The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Merge. I did a search and only found one other person with a connection to Forest Hills with a WP article, so
WP:SMALLCAT it is. I also think I found the most popular name for cemeteries in the US!
Grutness...wha?03:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
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Lakes of the Republic of Ireland
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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As in Northern Ireland, most inland bodies of water in the Republic of Ireland are known as "Lough Foo". Same in Scotland, though the Scots use the Scots gaelic spelling "Loch".
However, while most Irish inland bodies of water are individually called "Lough Foo" in English, they are collectively referred to in English as "lakes".
See the following searches in
reliable sources for Lakes/Loughs in Ireland:
I also wonder whether those sources for English language usage of the terms lake and lough reflected global usage, rather than local usage. I suspect that most hits from .ie sites would be for "loughs". If so, Loughs should be used.
Grutness...wha?02:50, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Reply@
Grutness: I think it is the inverse of what you suggest. I have never encountered Irish usage describing them collectively as "loughs"; always "lakes". I think the collective use of "loughs" is non-Irish writers making a well-intended but mistaken attempt to use what they wrongly believe to be Irish terminology. I will try if I can devise some searches to verify (or disprove) my hunch. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
04:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
More data. Usage on Irish websites strongly prefers "lakes":
I originally nominated these cats as a speedy, but that was objected to
[1] by @
Johnbod, so I spent the best part of an hour compiling the first set of data. Now I have spent another half hour compiling another set of data in response to @
Grutness.
I know that both editors mean well ... but please can anyone else who wants to weigh in against this actually do their own homework, rather than running off hunches? This simple renaming has taken a wholly disproportionate amount of my time
--
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
06:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I tried, but for some reason google wasn't giving me page counts for .ie only sites, otherwise I would have done so. Sorry for the extra work. I must admit to being very surprised about the result however - though I must admit that I was perhaps biased by having a lot of Irish relations.
Grutness...wha?13:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The criteria for a speedy are tightly defined (yet still very often abused). I make no apologies for challenging it before this data was produced, and the messy Scottish situation (in the only other country to use "Loch/lough" much) is probably itself enough to trigger this bit of the speedy verbiage: "This criterion should be applied only when there is no ambiguity or doubt over the existence of a category naming convention. Such a convention must be well defined and must be overwhelmingly used within the tree. If this is not the case then the category in question must be brought forward to a full Cfd nomination." So here we are. It is obviously for nominators to do the "homework" and make their case. CfD has always been largely defined by people "running off hunches" in any case.
Johnbod (
talk)
01:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I am neutral on this, an issue that should be sorted out by Irish WPans. However, as a general principle, it is not necessary for every subcat to conform to its parent: local useage is welcome, indeed encouraged. My recollection is that maps in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) commonly use the Irish Lough, rather than English lake, so that I tend to lean towards Keep.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support based on the data provided by nominator and (so far) no convincing arguments given against these data. It goes without saying that I do not have any knowledge about the topic, at times that is an advantage.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:52, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support I think it boils down to what Irish English uses per
WP:ENGVAR. It appears that Irish English (from the government of the Republic) usage favors Lakes over Loughs. That result dovetailing well with the rest of the tree's nomenclature is just gravy.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support Looking at
Category:Lakes by country,
Category:Loughs of the Republic of Ireland is the only member not named "Lakes of X". I don't see sufficient reason for Ireland to be such a single exception. To me "Loughs" is an unnatural, if well-intentioned, construct. While a named lake is very often called by its Lough name (in speech and writing), e.g. Lough Corrib, lakes in a general plural or indirect sense are referred to as "lakes". Except in a named list, e.g. Loughs Corrib and Mask. E.g. "the Cavan landscape features a large number of small, glacial lakes". Or "if one also excludes the lakes from the Shannon's freshwater flow". I've worked on a few of the Ireland lake articles and always cringed a little when adding one of the above county categories! For what it's worth, Commons uses "Lakes of" categories for Ireland. I'd also suggest moving the article
List of loughs of Ireland to
List of lakes of Ireland. That talk page briefly proposed this a while back. Thanks
Declangi (
talk)
02:38, 12 April 2018 (UTC)reply
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talk page or in a
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Category:United States private paramilitary groups
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Nominator's rationale: In line with similar categories - and giving a wider scope. Use of the word "private" isnt very illuminating in this context.
Rathfelder (
talk)
13:45, 7 April 2018 (UTC)reply
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Category:Proto-facsists
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Category:Association for Research and Enlightenment
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Merge. I did a search and only found one other person with a connection to Forest Hills with a WP article, so
WP:SMALLCAT it is. I also think I found the most popular name for cemeteries in the US!
Grutness...wha?03:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Lakes of the Republic of Ireland
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
As in Northern Ireland, most inland bodies of water in the Republic of Ireland are known as "Lough Foo". Same in Scotland, though the Scots use the Scots gaelic spelling "Loch".
However, while most Irish inland bodies of water are individually called "Lough Foo" in English, they are collectively referred to in English as "lakes".
See the following searches in
reliable sources for Lakes/Loughs in Ireland:
I also wonder whether those sources for English language usage of the terms lake and lough reflected global usage, rather than local usage. I suspect that most hits from .ie sites would be for "loughs". If so, Loughs should be used.
Grutness...wha?02:50, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Reply@
Grutness: I think it is the inverse of what you suggest. I have never encountered Irish usage describing them collectively as "loughs"; always "lakes". I think the collective use of "loughs" is non-Irish writers making a well-intended but mistaken attempt to use what they wrongly believe to be Irish terminology. I will try if I can devise some searches to verify (or disprove) my hunch. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
04:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
More data. Usage on Irish websites strongly prefers "lakes":
I originally nominated these cats as a speedy, but that was objected to
[1] by @
Johnbod, so I spent the best part of an hour compiling the first set of data. Now I have spent another half hour compiling another set of data in response to @
Grutness.
I know that both editors mean well ... but please can anyone else who wants to weigh in against this actually do their own homework, rather than running off hunches? This simple renaming has taken a wholly disproportionate amount of my time
--
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
06:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I tried, but for some reason google wasn't giving me page counts for .ie only sites, otherwise I would have done so. Sorry for the extra work. I must admit to being very surprised about the result however - though I must admit that I was perhaps biased by having a lot of Irish relations.
Grutness...wha?13:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The criteria for a speedy are tightly defined (yet still very often abused). I make no apologies for challenging it before this data was produced, and the messy Scottish situation (in the only other country to use "Loch/lough" much) is probably itself enough to trigger this bit of the speedy verbiage: "This criterion should be applied only when there is no ambiguity or doubt over the existence of a category naming convention. Such a convention must be well defined and must be overwhelmingly used within the tree. If this is not the case then the category in question must be brought forward to a full Cfd nomination." So here we are. It is obviously for nominators to do the "homework" and make their case. CfD has always been largely defined by people "running off hunches" in any case.
Johnbod (
talk)
01:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I am neutral on this, an issue that should be sorted out by Irish WPans. However, as a general principle, it is not necessary for every subcat to conform to its parent: local useage is welcome, indeed encouraged. My recollection is that maps in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) commonly use the Irish Lough, rather than English lake, so that I tend to lean towards Keep.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
17:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support based on the data provided by nominator and (so far) no convincing arguments given against these data. It goes without saying that I do not have any knowledge about the topic, at times that is an advantage.
Marcocapelle (
talk)
18:52, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support I think it boils down to what Irish English uses per
WP:ENGVAR. It appears that Irish English (from the government of the Republic) usage favors Lakes over Loughs. That result dovetailing well with the rest of the tree's nomenclature is just gravy.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
19:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Support Looking at
Category:Lakes by country,
Category:Loughs of the Republic of Ireland is the only member not named "Lakes of X". I don't see sufficient reason for Ireland to be such a single exception. To me "Loughs" is an unnatural, if well-intentioned, construct. While a named lake is very often called by its Lough name (in speech and writing), e.g. Lough Corrib, lakes in a general plural or indirect sense are referred to as "lakes". Except in a named list, e.g. Loughs Corrib and Mask. E.g. "the Cavan landscape features a large number of small, glacial lakes". Or "if one also excludes the lakes from the Shannon's freshwater flow". I've worked on a few of the Ireland lake articles and always cringed a little when adding one of the above county categories! For what it's worth, Commons uses "Lakes of" categories for Ireland. I'd also suggest moving the article
List of loughs of Ireland to
List of lakes of Ireland. That talk page briefly proposed this a while back. Thanks
Declangi (
talk)
02:38, 12 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:United States private paramilitary groups
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: In line with similar categories - and giving a wider scope. Use of the word "private" isnt very illuminating in this context.
Rathfelder (
talk)
13:45, 7 April 2018 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Proto-facsists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Category:Association for Research and Enlightenment
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.