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Nominator's rationale:Delete. We recently deleted ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Shareholders of Yahoo!here. So now we get "Major shareholders of Yahoo!", presumably to solve the problem of a shareholders category being potentially enormous. Unfortunately, this creates another problem: how do we define "major"? Another issue that remains is that holding shares in a particular company just isn't that defining for any individual or company.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete for the reasons given in the last nomination and this. "Major" is a problem word, and owning shares in a company isn't defining. If someone wants to note in
Yahoo! that X or Y owns Z% of the shares, probably fine; similarly if they want to note in the article about X that it owns Z% of Yahoo shares, probably fine; but it's not the stuff from which categories are made.
BencherliteTalk23:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Comment I think in the US "Major" does have an exact definition: it's the point at which they need to be reported to the SEC for public companies. I think that would be appropriate article content but I'm not sure of the need for a category. The relationship between different notable businesses is relevant encyclopedic content in general, and we normally do include it in articles. DGG (
talk )
03:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
I think the SEC does have some definitions for "major shareholder" in law and regulations, but my understanding is that that definition varies depending on the particular situation. It might be 15% for some purposes and only 3% for others, with some standards in between.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete as ephemera. Buying and selling large blocks of stock is done constantly; let people keep track of this through the WSJ or SEC filings.
Mangoe (
talk)
11:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete being a major shareholding in anything is not ever defining. This is especially true because there is no non-arbitrary definition of "major" in this case. Also, expecially because as a category once achieved it always applies, this will lead to some wealthy individuals potentially belonging in hundreds of such categories. If this works for Yahoo it can work for lots and lots of companies. Does that road lies madness.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete. Too many definitional problems, and it's unlikely that this is a defining characteristic of most of the shareholders. As JPL points out, adopting this type of category could cause massive category clutter. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Forrest's Expeditions
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'Forrest's Expedition into West Tennessee' and 'Forrest's Expedition into West Tennessee and Kentucky' are the names used by (see
here) the Civil War Sites Advisory Commission of the
American Battlefield Protection Program.
If there is no consensus, then the first category should be renamed to remove the extra 'the'. "Forrest's" refers to Nathan Bedford Forrest and needn't be preceded by the definite article. -- Black Falcon(
talk)20:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Battles of the Operations in North Alabama of the American Civil War
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The result of the discussion was:delete. Although the !votes wound up even, deletion is preferred by the nominator, and two of the three !votes for renaming are
WP:JUSTAVOTEs by IPs. "Per nom" is a perfectly valid rationaile (heck, I do it a lot), but the overall consensus here, including that of the nom in the end, favors deletion.
The BushrangerOne ping only23:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: A
set category might be useful if there existed categories about other aspects of the Mobile Campaign. There do not, however, and so this category should be made a
topic category. The proposed change not only shortens the title considerably, but also makes it a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
I understand your meaning, but it's not quite "per nom". Having had an opportunity to look more closely at the American Civil War campaigns category tree, I favor deletion over renaming. -- Black Falcon(
talk)22:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Battles of the Mobile Campaign of the American Civil War
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Nominator's rationale: A
set category might be useful if there existed categories about other aspects of the Mobile Campaign. There do not, however, and so this category should be made a
topic category. The proposed change not only shortens the title considerably, but also makes it a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
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Category:Battles of the Goldsboro Expedition of the American Civil War
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Nominator's rationale:Set categories might be useful if categories about other aspects of the Goldsboro Expedition and Meridian and Yazoo River Expeditions existed. There do not, however, and so these categories should be converted into
topic categories. The proposed changes not only shorten the titles considerably but also make them a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
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Delete per precedent that we don't do "Albums produced by X" unless X has an article. There is also precedent that we don't do "Albums produced by X" unless X has multiple solo production credits — and these all appear to be hip hop albums, a genre notorious for having 50 producers per album. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)20:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete Even if the articles existed, it would be wrong to categorize most of these albums as "produced by X" when X was responsible for a single track.
Pichpich (
talk)
14:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Theaters of the American Civil War
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Category:Short-rate model
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Category:Streisand Effect
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Defined as "instances where censorship has resulted in the
Streisand Effect being invoked." This is much to subjective a call to be a category. What level of attention has to be drawn to the subject matter by the attempted censorship? What qualifies as "attempted censorship"? It's just too squishy a concept and too much of a judgment call in each case. It looks to me like someone has taken the
list of examples in
Streisand effect and applied it to everything linked in the section.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete (Listify of wanted and referenced). That said, I could see this category name (not current inclusion criteria) might be useful for articles directly related to the
Streisand Effect, rather than (as it does now) include anything subjectively thought to have had such an effect. - jc3709:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep - I'm not sure it (the concept) is necessarily subjective. We can define censorship, either through courts or otherwise - and we can define something that has gone viral, or achieved notoriety (in much the same way we can define music as "popular"). Streisand Effect is the consequence of one as an action of the other, and therefore relatively easy to define and thus, categorize. --
Stuart Steedman (
talk)
11:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
You make a good point, but to be fair, there are reams of Categories that do go on to list specific instances:
Category:Vandalized_works_of_art for instance. Perhaps then suggest a rename of the Category to imply this, such as, "Streisand Effect Victims" (maybe Victims is a bit POV but you catch my drift) --
Stuart Steedman (
talk)
12:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Such a category would likely be listified due to the concerns others note above. Due to technical limitations, categories can't show references for each member of the category. But lists can. Does each potential member of this new category you're suggesting have such references showing how this is something
defining for each of them? - jc3712:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
If referenced, I think it has a better chance in that format. Though note that a list already exists as part of the article:
Streisand_effect#Examples. So you might want to consider expanding and further referencing there, before considering creating a separate list page (per
WP:SS). You may also find
WP:LIST helpful. - jc3712:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep Most delete !votes are basing their argument on the subjectivity of the category. But many things are subjective yet are perfectly acceptable. Even labeling a person as a criminal is subjective (it is merely the opinion of a jury/court) but we don't disallow it on WP because we generally accept a court's subjective opinion to be authorotative. Similarly when mainstream media (Reliable Sources) have invoked the Streisand Effect when discussing the subject/event I see no reason to reject labelling an article with this category.
Roger (
talk)
20:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Well, when someone is convicted in court, that "subjective" determination is given the force of the law of the government jurisdiction, so it becomes relatively hardened and much more difficult to criticise as a subjective opinion. This is far from the case with this particular issue. Besides, as pointed out, this is categorizing things that have been allegedly subject to the Streishand effect, whereas the category is named as if it will contain articles related to the effect itself.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ethology projects
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Israeli people of FOOian origin
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. In a
2012 MAY 14 CFD, there was consensus to use "Israeli people of FOOian descent" rather than "Israeli people of FOOian origin". This would conform the Israeli categories to those for all other nationalities and would reverse a
2010 JUL 19 CFD. Many of the target categories are presently category redirects.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:01, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename – per everything else in
Category:People of British descent say. (IMO, the rationale for the rename in 2010, "The word "descent" denotes ethnicity" is not the case: descent denotes previous citizenship and there is no implication of ethnicity.)
Oculi (
talk)
09:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename all per my rationale in the CfD from two weeks ago. The original move to "origin" was a mistake that should be corrected.
Pichpich (
talk)
11:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename descent has been used to denote location of ancestors. I would point out we currently have some cases of "Pakistani descent" with people whose ancestors never lived in Pakistan. The fact of the matter is that many people in the US in "American of x descent" cats would not belong through strict ethnic categories. Of course, how long do your ancestors have to have lived in Mexico or Argentina to qualify as ethnically of those places? On the other hand with the tracing of Judaism through the mother, how many Jews coming from Germany to Istrael had non-Jewish German ancestors?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:34, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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LGBT musicians
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Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination, as this is a slightly different situation than some of the other recent LGBT occupational splits. Due to the sheer size and scope of the unified category, which would contain over 1,000 articles if fully populated (unlike some of the others which have less than 100 in total), musicians are one of the few occupations for which
Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBThas historically supported splitting them into distinct categories for each quadrant of the community, on size management grounds, rather than keeping everybody directly filed in a single "LGBT musicians" category. However, what happened some time ago is that ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:Gay musicians got nominated for CFD and deleted in isolation, with the L, B and T categories remaining in place — and more recently, another user recreated it. (Note also for the record that it has not been fully repopulated yet, so don't judge it on size alone as its current size is still only a fraction of its ultimate size.)
Again, I personally favour the keep option, but they must be considered and treated as a group, and not as individual cases with opposing precedents.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep I think they are perfectly relevant classifications. I agree with the above statements also that it should be all four kept or all four deleted. The reason I recreated gay musicians was i found it rather strange to have the other three but not it.
RafikiSykes (
talk)
01:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
About ten thousand things, including who the musician's fan base is or isn't going to be (frex, how an openly gay country singer is going to lose some of the "traditionalist" base of country music fans, etc.), how they're going to be perceived as fitting into the marketplace, and on and so forth.
Bearcat (
talk)
02:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete per —
User:Koavf. Sexual orientation (or whatever the PC term is this week) should only be used to categorise people when it is specifically relevant. Being gay or whatever has no bearing on also being a singer, guitarist, pianist, etc. The intersection between sexual identity and occupation is not useful in this case. I can only think of very few cases where sexual orientation or gender identity is relevant to a person's occupation. If these cats are allowed to exist then categories for "heterosexual <insert any occupation>" must also be created.
Roger (
talk)
09:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep Entertainment, especially popular entertainment, is one of the fields where sexuality is often perceived as relevant. People are interested in it, and its not just voyeurism. That this is of encyclopedic relevance is shown by the many discussions over article content bearing on this. DGG (
talk )
04:08, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. We recently deleted ‹The
templateCat is being
considered for merging.›Category:Shareholders of Yahoo!here. So now we get "Major shareholders of Yahoo!", presumably to solve the problem of a shareholders category being potentially enormous. Unfortunately, this creates another problem: how do we define "major"? Another issue that remains is that holding shares in a particular company just isn't that defining for any individual or company.
Good Ol’factory(talk)23:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete for the reasons given in the last nomination and this. "Major" is a problem word, and owning shares in a company isn't defining. If someone wants to note in
Yahoo! that X or Y owns Z% of the shares, probably fine; similarly if they want to note in the article about X that it owns Z% of Yahoo shares, probably fine; but it's not the stuff from which categories are made.
BencherliteTalk23:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Comment I think in the US "Major" does have an exact definition: it's the point at which they need to be reported to the SEC for public companies. I think that would be appropriate article content but I'm not sure of the need for a category. The relationship between different notable businesses is relevant encyclopedic content in general, and we normally do include it in articles. DGG (
talk )
03:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
I think the SEC does have some definitions for "major shareholder" in law and regulations, but my understanding is that that definition varies depending on the particular situation. It might be 15% for some purposes and only 3% for others, with some standards in between.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete as ephemera. Buying and selling large blocks of stock is done constantly; let people keep track of this through the WSJ or SEC filings.
Mangoe (
talk)
11:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete being a major shareholding in anything is not ever defining. This is especially true because there is no non-arbitrary definition of "major" in this case. Also, expecially because as a category once achieved it always applies, this will lead to some wealthy individuals potentially belonging in hundreds of such categories. If this works for Yahoo it can work for lots and lots of companies. Does that road lies madness.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete. Too many definitional problems, and it's unlikely that this is a defining characteristic of most of the shareholders. As JPL points out, adopting this type of category could cause massive category clutter. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Forrest's Expeditions
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'Forrest's Expedition into West Tennessee' and 'Forrest's Expedition into West Tennessee and Kentucky' are the names used by (see
here) the Civil War Sites Advisory Commission of the
American Battlefield Protection Program.
If there is no consensus, then the first category should be renamed to remove the extra 'the'. "Forrest's" refers to Nathan Bedford Forrest and needn't be preceded by the definite article. -- Black Falcon(
talk)20:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Battles of the Operations in North Alabama of the American Civil War
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The result of the discussion was:delete. Although the !votes wound up even, deletion is preferred by the nominator, and two of the three !votes for renaming are
WP:JUSTAVOTEs by IPs. "Per nom" is a perfectly valid rationaile (heck, I do it a lot), but the overall consensus here, including that of the nom in the end, favors deletion.
The BushrangerOne ping only23:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: A
set category might be useful if there existed categories about other aspects of the Mobile Campaign. There do not, however, and so this category should be made a
topic category. The proposed change not only shortens the title considerably, but also makes it a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
I understand your meaning, but it's not quite "per nom". Having had an opportunity to look more closely at the American Civil War campaigns category tree, I favor deletion over renaming. -- Black Falcon(
talk)22:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Battles of the Mobile Campaign of the American Civil War
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Nominator's rationale: A
set category might be useful if there existed categories about other aspects of the Mobile Campaign. There do not, however, and so this category should be made a
topic category. The proposed change not only shortens the title considerably, but also makes it a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
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Category:Battles of the Goldsboro Expedition of the American Civil War
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Nominator's rationale:Set categories might be useful if categories about other aspects of the Goldsboro Expedition and Meridian and Yazoo River Expeditions existed. There do not, however, and so these categories should be converted into
topic categories. The proposed changes not only shorten the titles considerably but also make them a more natural fit within the structure of
Category:Campaigns of the American Civil War.
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Delete per precedent that we don't do "Albums produced by X" unless X has an article. There is also precedent that we don't do "Albums produced by X" unless X has multiple solo production credits — and these all appear to be hip hop albums, a genre notorious for having 50 producers per album. Ten Pound Hammer • (
What did I screw up now?)20:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete Even if the articles existed, it would be wrong to categorize most of these albums as "produced by X" when X was responsible for a single track.
Pichpich (
talk)
14:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Theaters of the American Civil War
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Category:Short-rate model
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Category:Streisand Effect
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Defined as "instances where censorship has resulted in the
Streisand Effect being invoked." This is much to subjective a call to be a category. What level of attention has to be drawn to the subject matter by the attempted censorship? What qualifies as "attempted censorship"? It's just too squishy a concept and too much of a judgment call in each case. It looks to me like someone has taken the
list of examples in
Streisand effect and applied it to everything linked in the section.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete (Listify of wanted and referenced). That said, I could see this category name (not current inclusion criteria) might be useful for articles directly related to the
Streisand Effect, rather than (as it does now) include anything subjectively thought to have had such an effect. - jc3709:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep - I'm not sure it (the concept) is necessarily subjective. We can define censorship, either through courts or otherwise - and we can define something that has gone viral, or achieved notoriety (in much the same way we can define music as "popular"). Streisand Effect is the consequence of one as an action of the other, and therefore relatively easy to define and thus, categorize. --
Stuart Steedman (
talk)
11:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
You make a good point, but to be fair, there are reams of Categories that do go on to list specific instances:
Category:Vandalized_works_of_art for instance. Perhaps then suggest a rename of the Category to imply this, such as, "Streisand Effect Victims" (maybe Victims is a bit POV but you catch my drift) --
Stuart Steedman (
talk)
12:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Such a category would likely be listified due to the concerns others note above. Due to technical limitations, categories can't show references for each member of the category. But lists can. Does each potential member of this new category you're suggesting have such references showing how this is something
defining for each of them? - jc3712:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
If referenced, I think it has a better chance in that format. Though note that a list already exists as part of the article:
Streisand_effect#Examples. So you might want to consider expanding and further referencing there, before considering creating a separate list page (per
WP:SS). You may also find
WP:LIST helpful. - jc3712:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep Most delete !votes are basing their argument on the subjectivity of the category. But many things are subjective yet are perfectly acceptable. Even labeling a person as a criminal is subjective (it is merely the opinion of a jury/court) but we don't disallow it on WP because we generally accept a court's subjective opinion to be authorotative. Similarly when mainstream media (Reliable Sources) have invoked the Streisand Effect when discussing the subject/event I see no reason to reject labelling an article with this category.
Roger (
talk)
20:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Well, when someone is convicted in court, that "subjective" determination is given the force of the law of the government jurisdiction, so it becomes relatively hardened and much more difficult to criticise as a subjective opinion. This is far from the case with this particular issue. Besides, as pointed out, this is categorizing things that have been allegedly subject to the Streishand effect, whereas the category is named as if it will contain articles related to the effect itself.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Ethology projects
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Israeli people of FOOian origin
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. In a
2012 MAY 14 CFD, there was consensus to use "Israeli people of FOOian descent" rather than "Israeli people of FOOian origin". This would conform the Israeli categories to those for all other nationalities and would reverse a
2010 JUL 19 CFD. Many of the target categories are presently category redirects.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:01, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename – per everything else in
Category:People of British descent say. (IMO, the rationale for the rename in 2010, "The word "descent" denotes ethnicity" is not the case: descent denotes previous citizenship and there is no implication of ethnicity.)
Oculi (
talk)
09:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename all per my rationale in the CfD from two weeks ago. The original move to "origin" was a mistake that should be corrected.
Pichpich (
talk)
11:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename descent has been used to denote location of ancestors. I would point out we currently have some cases of "Pakistani descent" with people whose ancestors never lived in Pakistan. The fact of the matter is that many people in the US in "American of x descent" cats would not belong through strict ethnic categories. Of course, how long do your ancestors have to have lived in Mexico or Argentina to qualify as ethnically of those places? On the other hand with the tracing of Judaism through the mother, how many Jews coming from Germany to Istrael had non-Jewish German ancestors?
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
16:34, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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LGBT musicians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination, as this is a slightly different situation than some of the other recent LGBT occupational splits. Due to the sheer size and scope of the unified category, which would contain over 1,000 articles if fully populated (unlike some of the others which have less than 100 in total), musicians are one of the few occupations for which
Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBThas historically supported splitting them into distinct categories for each quadrant of the community, on size management grounds, rather than keeping everybody directly filed in a single "LGBT musicians" category. However, what happened some time ago is that ‹The
templateCategory link is being
considered for merging.›Category:Gay musicians got nominated for CFD and deleted in isolation, with the L, B and T categories remaining in place — and more recently, another user recreated it. (Note also for the record that it has not been fully repopulated yet, so don't judge it on size alone as its current size is still only a fraction of its ultimate size.)
Again, I personally favour the keep option, but they must be considered and treated as a group, and not as individual cases with opposing precedents.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:50, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep I think they are perfectly relevant classifications. I agree with the above statements also that it should be all four kept or all four deleted. The reason I recreated gay musicians was i found it rather strange to have the other three but not it.
RafikiSykes (
talk)
01:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
About ten thousand things, including who the musician's fan base is or isn't going to be (frex, how an openly gay country singer is going to lose some of the "traditionalist" base of country music fans, etc.), how they're going to be perceived as fitting into the marketplace, and on and so forth.
Bearcat (
talk)
02:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete per —
User:Koavf. Sexual orientation (or whatever the PC term is this week) should only be used to categorise people when it is specifically relevant. Being gay or whatever has no bearing on also being a singer, guitarist, pianist, etc. The intersection between sexual identity and occupation is not useful in this case. I can only think of very few cases where sexual orientation or gender identity is relevant to a person's occupation. If these cats are allowed to exist then categories for "heterosexual <insert any occupation>" must also be created.
Roger (
talk)
09:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep Entertainment, especially popular entertainment, is one of the fields where sexuality is often perceived as relevant. People are interested in it, and its not just voyeurism. That this is of encyclopedic relevance is shown by the many discussions over article content bearing on this. DGG (
talk )
04:08, 24 May 2012 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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