The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: I don't see why these are distinguished. Why is it important to separate these? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In the same manner as we distinguish those within
Category:Living people from those who are not, we devote specific attention to current biographies with the three categories —
Category:Year of birth missing (living people),
Category:Date of birth missing (living people) and
Category:Place of birth missing (living people) in order to clearly identify present-day individuals from those who belong to the ages — whether recent past or antiquity — thus enabling Wikipedians who wish to devote their time to researching such details, to have a clear distinction in their choice of focusing on the living or on the dead. There was no consensus when these three categories were initially nominated ten years ago. The arguments presented at those discussions may be consulted
here.
—Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs) 02:43, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Roman Spinner: How would my research on this topic be any different if a given person died yesterday than tomorrow? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Koavf: In the event that you or other Wikipedians may have privacy concerns as these relate to barely notable living subjects of Wikipedia articles and may wish to concentrate your area of research in that direction, the above three categories enable you to separate the living from the entire span of history previous to our lives. As those around us, whether old or young, depart, the categories defining them also change. As was pointed out in the discussion ten years ago, "Upon the death of an individual, the change from
Category:Living people to
Category:2007 deaths is accompanied by the replacement of
Category:Date of birth missing (living people) with
Category:Date of birth missing. This nominated category is a subcategory solely of
Category:Date of birth missing and, despite their close relationship, is not a subcategory of
Category:Living people. Prior to the existence of this
Category:Date of birth missing (living people), editors grouped individuals from past centuries and even ancients from past millenia, all of whom clearly belonged in either
Category:Date of birth unknown (year indicated, but month and day historically unrecorded) or, in most cases, in
Category:Year of birth unknown, used with people whose data has been lost to history. The "(living people)" addition thus provides a differentiation guide for editors who are creating entries for contemporaries".
—Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs) 05:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is for BLP articles.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Prehaps this is the wrong forum. As category talkpages get few hits, maybe close this and start a RfC to see if there's a chance of it being deleted or merged. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 09:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
This is the only forum for merging or deleting categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep often with living people we need to consider weather the issues of privacy and notability justify publicizing their place of birth. Once someone is dead, there is less of a privacy argument against publicizing their place of birth.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Year of birth missing (living people)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: I don't see why these are distinguished. Why is it important to separate these? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose The reason is that for Living people often we do not want not have the year of birth online for data privacy. So we tnd more easily to jsut remove the category instead of adding the year of birth. On the other hand the Year of birth missing for dead people could be replaced by categories like 20th-century births or 1950s births. Still not many people do it but this is the correct procedure IMO. --
Magioladitis (
talk) 21:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Living people fall under
WP:BLP, so it makes sense to keep a separate tally of these articles.
bd2412T 23:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Oppose This is for BLP articles.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Prehaps this is the wrong forum. As category talkpages get few hits, maybe close this and start a RfC to see if there's a chance of it being deleted or merged. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 09:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Many people are senstive about their age being revealed, and some have even sued to prevent it becoming public knowledge. Once they die these issues do not come up.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:03, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Question: while I understand the difference, I wonder whether we actually need this living people category. With living people, if they are in this category, there is not much we can do anyway, right?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep. Given that these are tracking categories not article categories, and that both this and the parent category are huge, I don't see the problem with keeping them separate. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 19:06, 15 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs mastered by Shadab Rayeen
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Doesn't fit with existing cat scheme of artists/producers, and doesn't seem likely to attract any more members. —
swpbT 16:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Creator's rationale: Shadab Rayeen is a mixing and mastering engineer, mixes and masters a major junk of
Bollywood music after Eric Pillai, Category will is likely to attract many users in future AnoptimistixLet's Talk 02:01, 29 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:20, 12 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Delete unclear that this is a defining category for the song in question.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:History of Roman Catholicism by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Procedural comments: I took the liberty to merge the six separate nominations. The categories still need to be tagged though.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:43, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support most but England, Scotland and UK should not be merged as Anglo-Catholicism exists separately from Roman Catholicism, but this need not affect the naming of parents.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge per the general decision that Roman Catholicism is too specific and going against the ideas of common name.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
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The result of the discussion was:rename as nominated. The suggested use of "Dutch Carribean" should be done in a batch nomination.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. The Dutch West Indies is more of an historical entity whereas the category caters for the current situation. The present extent of the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands is much narrower than the Dutch West Indies at their historic maximum extent which included mainland South America.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Agree with Laurel Lodged on the Caribbean issue. In fact that entire category tree may be shortened from Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands to Dutch Caribbean per
Dutch Caribbean but that's going to be for another nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Catholic Church in the Dutch Carribean. There is no reason that articles exclusively about Catholicism in areas that were then under Dutch control but no longer are should be excluded from this category. Anyway, Dutch Carribean is the shortest, most succienct way to refer to the area.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:09, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in Curaçao
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The result of the discussion was:merge.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in Aruba
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church Councils by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic schools by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Years and decades in the Abbasid Caliphate
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The result of the discussion was:merge and delete as nominated.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: upmerge per
WP:SMALLCAT, most of the year categories consists of only one article and even many decades categories are poorly populated. There is no need for a second merge target, all articles are already in a Year or Decade in Asia category as well (or Europe or Africa, each in one instance).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:17, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support -- I doubt the 8th century category will end off with more than a dozen articles and a few subcats: that is not too much for a category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support Small categories with little scope for expansion.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mormon Tabernacle Choir songs
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The result of the discussion was:delete.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: we categorize songs only by the original singer, which is not the case here.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete almost none of these songs were originally sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Many do not even mention the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the articles on them. A few the Choir has sung so often and in such prominent places, that there is some level of deep cultural connection, but most it just amounts to 1 or two recordings and a few times out of literally thousands of performances, with many of these songs being sung just as often by other notable choirs, and many predating the formation of the choir itself.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of
Amazing Grace it mentions in the article that the Library of Congress has a collection of over 3,000 recordings of the song, and mentions recordings by many other people, but I see no mention in the article of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment The recordings section on "Away in a Manager" lists 11 recordsings (which I am sure is no where near the number of commercially distrubuted recordings done of this christmas carol), none of them by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella the first listing of a recording by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is listing #25 of the recordsings. This for a song that was first translated to English in the 18th-century. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir was not even formed until the mid-19th century.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of
Winter Wonderland it is currently in 14 song by performer categories. I have my doubts that any are good fits. We may need to look at some of the other songs by performer categories as well.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:50, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. To be fair, it doesn't necessarily have to be the original singer to justify inclusion in an "Artist songs" category — but the artist does have to have some kind of
defining relationship to the song beyond merely having recorded or performed it at all. (Just as an example, "
Nothing Compares 2 U" is much more famously associated with Sinéad O'Connor, who actually made it a worldwide smash hit, than it is with The Family, who originally recorded it. So its definers are Sinéad and Prince, not The Family.) But that really isn't the case for most of the songs here. I'd grant them the specifically LDS hymns — to the extent that those are known outside the LDS church, it's almost entirely down to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir — but those are already catted as
Category:Latter Day Saint music anyway and thus don't really need this. But they definitely don't have a defining relationship to "Winter Wonderland" or "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" or "I Saw Three Ships" or "Morning Has Broken".
Bearcat (
talk) 04:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: I don't see why these are distinguished. Why is it important to separate these? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. In the same manner as we distinguish those within
Category:Living people from those who are not, we devote specific attention to current biographies with the three categories —
Category:Year of birth missing (living people),
Category:Date of birth missing (living people) and
Category:Place of birth missing (living people) in order to clearly identify present-day individuals from those who belong to the ages — whether recent past or antiquity — thus enabling Wikipedians who wish to devote their time to researching such details, to have a clear distinction in their choice of focusing on the living or on the dead. There was no consensus when these three categories were initially nominated ten years ago. The arguments presented at those discussions may be consulted
here.
—Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs) 02:43, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Roman Spinner: How would my research on this topic be any different if a given person died yesterday than tomorrow? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Koavf: In the event that you or other Wikipedians may have privacy concerns as these relate to barely notable living subjects of Wikipedia articles and may wish to concentrate your area of research in that direction, the above three categories enable you to separate the living from the entire span of history previous to our lives. As those around us, whether old or young, depart, the categories defining them also change. As was pointed out in the discussion ten years ago, "Upon the death of an individual, the change from
Category:Living people to
Category:2007 deaths is accompanied by the replacement of
Category:Date of birth missing (living people) with
Category:Date of birth missing. This nominated category is a subcategory solely of
Category:Date of birth missing and, despite their close relationship, is not a subcategory of
Category:Living people. Prior to the existence of this
Category:Date of birth missing (living people), editors grouped individuals from past centuries and even ancients from past millenia, all of whom clearly belonged in either
Category:Date of birth unknown (year indicated, but month and day historically unrecorded) or, in most cases, in
Category:Year of birth unknown, used with people whose data has been lost to history. The "(living people)" addition thus provides a differentiation guide for editors who are creating entries for contemporaries".
—Roman Spinner(talk)(contribs) 05:13, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose This is for BLP articles.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Prehaps this is the wrong forum. As category talkpages get few hits, maybe close this and start a RfC to see if there's a chance of it being deleted or merged. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 09:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
This is the only forum for merging or deleting categories.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 20:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep often with living people we need to consider weather the issues of privacy and notability justify publicizing their place of birth. Once someone is dead, there is less of a privacy argument against publicizing their place of birth.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Year of birth missing (living people)
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Nominator's rationale: I don't see why these are distinguished. Why is it important to separate these? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 21:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose The reason is that for Living people often we do not want not have the year of birth online for data privacy. So we tnd more easily to jsut remove the category instead of adding the year of birth. On the other hand the Year of birth missing for dead people could be replaced by categories like 20th-century births or 1950s births. Still not many people do it but this is the correct procedure IMO. --
Magioladitis (
talk) 21:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Living people fall under
WP:BLP, so it makes sense to keep a separate tally of these articles.
bd2412T 23:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Oppose This is for BLP articles.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Prehaps this is the wrong forum. As category talkpages get few hits, maybe close this and start a RfC to see if there's a chance of it being deleted or merged. LugnutsFire Walk with Me 09:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep Many people are senstive about their age being revealed, and some have even sued to prevent it becoming public knowledge. Once they die these issues do not come up.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:03, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Question: while I understand the difference, I wonder whether we actually need this living people category. With living people, if they are in this category, there is not much we can do anyway, right?
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Keep. Given that these are tracking categories not article categories, and that both this and the parent category are huge, I don't see the problem with keeping them separate. —
David Eppstein (
talk) 19:06, 15 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Songs mastered by Shadab Rayeen
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Nominator's rationale: Doesn't fit with existing cat scheme of artists/producers, and doesn't seem likely to attract any more members. —
swpbT 16:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Creator's rationale: Shadab Rayeen is a mixing and mastering engineer, mixes and masters a major junk of
Bollywood music after Eric Pillai, Category will is likely to attract many users in future AnoptimistixLet's Talk 02:01, 29 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:20, 12 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Delete unclear that this is a defining category for the song in question.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:History of Roman Catholicism by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Procedural comments: I took the liberty to merge the six separate nominations. The categories still need to be tagged though.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 11:43, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support most but England, Scotland and UK should not be merged as Anglo-Catholicism exists separately from Roman Catholicism, but this need not affect the naming of parents.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Merge per the general decision that Roman Catholicism is too specific and going against the ideas of common name.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
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The result of the discussion was:rename as nominated. The suggested use of "Dutch Carribean" should be done in a batch nomination.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. The Dutch West Indies is more of an historical entity whereas the category caters for the current situation. The present extent of the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands is much narrower than the Dutch West Indies at their historic maximum extent which included mainland South America.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 20:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Agree with Laurel Lodged on the Caribbean issue. In fact that entire category tree may be shortened from Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands to Dutch Caribbean per
Dutch Caribbean but that's going to be for another nomination.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 06:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Catholic Church in the Dutch Carribean. There is no reason that articles exclusively about Catholicism in areas that were then under Dutch control but no longer are should be excluded from this category. Anyway, Dutch Carribean is the shortest, most succienct way to refer to the area.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:09, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in Curaçao
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The result of the discussion was:merge.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church in Aruba
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic universities and colleges by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church Councils by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic schools by country
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Roman Catholic Church sex abuse cases by country
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:rename.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
talk page or in a
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Years and decades in the Abbasid Caliphate
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:merge and delete as nominated.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: upmerge per
WP:SMALLCAT, most of the year categories consists of only one article and even many decades categories are poorly populated. There is no need for a second merge target, all articles are already in a Year or Decade in Asia category as well (or Europe or Africa, each in one instance).
Marcocapelle (
talk) 08:17, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support -- I doubt the 8th century category will end off with more than a dozen articles and a few subcats: that is not too much for a category.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 17:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Support Small categories with little scope for expansion.
Dimadick (
talk) 05:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mormon Tabernacle Choir songs
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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The result of the discussion was:delete.
ℯxplicit 04:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: we categorize songs only by the original singer, which is not the case here.
Marcocapelle (
talk) 07:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete almost none of these songs were originally sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Many do not even mention the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the articles on them. A few the Choir has sung so often and in such prominent places, that there is some level of deep cultural connection, but most it just amounts to 1 or two recordings and a few times out of literally thousands of performances, with many of these songs being sung just as often by other notable choirs, and many predating the formation of the choir itself.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:16, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of
Amazing Grace it mentions in the article that the Library of Congress has a collection of over 3,000 recordings of the song, and mentions recordings by many other people, but I see no mention in the article of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment The recordings section on "Away in a Manager" lists 11 recordsings (which I am sure is no where near the number of commercially distrubuted recordings done of this christmas carol), none of them by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella the first listing of a recording by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is listing #25 of the recordsings. This for a song that was first translated to English in the 18th-century. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir was not even formed until the mid-19th century.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment In the case of
Winter Wonderland it is currently in 14 song by performer categories. I have my doubts that any are good fits. We may need to look at some of the other songs by performer categories as well.
John Pack Lambert (
talk) 05:50, 14 August 2017 (UTC)reply
Delete. To be fair, it doesn't necessarily have to be the original singer to justify inclusion in an "Artist songs" category — but the artist does have to have some kind of
defining relationship to the song beyond merely having recorded or performed it at all. (Just as an example, "
Nothing Compares 2 U" is much more famously associated with Sinéad O'Connor, who actually made it a worldwide smash hit, than it is with The Family, who originally recorded it. So its definers are Sinéad and Prince, not The Family.) But that really isn't the case for most of the songs here. I'd grant them the specifically LDS hymns — to the extent that those are known outside the LDS church, it's almost entirely down to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir — but those are already catted as
Category:Latter Day Saint music anyway and thus don't really need this. But they definitely don't have a defining relationship to "Winter Wonderland" or "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" or "I Saw Three Ships" or "Morning Has Broken".
Bearcat (
talk) 04:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)reply
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