- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 08:46, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Nominator's rationale: Essentially empty category (the only listed article is not specific to this category - it belongs in "psychedelic folk." See also AfD discussion re: the Catholic Psychedelic Synth Folk article. Jmertel23 ( talk) 20:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: keep.
ℯ
xplicit
05:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Catholicism to Category:Catholicity
- Nominator's rationale: Per main article, further supported by that actual Catholicism article redirects to Catholicity. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 13:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support - we need a term more inclusive than Catholicism, which redirects to Catholic Church, which has recently become synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church, on Wikipedia if not in fact. (It is Catholicism (term) which redirects to Catholicity.) Oculi ( talk) 17:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, they are completely different terms. While Catholicism is most commonly associated with the faith and practices of the Catholic Church led by the Pope in Rome, the traits of Catholicity, and thus the term Catholic, are also claimed and possessed by other denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East. It also occurs in Lutheranism, Anglicanism, as well as Independent Catholicism and other Christian denominations. This text isn't invented by myself, I've merely copied it from the Catholicity article which I haven't personally edited. In my own words: Catholicism is a religious movement (with the Catholic Church as its best known formal organization), while Catholicity is a claim by multiple religious movements. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the contents? Category:Catholicism includes many of the non-Roman catholic entities you have mentioned. We have Category:Catholic Church for the Roman part and another word is required to include the whole catholic church (small c). Oculi ( talk) 22:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- I have not seen the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, Lutheranism or broad Anglicanism. Thee is just one particular part of Anglicanism that quite strongly identifies with Catholicism (not Catholicity). Marcocapelle ( talk) 03:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Do you not notice Category:Independent Catholic denominations? Do you not observe that the main article is Catholicity? Do you fail to see that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church, which would usually require the 2 categories Category:Catholicism and Category:Catholic Church to be merged? This category needs to be renamed. Oculi ( talk) 08:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- In addition to the comment of Oculi, please note Category:Independent Catholicism, and Category:Anglo-Catholicism. Everything is alright. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- I had noticed Category:Independent Catholic denominations indeed. The reason I did not explicitly mentioned this category was that I suspected (perhaps wrongly) that it is entirely obvious that independent Catholic denominations belong to Catholicism, perhaps even more obvious than Anglo-Catholicism belongs to Catholicism. Regrettably there is no article about Catholicism, but that is not a reason to set Catholicism equal to the Catholic Church, nor is it a reason to set Catholicism equal to Catholicity. I can't see a reason for starting a new set Category:Catholicity either, because it would contain most Christian churches and would hence largely overlap with Category:Christian denominational families. 'Even' reformed churches sometimes claim catholicity, see e.g. Reformed Catholic confessing (in Dutch). Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Procedural comment, we recently had another discussion about this category with no consensus as result. There was also some other occasion (though I forgot when) in which I argued that there is nothing wrong with a Category:Catholicism because it is a completely natural sibling category of Category:Protestantism, Category:Eastern Orthodoxy etc. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose They are completely different terms. Independent Catholics fit quite comfortably in this parent. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 22:53, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose -- Catholicism covers more than just the (Roman) Catholic Church. Catholicity is closely tied to that one denomination. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. These are not the same thing. Catholicity is a term used by just about any Christian faith. Catholicism specifically described a branch of Christianity, which is not synonymous either with the Catholic Church as it encompasses movements that detached from or joined the Church over time while keeping their Catholic character: Old Catholics, Independent Catholics, Gallicans, traditionalists, Anglo-Catholics etc., with a special place for Eastern Catholics which are in communion with the Catholic Church but not Roman Catholics. also, it was not very wise not to provide a link to the recent discussion on the same category. Place Clichy ( talk) 17:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: keep. The biographies articles will be purged. ℯ xplicit 05:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Nominator's rationale: delete, as it is entirely unclear what Esperanto workers movement means. No need to merge, because 4 articles are already in Category:German Esperantists and the other 2 articles already in Category:Esperanto organizations. Marcocapelle ( talk) 08:24, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Delete for NowWithout a main article Esperanto workers movement, I have no idea what the inclusion criteria would be. Willing to revisit if/when that article appears. RevelationDirect ( talk) 03:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)- Propose retaining — I have now translated a main article for this category from the equivalent Esperanto-language page,
Laborista Esperanto-movado, hoping to satisfy the criterion of
RevelationDirect, above. The Esperanto workers movement can be seen as a Venn diagram in the intersection of the Esperanto movement and of the international labour movement
— Objectivesea ( talk) 06:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- While I agree that the original rationale no longer applies there are still two issues left. The four biographies should still be purged. And after purging the category becomes so small that the new article may better be moved to Category:Esperanto movement and the category may be deleted after all. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Keep but Purge The category now has four legitimate articles that match the new main article: Esperanto workers movement, Arbeidernes Esperantoforbund, Rudi Graetz, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda and the recent addition has shown room for growth. (Marcocapelle is correct though: the other biography articles don't belong here--or at least the current articles on English Wikipedia don't have enough information to show that they belong.) RevelationDirect ( talk) 04:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - or upmerge to the 2 parent categories Category:Esperanto movement and Category:Labour movement. Oculi ( talk) 12:25, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Delete. Timrollpickering 08:46, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Nominator's rationale: Essentially empty category (the only listed article is not specific to this category - it belongs in "psychedelic folk." See also AfD discussion re: the Catholic Psychedelic Synth Folk article. Jmertel23 ( talk) 20:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: keep.
ℯ
xplicit
05:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Catholicism to Category:Catholicity
- Nominator's rationale: Per main article, further supported by that actual Catholicism article redirects to Catholicity. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 13:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Support - we need a term more inclusive than Catholicism, which redirects to Catholic Church, which has recently become synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church, on Wikipedia if not in fact. (It is Catholicism (term) which redirects to Catholicity.) Oculi ( talk) 17:50, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose, they are completely different terms. While Catholicism is most commonly associated with the faith and practices of the Catholic Church led by the Pope in Rome, the traits of Catholicity, and thus the term Catholic, are also claimed and possessed by other denominations such as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East. It also occurs in Lutheranism, Anglicanism, as well as Independent Catholicism and other Christian denominations. This text isn't invented by myself, I've merely copied it from the Catholicity article which I haven't personally edited. In my own words: Catholicism is a religious movement (with the Catholic Church as its best known formal organization), while Catholicity is a claim by multiple religious movements. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:32, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- Have you looked at the contents? Category:Catholicism includes many of the non-Roman catholic entities you have mentioned. We have Category:Catholic Church for the Roman part and another word is required to include the whole catholic church (small c). Oculi ( talk) 22:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
- I have not seen the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, Lutheranism or broad Anglicanism. Thee is just one particular part of Anglicanism that quite strongly identifies with Catholicism (not Catholicity). Marcocapelle ( talk) 03:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Do you not notice Category:Independent Catholic denominations? Do you not observe that the main article is Catholicity? Do you fail to see that Catholicism redirects to Catholic Church, which would usually require the 2 categories Category:Catholicism and Category:Catholic Church to be merged? This category needs to be renamed. Oculi ( talk) 08:35, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- In addition to the comment of Oculi, please note Category:Independent Catholicism, and Category:Anglo-Catholicism. Everything is alright. Chicbyaccident ( talk) 12:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- I had noticed Category:Independent Catholic denominations indeed. The reason I did not explicitly mentioned this category was that I suspected (perhaps wrongly) that it is entirely obvious that independent Catholic denominations belong to Catholicism, perhaps even more obvious than Anglo-Catholicism belongs to Catholicism. Regrettably there is no article about Catholicism, but that is not a reason to set Catholicism equal to the Catholic Church, nor is it a reason to set Catholicism equal to Catholicity. I can't see a reason for starting a new set Category:Catholicity either, because it would contain most Christian churches and would hence largely overlap with Category:Christian denominational families. 'Even' reformed churches sometimes claim catholicity, see e.g. Reformed Catholic confessing (in Dutch). Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Procedural comment, we recently had another discussion about this category with no consensus as result. There was also some other occasion (though I forgot when) in which I argued that there is nothing wrong with a Category:Catholicism because it is a completely natural sibling category of Category:Protestantism, Category:Eastern Orthodoxy etc. Marcocapelle ( talk) 19:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose They are completely different terms. Independent Catholics fit quite comfortably in this parent. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 22:53, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose -- Catholicism covers more than just the (Roman) Catholic Church. Catholicity is closely tied to that one denomination. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:55, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. These are not the same thing. Catholicity is a term used by just about any Christian faith. Catholicism specifically described a branch of Christianity, which is not synonymous either with the Catholic Church as it encompasses movements that detached from or joined the Church over time while keeping their Catholic character: Old Catholics, Independent Catholics, Gallicans, traditionalists, Anglo-Catholics etc., with a special place for Eastern Catholics which are in communion with the Catholic Church but not Roman Catholics. also, it was not very wise not to provide a link to the recent discussion on the same category. Place Clichy ( talk) 17:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: keep. The biographies articles will be purged. ℯ xplicit 05:25, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Nominator's rationale: delete, as it is entirely unclear what Esperanto workers movement means. No need to merge, because 4 articles are already in Category:German Esperantists and the other 2 articles already in Category:Esperanto organizations. Marcocapelle ( talk) 08:24, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Delete for NowWithout a main article Esperanto workers movement, I have no idea what the inclusion criteria would be. Willing to revisit if/when that article appears. RevelationDirect ( talk) 03:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)- Propose retaining — I have now translated a main article for this category from the equivalent Esperanto-language page,
Laborista Esperanto-movado, hoping to satisfy the criterion of
RevelationDirect, above. The Esperanto workers movement can be seen as a Venn diagram in the intersection of the Esperanto movement and of the international labour movement
— Objectivesea ( talk) 06:32, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- While I agree that the original rationale no longer applies there are still two issues left. The four biographies should still be purged. And after purging the category becomes so small that the new article may better be moved to Category:Esperanto movement and the category may be deleted after all. Marcocapelle ( talk) 20:27, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
- Keep but Purge The category now has four legitimate articles that match the new main article: Esperanto workers movement, Arbeidernes Esperantoforbund, Rudi Graetz, Sennacieca Asocio Tutmonda and the recent addition has shown room for growth. (Marcocapelle is correct though: the other biography articles don't belong here--or at least the current articles on English Wikipedia don't have enough information to show that they belong.) RevelationDirect ( talk) 04:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ℯ xplicit 00:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - or upmerge to the 2 parent categories Category:Esperanto movement and Category:Labour movement. Oculi ( talk) 12:25, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.