
So what is your opinion about the nomination? Do you support or oppose the nomination to rename somehow and why? Do you support or oppose any of the alternative names and why?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:11, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The first move was by
User:Eldizzino which has been confirmed by a CheckUser as a sock puppet of Tobias Conradi. The second one was moved by
User:Derianus which is likewise blocked as a suspected sock of the same editor. Looking at the edits by those accounts, I see no reason to doubt that conclusion. –
FayenaticLondon09:29, 12 November 2017 (UTC)reply
I didn't say the contents were all countries. My point was that the categories were moved out-of-process. The current hierarchy using the longwinded category names has all been built by Tobias Conradi without discussion. –
FayenaticLondon09:29, 12 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Just summing up, we have three alternatives here and they all three have a disadvantage, but none of the disadvantages is particularly huge:
keep current name, with a made-up term, with a long name, but it is an accurate descriptor of the content
Category:Countries and subdivisions, it does not cover every type of territory that is in the category, but it is aligns best with current terminology in the category tree
Category:Territories, with an ambiguous term (in some countries?), it is short and accurate (if you take the broader meaning of territory in mind)
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Category:History of management
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Comment: Perhaps we need a
Category: History of commerce as well. And/or a re-write of the article
Business, which Wikipedia defines almost exclusively as relating to individual firms. But management, of course, operates equally in the non-commercial sectors - in government and in not-for-profits. -
Jandalhandler (
talk)
02:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Support nom -- Business history is a recognised academic subject, distinct from economic history, though they are of course related. One of the objectives of business history journals is producing case studies for business schools, whose object is to teach management. Commerce may (as suggested) be slightly wider, but is not treated as an academic subject in its own right.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
12:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Post-grunge lit
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Category:Fictional pangolins
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Nominator's rationale:WP:OCAT. Only two entries, one of which is a redirect. Both entries are fictional beings that only resemble pangolins. The species is clearly too rare to have enough fictional counterparts. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)06:22, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
delete One article of dubious notability, and a Pokemon critter. A picture book about a pet pangolin might be terribly cute but it is clearly a sub-genre whose time has not come.
Mangoe (
talk)
19:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in Kenya
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Strong oppose The current form is standard for works set in x. Like
Category:Works set in New York City. Works can be set in locations, including entirely in that location, without every being about that location. This is standard to how things work, and part of a much larger scheme. On further reflection, we have not created this general works category, but we have films and novels sub-sets, and no good reason to not have a more general parent.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
23:26, 13 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Actually, there do appear to be a dozen or so categories of this format, though they're not tied in to any category tree and are mainly for cities and regions, which is why we missed them. See
here...
Grutness...wha?01:02, 14 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Punjabi Rajputs
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Category:Picture books by Arthur Rackham
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delete there are a couple of books where Rackham was the illustrator (and which gain some of their notability because of that), but going through the list in his bio, in general he provided plates for some particular edition of an established work, so
WP:NONDEF would in general apply. Also, it's not clear that any of these are "picture books" in he modern sense, and as far as I can tell he didn't write any of them; he provided illustrations for the stories of others.
Mangoe (
talk)
22:02, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete: Redundant in purpose to
Category:Books illustrated by Arthur Rackham, and two of the three entries are mis-entries, being not articles on books but articles on folktales (
Cinderella and the
Pied Piper of Hamelin). The third fits into the other category, since it is a book he illustrated. Whether it's a "picture book" is open to interpretation and would appear to be irrelevant. And "by Arthur Rackham" is grossly misleading in this construction, imply sole authorship. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 09:47, 11 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Female geologists
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Procedural comment. If the intention is also to rename the subcats, they should be tagged and listed. I suggest that the best way to proceed is to relist this discussion on today's CfD, and add the subcats. I would be happy to do both if that's OK with @
Courcelles. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
14:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Oh, I'm sorry, it's been years since I've been active with CFD and I just plain forgot. Yeah, if you're willing, feel free, the subcats need to be renamed as well.
Courcelles (
talk)
14:53, 17 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Israeli volleyball biography stubs
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Category:Sextet sibling groups
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Category:Wikipedia Cabal decrees
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge to parent. This is all hilarious material, but the nominated category is just a handful of essays, and that's what the parent category is too (plus associated templates). The only difference is that the ones in the nominated category are supposedly official decrees of the fictional cabal, and that's not a good reason for a subcategory. In the end, all it does is bury some of the humor pages deeper into a category structure for no reason. (Disclaimer: I created the parent category, to gather all the cabal-related joke pages and essays into one spot; afterwards, I realized the "decrees" cluster is illusory.) —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 16:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Spanish language youtubers
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If kept, fix spelling to "YouTubers". I have to go with keep. A category series like this is arguably at least as useful as
Category:YouTubers by nationality, and is consistent with
Category:Films by language, etc. (the fact that there's some overlap with
Category:Films by country has never been an issue). They're just completely different criteria that exist for different reasons (classification by jurisdiction and classification by language of communication, which is trans-national). So, yes, we would eventually have
Category:YouTubers by language. That said, I think at some point we'll need a more generalized category. YouTube already has competition, and is unlikely to last forever. These people should ultimately by classified by a broader term, whether that be vloggers or online broadcasters or whatever; I think we'll have a better idea what that should be when the time comes to do it. The long-term problem with
Category:YouTubers is that's its too specific in the same way that "Category:Actors on HBO" or "Category:WordPress.com bloggers" would be. YouTube is a conduit, not a publisher or a publication (in
WP:CS1 citation template terms, it's a |via=). While we might keep
Category:The New York Times writers (not quite a PERFCAT) we eventually would not keep these YT ones at this name, especially given that some of them are already on multiple sites, and tools like
IFTTT make it easier and easier to e-publish simultaneously (or in a timed manner) on multiple platforms. Give it 5 years? 2? Who knows. —
SMcCandlish☏¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 15:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Administrative territorial entities
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The result of the discussion was:no consensus. This discussion has been open for 81 days, and relisting generated no further comments, so there's point keeping it open. There was general unhappiness with the term "administrative territorial entities", but no agreement on what label is best for a set which could be described verbosely as "geographical areas created by humans for political or administrative purposes (e.g. countries, states, counties, provinces, wards, constitencies, civil parishes, raions, oblasts), rather than physically-derived areas (e.g. islands, continents), biologically-science-defined areas (e.g.
biogeographic realms/ecozones), or divisions created for other types of human study (e.g.
cultural areas, or zones in
economic geography)." Maybe a discussion at
WikiProject Geography would help to clarify what terminology is used by English-language geographers, and maybe form the basis of a further CfD? Pinging the participants, in case my suggestion is any help: @
Fayenatic london,
Peterkingiron, and
Marcocapelle. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:28, 18 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: This category holds countries, states, counties, cities etc. It was created by
user:Androoox, a sockpuppet of blocked editor
user:Tobias Conradi, as "humangeographic territorial entities". It was later manually renamed to "Administrative territorial entities" by
user:Eldizzino, another sock of the same editor. That editor has recently been using various IP socks, see
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Tobias_Conradi. Some of his recent work has been using the CFD Speedy page to rename various branches of the hierarchy to use the same category naming pattern. The fullest justification was "not about some physical entities (e.g. woodlands) but about
Category:Administrative territorial entities".
[1] This seems fair enough, but one counter-argument is that the name is rather long and may be longer than necessary. It is high time that the naming of this hierarchy was submitted to a full CFD discussion. –
FayenaticLondon17:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Other parts of the hierarchy were originally created by other editors, e.g. "Territories by language", but this was progressively renamed by socks of Tobias Conradi:
[3] (speedy nomination, which was opposed);
[4] (out of process);
[5] (out of process again). –
FayenaticLondon17:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I suspect that the term that is needed is "polities". However, that may be too technical a word. This is after all only a container category.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Does it indeed? In that case it should be called country subdivisions. However, I have not been reading it that way, and it is not used that way. Many ancient kingdoms are categorised as "states and territories established in...", and they were in effect countries. I understood the "states and territories" hierarchy to be inclusive, embracing both countries and subdivisions.
Template:Infobox former country populates it (perhaps
Template:Infobox country too), and that seems fine to me. –
FayenaticLondon09:16, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
And there is no
Category:States and territories. But there are
Category:Countries and
Category:Categories by country with hundreds of subcategories and
Category:Country subdivisionCategory:Categories by country subdivision. Australia (s,t), Canada (t), India (s,t), Malaysia (s,t), Mexico (s,t), Russia (t) and the United States (s,t): They have or had first-level country subdivisions named "state" or "territory". By which logic "states and territories" could be a better name for the top category for entities named "area, block, borough, canton, circle, city, community, county, department, district, division, hide, municipality, prefecture, protectorate, province, region, reserve, state, territory, town, township, unit, union, ward, zone" than a descriptive term like "administrative territorial entities", which avoids taking position on whether something is a country/state, a territory and the level of a country, or a country subdivision named "state" or "country"?
Would you put country below "states and territories"? If so, why would it be "states and territories" and not "countries and territories" if country is the overwhelmingly used term for sovereign entities?
85.179.110.23 (
talk)
01:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The looming question is whether the hierarchy
States and territories by century of establishment should be renamed. In that hierarchy I had understood "States and territories" as a generic term embracing empires and vassal kingdoms, countries and subdivisions, and provisional countries/subdivisions like the
American pre-State territories. If other editors read that name as meaning "subdivisions" (which has not yet been demonstrated), then it should change. I would be inclined to oppose "administrative territorial entities..." as too long-winded, and prefer "countries and subdivisions".
That is why I added "but keep the current parents". And for that matter, I don't agree with the article
Territory because the word territory may have a much broader meaning (like in the current category name, Administrative territorial entities, which includes countries, but also e.g. animals may have a territory). The article should better be renamed to
Territory (country subdivision).
Marcocapelle (
talk)
19:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)reply
So what is your opinion about the nomination? Do you support or oppose the nomination to rename somehow and why? Do you support or oppose any of the alternative names and why?
Marcocapelle (
talk)
21:11, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The first move was by
User:Eldizzino which has been confirmed by a CheckUser as a sock puppet of Tobias Conradi. The second one was moved by
User:Derianus which is likewise blocked as a suspected sock of the same editor. Looking at the edits by those accounts, I see no reason to doubt that conclusion. –
FayenaticLondon09:29, 12 November 2017 (UTC)reply
I didn't say the contents were all countries. My point was that the categories were moved out-of-process. The current hierarchy using the longwinded category names has all been built by Tobias Conradi without discussion. –
FayenaticLondon09:29, 12 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Just summing up, we have three alternatives here and they all three have a disadvantage, but none of the disadvantages is particularly huge:
keep current name, with a made-up term, with a long name, but it is an accurate descriptor of the content
Category:Countries and subdivisions, it does not cover every type of territory that is in the category, but it is aligns best with current terminology in the category tree
Category:Territories, with an ambiguous term (in some countries?), it is short and accurate (if you take the broader meaning of territory in mind)
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Category:History of management
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Comment: Perhaps we need a
Category: History of commerce as well. And/or a re-write of the article
Business, which Wikipedia defines almost exclusively as relating to individual firms. But management, of course, operates equally in the non-commercial sectors - in government and in not-for-profits. -
Jandalhandler (
talk)
02:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Support nom -- Business history is a recognised academic subject, distinct from economic history, though they are of course related. One of the objectives of business history journals is producing case studies for business schools, whose object is to teach management. Commerce may (as suggested) be slightly wider, but is not treated as an academic subject in its own right.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
12:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Post-grunge lit
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Category:Fictional pangolins
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Nominator's rationale:WP:OCAT. Only two entries, one of which is a redirect. Both entries are fictional beings that only resemble pangolins. The species is clearly too rare to have enough fictional counterparts. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)06:22, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
delete One article of dubious notability, and a Pokemon critter. A picture book about a pet pangolin might be terribly cute but it is clearly a sub-genre whose time has not come.
Mangoe (
talk)
19:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Works set in Kenya
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Strong oppose The current form is standard for works set in x. Like
Category:Works set in New York City. Works can be set in locations, including entirely in that location, without every being about that location. This is standard to how things work, and part of a much larger scheme. On further reflection, we have not created this general works category, but we have films and novels sub-sets, and no good reason to not have a more general parent.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
23:26, 13 January 2018 (UTC)reply
Actually, there do appear to be a dozen or so categories of this format, though they're not tied in to any category tree and are mainly for cities and regions, which is why we missed them. See
here...
Grutness...wha?01:02, 14 January 2018 (UTC)reply
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