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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Only contains three pages making it of little use, and the category name is inconsistent with respect to existing convention. --
Alan Liefting (
talk -
contribs)
21:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep The category has only recently been created and not many articles have been added yet, so presently isn't "doing" much. We are in the process of attempting to "diffuse" the main
Sociology category. Articles will be added to this hidden administrative category to help update pages such as:
Index_of_sociology_articles. Apologies if does not follow existing convention. If there is another, more accepted method to accomplish the same task, direction would be appreciated.
Meclee (
talk)
20:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Question I'm inclined to give you leeway if this is a work in progress so I've withdrawn my delete. What is the goal of this specific category though? What will be diffused into it?
RevelationDirect (
talk)
03:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:African Film Festival of Cordoba-FCAT
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Nominator's rationale: This category is being used to group all films that have ever been selected to the
African Film Festival of Cordoba - FCAT. A non-defining grouping, and filmic version, if you will, of
WP:OC#PERF. There are as yet no other articles related to this festival, founded in 2004, to justify an eponymous category. But no objection to the recreation of this category at some point in the future if we do have a significant number of articles or subcats about the festival, of course.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
21:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Would you agree to rename the category as "Films selected for screening at African Film Festival of Cordoba-FCAT" or something similar? --
M.casanova (
talk)
06:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I think you're mistaking a category for a list. We simply don't use categories in this way: it's not a sufficiently major honour. Now, that said, "listify" can be a perfectly valid option in cases such as this. You've gone to a lot of trouble to populate this category. Perhaps people would support converting it to a list...
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
07:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I created many of the articles. This category comes from a template (refFCAT), so I only have to change the template to remove the category from articles. --
M.casanova (
talk)
10:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oh. I'm not familiar with refFCAT, I'll have to look into that. At any rate, if you agree with my rationale, please consider removing the category yourself and nominating it for speedy deletion. But that's entirely up to you. Let me just add that I've been working a bit in the
Category:African cinema area and was very glad to see all the articles you'd added. There's been a bit of a burst in African cinema field of late, with
User:Renee Mar doing very good work as well, from the Portuguese-language point of view especially.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Children's television series
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Nominator's rationale:This CFD indicates that having children's categories is inappropriate for Wikipedia. While many shows in this category are aimed at kids, there are also adults that watch these shows too. I am also nominating the following categories for deletion renaming:
I don't think the takeaway from that discussion was that "children's" categories are never appropriate; it was that the categories were being added to a lot of videogames that weren't necessarily aimed mainly at a child audience, solely on the basis of "ages 10 and up" or other similar descriptions that really just mean "minimum recommended age" rather than "this is a game for kids" per se. At any rate, there really aren't very many notable video games that are specifically aimed at children; rather, there are just a fairly large number of games which are simple enough, and/or cutesy enough, and/or whatever else, that kids can play them. In the case of film, literature and music, however, there are distinct and genuinely encyclopedic fields of "children's entertainment" which are intended primarily for a kid audience; the fact that an adult might also enjoy them doesn't change the fact that adults are not the primary target audiences. Accordingly, categorization as "children's entertainment" is legitimate in these cases even if it's not necessary for video games. Keep.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Comment Children's movies are certainly marketed as "Family Movies". I'm not sure that adjective would be commonly understood with the other categories?
RevelationDirect (
talk)
23:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
keep current names and keep, per Bearcat. I think that these are appropriate and appropriately named. The fadish trend to using "family" instead of "children's" is probably a bit of a marketing ploy used to convince adults it's OK if they enjoy children's media as well, but I don't see the need to change the way WP refers to media that primarily targets children.
Good Ol’factory(talk)06:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
They're still inappropriately named for an encyclopedia. "Children's" makes it sound like that only children would enjoy them, which is not true. "Family" on the other hand, makes it sound like that everyone can enjoy them. I don't think these categories should be deleted; just renamed.
C3F2k (
Questions, comments, complaints?)
19:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I disagree. "Children's" describes the primary target demographic, not the expected pool of viewers who might enjoy it. "Family" is itself overly limiting—what about children who are orphans? This type of media is not aimed at orphans? Adults can enjoy whatever they like, but if I enjoy
Teletubbies, it doesn't change the fact that it would still be accurately described as a children's programme.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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LGBT Persons in Media by Nationality
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Per the
recent discussion about LGBT comedians by nationality, all of these categories should be upmerged for two reasons: A)
WP:CATGRS has a main principle of avoiding "ghettization", which these cats manage to do. B)
WP:OC#EGRS asserts that the categorization should not be created unless the group is recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. LGBT journalists is a notable topic (and therefore categorization), but LGBT television personalities from Spain are not uniquely different (other than language) from LGBT television personalities from Canada.
Per past discussion, I agree with SatyrTN that subcategorization by country is not warranted in these cases; the triple intersection of occupation, sexuality and nationality doesn't constitute a defining characteristic in its own right, and the parent categories are not large enough to necessitate invoking the "splitting a large category into subcategories" exception. That said, since the generic international "LGBT radio personalities" and "LGBT television personalities" cats somehow got deleted in the process of diffusing them by nationality, and since the "television personalities" category was always a weird and inconsistent and not really encyclopedic mix of broadcasters (talk show hosts, news reporters, etc.) and actors, I'd like to propose an alternate solution here: instead of simply reconstituting them in their original form, create a single new
Category:LGBT broadcasters, which would be inclusive of both radio and television personalities, and upmerge the appropriate articles (i.e. not the actors) into that merged category instead of recreating distinct radio and TV personality categories. Since many such people are not exclusively involved in one or the other, but in fact often act as both radio and TV personalities over the course of their careers, the distinction isn't that important and a lot of people would end up in both anyway.
So, to summarize: for journalists, upmerge per nom. For radio and television personalities, upmerge to a single
Category:LGBT broadcasters category which would include only people associated with non-fiction radio and television programming.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Old Tenisonians
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Split. This may be the cornerstone nomination of this series. I can't imagine even the most faithful members of the Old Boys Network expecting someone to know the difference between those schools. Then again, I've been wrong before.--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
14:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Support but the category for the Lambeth School and the article for that school need to be renamed to add the word Lambeth. The Lamnbeth school was founded in 1685 and the Croydon one in 1714; both are volunary aided. There is thus little reason to decide that the Lambeth school is primary - only 29 years in about 300.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Split and rename to
Category:Old Tenisonians (Croydon) and
Category:Old Tenisonians (Lambeth). These should be categories based on names rather than descriptions. The names are the correct collective terms for the groups of people in question, they are no more ambiguous than any name can be and need only disambiguation to be adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Split per nom, the fact that these two categories came to be one shows the fatal flaw of the "Old Fooians" form, it provides no easy way to check to make sure that the categories are not ambiguous.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Slightly less ambiguous Townian Old Fooians
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Nominator's rationale: Rename/split all, to a standardised descriptive format (see
WP:NDESC) which incorporates the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the categories to the non-specialist reader for whom Wikipedia is written, eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
This nomination covers categories with almost the same problems as I identified with the 13 categories in the
"More Townian Old Fooians" discussion at CFD 2012 February 29, but with one difference. Every category in the previous group referred to a "Foo School/College" where there was another school which used "Foo" in its title. That is not the case with most of these categories.
What they do have is another school in the same town, which could logically use the "Old Fooian" label for alumni, because some "Old Fooian" terms relate to a school which does not use "Foo" in its title: e.g.
Old Blackburnians,
Old Witleians and
Old Tamensians. So the reader cannot assume that these "Old Fooians" are alumni of "Foo School/College/Academy".
Here's a list of some of the other schools in these towns involved:
There is a fundamental problem with this whole type of collective name, as expressed most eloquently by
Moonraker (
talk·contribs) in another recent discussion: "
there are very few references anywhere to people educated at a particular school (including this one) as a group". That's exactly why these "Old Fooian" terms don't work well for category names: they are rarely used, and therefore unknown to the general readership for whom Wikipedia is written. However, even if editors accept the use of "Old Fooian" collective terms for other schools, these particular ones are unworkable examples of the format ... because apart froim the risk of confusion with other schools in the same area, they also use the
demonym for the town in which they are located. The use of such demonyms as category names for people from those towns is specifically deprecated in the
Categorization of people guideline. That issue was settled at CfD back in
July 2006 and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least
August 2006.
So a reader who encounters these categories will be confronted with a rarely-used term, which on further examination they may recognise as being for people from a town. Even if the reader leaps those two hurdles and recognises it as reference to alumni of a school, they still cannot reliably infer which school is involved. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are categories based on names rather than descriptions. The names are the correct collective terms for the groups of people in question, they are no more ambiguous than any name can be and are adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
BHG, your selective quotation (and repeated selective quotation, as if it were some Eureka moment and you've finally got him pinned down) of what Moonraker wrote is at best misleading.
Ericoides (
talk)
17:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
There is nothing selective about it: Moonraker succinctly nailed down the central reason for the useless of these terms as category names, and did so better than anyone else. Moonraker doesn't accept the logic of his observation, but there is nothing misleading about noting his agreement with the central reason why so many editors oppose the use of "Old Fooian" terminology for category name. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
OK, it seems that you misunderstand the importance of the word "collective" in what he is saying. By omitting this part of his analysis in your (selective) quotation, you misrepresent what he was arguing so that it appears that he is agreeing with your position.
Ericoides (
talk)
08:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
On the contrary, Ericoides, I understand Moonraker's argument quite fine, and I understand that it is a logical and mathematical nonsense.
Moonraker acknowledges that the use of a collective term for these alumni is almost non-existent, but because some fragment of that miniscule usage takes the "Old Fooian" form he reckons we should go with the "Old Fooian" term. The flaw in his argument is that even if the "Old Fooian" term is the most-commonly-used collective form, it has such tiny usage that it is unrecognisable to the reader.
The only reason for using the obscure inhouse jargon term "Old Eastbournians" is to teach the reader a new term, which is specifically deprecated by
WP:JARGON. The jargon is introduced in a hatnote in the category, so there is no loss of information by renaming the category. Renaming it to a descriptive format makes its purpose clear to everybody, so why are you and Moonraker so determined to require the reader to open the category to figure out what it contains? Why do you want to erect an obstacle course in the path of the reader? --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename the current category names are miscategorization waiting to happen. In fact for all I know some of the people in these categories do not belong there at all.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
09:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
They may be "correct" within the circles of the school and its alumni, but Wikipedia does not use "official names", it uses
common names and disambiguates where needed. These ambiguous names little or no common usage, and per
WP:NDESC a descriptive format is the way to disambigaute them. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
11:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
That may well be the case, but yew is the common name, and Taxus baccata is the scientific name. It would you who raised the point about common names.
Ericoides (
talk)
08:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I assumed that you had actually read
WP:COMMONNAME, either before you started opposing these renames or when I posted the link above, and that you were aware of the existence of
Yew (disambiguation).
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Category:Civilian Concentration Corps camps
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Category:Old Witleians
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The fact that the school's inhouse terminology for its alumni is "Old Witleans" is already included in a hatnote in the category, and also in the head article. Using it as the name of the category imparts no extra information to the reader, and makes the purpose of the category less apparent to readers and editors who are not already familiar with the school's culture. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
PPPS Ericoides is indeed talking nonsense yet again. For more details on the Google results below. Ericoides is unable or unwilling to distinguish between the usage in unreliable sources such as the school itself and wikipedia (and its mirrors), and usage in reliable sources whoich have a reach beyond the inhouse circles of the school and its alumni. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is another category based on a name rather than a description. The name is the correct collective term for the group of people in question and is adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category. The suggestion that anyone would see the category name and think it refers to "former or historical inhabitants of the village of
Witley" is as preposterous and far-fetched as ever.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Nice trick, Ericoides: proclaim a high number, regardless of what that number means. When you posted that number, you left an edit summary saying "
"more smoke and mirrors" ... and that's a very accurate description of what you produced.
However, the first page of results consists solely of unreliable sources: self-published material (by the school and its alumni association), and wikipedia (plus its many mirrors). That's why I used Google News and Google Books, which search only reliable sources.
So Old Etonian(s)" is widely used in reliable sources, but "Old Witleian(s)" is used only in unreliable sources.
The results "Old Witleian(s)" is a term used only in the circles of the school and its alumni, and has no wider currency. That';s why it is totally useless as a category name for a general readership ... and it's a a great pity that a small minority of "Oldd Fooian" editors are unable (or unwilling) to understand the distinctions between common usage and the inhouse terminology of a small group. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Domestic cricket competitions in the United States
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Category:Tram transport in Canada
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Question Are we sure what is common usage in Canada? On Google Canada Tram gets several times as many hits as either Canada Streetcar or Canada "Street Car". (Canada Street Car without the quotes gets more hits still be seems to include many off topic hits with cars on streets.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
23:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Rest of the World cricket tours
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Category:Science organizations by type of organization
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not sure what to do but this rename isn't the right answer Both the proposed name and the current do not represent the contents accurately. The contents actually are mostly facilities, not organizations, though there are some of those too; it is definitely not composed on articles on types of organizations either. Maybe this needs to be split/merged into facility and organization structures?
Mangoe (
talk)
20:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Peter Jackson and du Maurier Classic
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Category:Amusement rides with virtual queues
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Wikipedia is not a
travel guide. If the contained material is somehow encyclopedic, it could be listified. Also the main article on
virtual queues is not about this topic and only mentions it in passing. This is not defining for the associated rides. It is a convenience for park attendees.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
02:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete. It's not a defining characteristic of the ride, it may be a (nondefining) feature of the themepark and not specifically of the ride, it will be impossible to keep up-to-date as technology comes and goes from specific venues, and (as Vegaswikian says) the main article is currently about something else. --
Northernhenge (
talk)
16:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Only contains three pages making it of little use, and the category name is inconsistent with respect to existing convention. --
Alan Liefting (
talk -
contribs)
21:35, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Keep The category has only recently been created and not many articles have been added yet, so presently isn't "doing" much. We are in the process of attempting to "diffuse" the main
Sociology category. Articles will be added to this hidden administrative category to help update pages such as:
Index_of_sociology_articles. Apologies if does not follow existing convention. If there is another, more accepted method to accomplish the same task, direction would be appreciated.
Meclee (
talk)
20:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Question I'm inclined to give you leeway if this is a work in progress so I've withdrawn my delete. What is the goal of this specific category though? What will be diffused into it?
RevelationDirect (
talk)
03:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:African Film Festival of Cordoba-FCAT
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Nominator's rationale: This category is being used to group all films that have ever been selected to the
African Film Festival of Cordoba - FCAT. A non-defining grouping, and filmic version, if you will, of
WP:OC#PERF. There are as yet no other articles related to this festival, founded in 2004, to justify an eponymous category. But no objection to the recreation of this category at some point in the future if we do have a significant number of articles or subcats about the festival, of course.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
21:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Would you agree to rename the category as "Films selected for screening at African Film Festival of Cordoba-FCAT" or something similar? --
M.casanova (
talk)
06:15, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I think you're mistaking a category for a list. We simply don't use categories in this way: it's not a sufficiently major honour. Now, that said, "listify" can be a perfectly valid option in cases such as this. You've gone to a lot of trouble to populate this category. Perhaps people would support converting it to a list...
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
07:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I created many of the articles. This category comes from a template (refFCAT), so I only have to change the template to remove the category from articles. --
M.casanova (
talk)
10:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oh. I'm not familiar with refFCAT, I'll have to look into that. At any rate, if you agree with my rationale, please consider removing the category yourself and nominating it for speedy deletion. But that's entirely up to you. Let me just add that I've been working a bit in the
Category:African cinema area and was very glad to see all the articles you'd added. There's been a bit of a burst in African cinema field of late, with
User:Renee Mar doing very good work as well, from the Portuguese-language point of view especially.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Children's television series
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Nominator's rationale:This CFD indicates that having children's categories is inappropriate for Wikipedia. While many shows in this category are aimed at kids, there are also adults that watch these shows too. I am also nominating the following categories for deletion renaming:
I don't think the takeaway from that discussion was that "children's" categories are never appropriate; it was that the categories were being added to a lot of videogames that weren't necessarily aimed mainly at a child audience, solely on the basis of "ages 10 and up" or other similar descriptions that really just mean "minimum recommended age" rather than "this is a game for kids" per se. At any rate, there really aren't very many notable video games that are specifically aimed at children; rather, there are just a fairly large number of games which are simple enough, and/or cutesy enough, and/or whatever else, that kids can play them. In the case of film, literature and music, however, there are distinct and genuinely encyclopedic fields of "children's entertainment" which are intended primarily for a kid audience; the fact that an adult might also enjoy them doesn't change the fact that adults are not the primary target audiences. Accordingly, categorization as "children's entertainment" is legitimate in these cases even if it's not necessary for video games. Keep.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Comment Children's movies are certainly marketed as "Family Movies". I'm not sure that adjective would be commonly understood with the other categories?
RevelationDirect (
talk)
23:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
keep current names and keep, per Bearcat. I think that these are appropriate and appropriately named. The fadish trend to using "family" instead of "children's" is probably a bit of a marketing ploy used to convince adults it's OK if they enjoy children's media as well, but I don't see the need to change the way WP refers to media that primarily targets children.
Good Ol’factory(talk)06:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
They're still inappropriately named for an encyclopedia. "Children's" makes it sound like that only children would enjoy them, which is not true. "Family" on the other hand, makes it sound like that everyone can enjoy them. I don't think these categories should be deleted; just renamed.
C3F2k (
Questions, comments, complaints?)
19:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)reply
I disagree. "Children's" describes the primary target demographic, not the expected pool of viewers who might enjoy it. "Family" is itself overly limiting—what about children who are orphans? This type of media is not aimed at orphans? Adults can enjoy whatever they like, but if I enjoy
Teletubbies, it doesn't change the fact that it would still be accurately described as a children's programme.
Good Ol’factory(talk)21:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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LGBT Persons in Media by Nationality
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Per the
recent discussion about LGBT comedians by nationality, all of these categories should be upmerged for two reasons: A)
WP:CATGRS has a main principle of avoiding "ghettization", which these cats manage to do. B)
WP:OC#EGRS asserts that the categorization should not be created unless the group is recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. LGBT journalists is a notable topic (and therefore categorization), but LGBT television personalities from Spain are not uniquely different (other than language) from LGBT television personalities from Canada.
Per past discussion, I agree with SatyrTN that subcategorization by country is not warranted in these cases; the triple intersection of occupation, sexuality and nationality doesn't constitute a defining characteristic in its own right, and the parent categories are not large enough to necessitate invoking the "splitting a large category into subcategories" exception. That said, since the generic international "LGBT radio personalities" and "LGBT television personalities" cats somehow got deleted in the process of diffusing them by nationality, and since the "television personalities" category was always a weird and inconsistent and not really encyclopedic mix of broadcasters (talk show hosts, news reporters, etc.) and actors, I'd like to propose an alternate solution here: instead of simply reconstituting them in their original form, create a single new
Category:LGBT broadcasters, which would be inclusive of both radio and television personalities, and upmerge the appropriate articles (i.e. not the actors) into that merged category instead of recreating distinct radio and TV personality categories. Since many such people are not exclusively involved in one or the other, but in fact often act as both radio and TV personalities over the course of their careers, the distinction isn't that important and a lot of people would end up in both anyway.
So, to summarize: for journalists, upmerge per nom. For radio and television personalities, upmerge to a single
Category:LGBT broadcasters category which would include only people associated with non-fiction radio and television programming.
Bearcat (
talk)
22:12, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Old Tenisonians
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Split. This may be the cornerstone nomination of this series. I can't imagine even the most faithful members of the Old Boys Network expecting someone to know the difference between those schools. Then again, I've been wrong before.--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
14:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Support but the category for the Lambeth School and the article for that school need to be renamed to add the word Lambeth. The Lamnbeth school was founded in 1685 and the Croydon one in 1714; both are volunary aided. There is thus little reason to decide that the Lambeth school is primary - only 29 years in about 300.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
16:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Split and rename to
Category:Old Tenisonians (Croydon) and
Category:Old Tenisonians (Lambeth). These should be categories based on names rather than descriptions. The names are the correct collective terms for the groups of people in question, they are no more ambiguous than any name can be and need only disambiguation to be adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Split per nom, the fact that these two categories came to be one shows the fatal flaw of the "Old Fooians" form, it provides no easy way to check to make sure that the categories are not ambiguous.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
18:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Slightly less ambiguous Townian Old Fooians
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Nominator's rationale: Rename/split all, to a standardised descriptive format (see
WP:NDESC) which incorporates the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the categories to the non-specialist reader for whom Wikipedia is written, eliminating obscurity and ambiguity.
This nomination covers categories with almost the same problems as I identified with the 13 categories in the
"More Townian Old Fooians" discussion at CFD 2012 February 29, but with one difference. Every category in the previous group referred to a "Foo School/College" where there was another school which used "Foo" in its title. That is not the case with most of these categories.
What they do have is another school in the same town, which could logically use the "Old Fooian" label for alumni, because some "Old Fooian" terms relate to a school which does not use "Foo" in its title: e.g.
Old Blackburnians,
Old Witleians and
Old Tamensians. So the reader cannot assume that these "Old Fooians" are alumni of "Foo School/College/Academy".
Here's a list of some of the other schools in these towns involved:
There is a fundamental problem with this whole type of collective name, as expressed most eloquently by
Moonraker (
talk·contribs) in another recent discussion: "
there are very few references anywhere to people educated at a particular school (including this one) as a group". That's exactly why these "Old Fooian" terms don't work well for category names: they are rarely used, and therefore unknown to the general readership for whom Wikipedia is written. However, even if editors accept the use of "Old Fooian" collective terms for other schools, these particular ones are unworkable examples of the format ... because apart froim the risk of confusion with other schools in the same area, they also use the
demonym for the town in which they are located. The use of such demonyms as category names for people from those towns is specifically deprecated in the
Categorization of people guideline. That issue was settled at CfD back in
July 2006 and has been incorporated in the guideline since at least
August 2006.
So a reader who encounters these categories will be confronted with a rarely-used term, which on further examination they may recognise as being for people from a town. Even if the reader leaps those two hurdles and recognises it as reference to alumni of a school, they still cannot reliably infer which school is involved. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose. These are categories based on names rather than descriptions. The names are the correct collective terms for the groups of people in question, they are no more ambiguous than any name can be and are adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
BHG, your selective quotation (and repeated selective quotation, as if it were some Eureka moment and you've finally got him pinned down) of what Moonraker wrote is at best misleading.
Ericoides (
talk)
17:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
There is nothing selective about it: Moonraker succinctly nailed down the central reason for the useless of these terms as category names, and did so better than anyone else. Moonraker doesn't accept the logic of his observation, but there is nothing misleading about noting his agreement with the central reason why so many editors oppose the use of "Old Fooian" terminology for category name. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
OK, it seems that you misunderstand the importance of the word "collective" in what he is saying. By omitting this part of his analysis in your (selective) quotation, you misrepresent what he was arguing so that it appears that he is agreeing with your position.
Ericoides (
talk)
08:24, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
On the contrary, Ericoides, I understand Moonraker's argument quite fine, and I understand that it is a logical and mathematical nonsense.
Moonraker acknowledges that the use of a collective term for these alumni is almost non-existent, but because some fragment of that miniscule usage takes the "Old Fooian" form he reckons we should go with the "Old Fooian" term. The flaw in his argument is that even if the "Old Fooian" term is the most-commonly-used collective form, it has such tiny usage that it is unrecognisable to the reader.
The only reason for using the obscure inhouse jargon term "Old Eastbournians" is to teach the reader a new term, which is specifically deprecated by
WP:JARGON. The jargon is introduced in a hatnote in the category, so there is no loss of information by renaming the category. Renaming it to a descriptive format makes its purpose clear to everybody, so why are you and Moonraker so determined to require the reader to open the category to figure out what it contains? Why do you want to erect an obstacle course in the path of the reader? --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename the current category names are miscategorization waiting to happen. In fact for all I know some of the people in these categories do not belong there at all.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
09:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
They may be "correct" within the circles of the school and its alumni, but Wikipedia does not use "official names", it uses
common names and disambiguates where needed. These ambiguous names little or no common usage, and per
WP:NDESC a descriptive format is the way to disambigaute them. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
11:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)reply
That may well be the case, but yew is the common name, and Taxus baccata is the scientific name. It would you who raised the point about common names.
Ericoides (
talk)
08:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Sorry, I assumed that you had actually read
WP:COMMONNAME, either before you started opposing these renames or when I posted the link above, and that you were aware of the existence of
Yew (disambiguation).
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Category:Civilian Concentration Corps camps
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Category:Old Witleians
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The fact that the school's inhouse terminology for its alumni is "Old Witleans" is already included in a hatnote in the category, and also in the head article. Using it as the name of the category imparts no extra information to the reader, and makes the purpose of the category less apparent to readers and editors who are not already familiar with the school's culture. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
10:59, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
PPPS Ericoides is indeed talking nonsense yet again. For more details on the Google results below. Ericoides is unable or unwilling to distinguish between the usage in unreliable sources such as the school itself and wikipedia (and its mirrors), and usage in reliable sources whoich have a reach beyond the inhouse circles of the school and its alumni. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Rename per nom and recent CfDs. The proposed names are clear, concise, unambiguous, jargon-free and fit the consistent scheme for names in the parent category - in short, everything that a category name should be. -
The BushrangerOne ping only23:44, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is another category based on a name rather than a description. The name is the correct collective term for the group of people in question and is adequate for the purpose of categorization, which is the only task of a category. The suggestion that anyone would see the category name and think it refers to "former or historical inhabitants of the village of
Witley" is as preposterous and far-fetched as ever.
Moonraker (
talk)
01:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Nice trick, Ericoides: proclaim a high number, regardless of what that number means. When you posted that number, you left an edit summary saying "
"more smoke and mirrors" ... and that's a very accurate description of what you produced.
However, the first page of results consists solely of unreliable sources: self-published material (by the school and its alumni association), and wikipedia (plus its many mirrors). That's why I used Google News and Google Books, which search only reliable sources.
So Old Etonian(s)" is widely used in reliable sources, but "Old Witleian(s)" is used only in unreliable sources.
The results "Old Witleian(s)" is a term used only in the circles of the school and its alumni, and has no wider currency. That';s why it is totally useless as a category name for a general readership ... and it's a a great pity that a small minority of "Oldd Fooian" editors are unable (or unwilling) to understand the distinctions between common usage and the inhouse terminology of a small group. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
12:28, 9 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Domestic cricket competitions in the United States
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Category:Tram transport in Canada
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Question Are we sure what is common usage in Canada? On Google Canada Tram gets several times as many hits as either Canada Streetcar or Canada "Street Car". (Canada Street Car without the quotes gets more hits still be seems to include many off topic hits with cars on streets.)
RevelationDirect (
talk)
23:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Rest of the World cricket tours
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Category:Science organizations by type of organization
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not sure what to do but this rename isn't the right answer Both the proposed name and the current do not represent the contents accurately. The contents actually are mostly facilities, not organizations, though there are some of those too; it is definitely not composed on articles on types of organizations either. Maybe this needs to be split/merged into facility and organization structures?
Mangoe (
talk)
20:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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Category:Peter Jackson and du Maurier Classic
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Category:Amusement rides with virtual queues
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Wikipedia is not a
travel guide. If the contained material is somehow encyclopedic, it could be listified. Also the main article on
virtual queues is not about this topic and only mentions it in passing. This is not defining for the associated rides. It is a convenience for park attendees.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
02:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
Delete. It's not a defining characteristic of the ride, it may be a (nondefining) feature of the themepark and not specifically of the ride, it will be impossible to keep up-to-date as technology comes and goes from specific venues, and (as Vegaswikian says) the main article is currently about something else. --
Northernhenge (
talk)
16:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)reply
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