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Category:Government Office Regions
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Category:American basketball players of European descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination due to the late, and uncountered, argument that this one was different than the rest of the 20+ categories it was nominated with.
Courcelles09:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)reply
"White American" and "European American" are not the same. These terms are not interchangeble. On one side the US Census currently says whites are people with their ancestral origin in "Europe, the Middle East or North Africa". Thus White Americans by census standards include
Arab Americans,
Egyptian Americans,
Armenian Americans,
Moroccan Americans and probably
Iranian Americans, none of which are by any strech of the immagingion "European Americans". On the other hand historical and prsdent use of the term "White Americans" often excludes
Albanian Americans, Jews,
Italian Americans (I can prove this with various citations to dating website race classification schemes) and Russian Americans, all of which are without question European Americans.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)reply
While they may not technically be the same, in common parlance they are the same. Look at a player like
Jason Kidd or
Joakim Noah. Both have African and European heritage and they are rightfully categorized in both the African American and this category. However, if this is deleted, there will be no category for a player like Larry Bird, who was once identified as a "Great White Hope" while the Jewish and African American categories will persist.--
TM20:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)reply
A strong consensus exists that, per
WP:CATGRS, "Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right." I have shown above that being an American basketball player of European descent is, in fact, a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. If people are creating minor leagues, writing about and consistently noting in pop culture about it, Wikipedia's consensus is to keep the intersection.--
TM15:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
You've not shown it to my satisfaction, that's for sure. The path of white Americans in basketball is exactly the same as it is in nearly every other field: whites completely owned the environment, then blacks started to make inroads, and now they share the environment. The only thing different about this path is the supereminence of blacks at the end of that path, which does not make the white Americans' path any more notable..--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
15:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
How many articles on the topic do you need?
Slate.com wrote this piece on White American basketball players. The
New York Daily News and Huffington Post extensively covered the opening of the All-White league above with long discussions on the topic.
Noted sports commentatorMichael Wilbonwrote an op-ed about White NBA players and White players in general. What else do you want? Look at the stories and think about whether you really think it is not a 'distinct and unique cultural topic'.--
TM16:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I have no idea what YMMV means, but I think we need more commentators given that you and I disagree and Johnpacklambert only commented on the White vs. European issue.
Just as Black and African American are used, so should we use White and European descent. I'd rather rename this than delete it.--
TM13:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
But 'white' and 'european descent' are different.
Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white.
Occuli (
talk)
14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:American basketball players. FTR I would eliminate the African-American category as well. We do not need to add categories that conflate race and ethnic descent, and even if we did, it would not be as useful as TM seems to think. Categorizations are not footnoted and include both past and present, and professional players of the game were almost exclusively played by "European Americans" until the 1960s (as with many other sports). It provides no tool for comparison against team complexions in the present day, or, considering the uptake of basketball in China, what it could be in the future.-
choster (
talk)
15:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
But 'white' and 'european descent' are different.
Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white.
Occuli (
talk)
14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
White people are generally, though not totally, considered of European descent. I understand the exceptions regarding official US classifications raised above, but they can be broadly be construed as the same. Black and African American are not the same either and almost no African Americans can actually trace their ancestry to Africa. However,
Brian Scalabrine is aware of his Italian ancestry and thus European heritage. He also happens to be White as well. The
One-drop rule in the US has poisoned the way we look at race and ancestry and I see no need to follow that rule on Wikipedia.--
TM15:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Louisville Cardinals basketball venues
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Category:Bravo television series
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Category:WikiProject Backpacking Templates
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Government Office Regions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:American basketball players of European descent
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Procedural nomination due to the late, and uncountered, argument that this one was different than the rest of the 20+ categories it was nominated with.
Courcelles09:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)reply
"White American" and "European American" are not the same. These terms are not interchangeble. On one side the US Census currently says whites are people with their ancestral origin in "Europe, the Middle East or North Africa". Thus White Americans by census standards include
Arab Americans,
Egyptian Americans,
Armenian Americans,
Moroccan Americans and probably
Iranian Americans, none of which are by any strech of the immagingion "European Americans". On the other hand historical and prsdent use of the term "White Americans" often excludes
Albanian Americans, Jews,
Italian Americans (I can prove this with various citations to dating website race classification schemes) and Russian Americans, all of which are without question European Americans.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
20:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)reply
While they may not technically be the same, in common parlance they are the same. Look at a player like
Jason Kidd or
Joakim Noah. Both have African and European heritage and they are rightfully categorized in both the African American and this category. However, if this is deleted, there will be no category for a player like Larry Bird, who was once identified as a "Great White Hope" while the Jewish and African American categories will persist.--
TM20:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)reply
A strong consensus exists that, per
WP:CATGRS, "Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right." I have shown above that being an American basketball player of European descent is, in fact, a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. If people are creating minor leagues, writing about and consistently noting in pop culture about it, Wikipedia's consensus is to keep the intersection.--
TM15:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
You've not shown it to my satisfaction, that's for sure. The path of white Americans in basketball is exactly the same as it is in nearly every other field: whites completely owned the environment, then blacks started to make inroads, and now they share the environment. The only thing different about this path is the supereminence of blacks at the end of that path, which does not make the white Americans' path any more notable..--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
15:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
How many articles on the topic do you need?
Slate.com wrote this piece on White American basketball players. The
New York Daily News and Huffington Post extensively covered the opening of the All-White league above with long discussions on the topic.
Noted sports commentatorMichael Wilbonwrote an op-ed about White NBA players and White players in general. What else do you want? Look at the stories and think about whether you really think it is not a 'distinct and unique cultural topic'.--
TM16:02, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I have no idea what YMMV means, but I think we need more commentators given that you and I disagree and Johnpacklambert only commented on the White vs. European issue.
Just as Black and African American are used, so should we use White and European descent. I'd rather rename this than delete it.--
TM13:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
But 'white' and 'european descent' are different.
Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white.
Occuli (
talk)
14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:American basketball players. FTR I would eliminate the African-American category as well. We do not need to add categories that conflate race and ethnic descent, and even if we did, it would not be as useful as TM seems to think. Categorizations are not footnoted and include both past and present, and professional players of the game were almost exclusively played by "European Americans" until the 1960s (as with many other sports). It provides no tool for comparison against team complexions in the present day, or, considering the uptake of basketball in China, what it could be in the future.-
choster (
talk)
15:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
But 'white' and 'european descent' are different.
Obama is of European descent (there are Europeans among his ancestors) but he is generally not considered white.
Occuli (
talk)
14:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
White people are generally, though not totally, considered of European descent. I understand the exceptions regarding official US classifications raised above, but they can be broadly be construed as the same. Black and African American are not the same either and almost no African Americans can actually trace their ancestry to Africa. However,
Brian Scalabrine is aware of his Italian ancestry and thus European heritage. He also happens to be White as well. The
One-drop rule in the US has poisoned the way we look at race and ancestry and I see no need to follow that rule on Wikipedia.--
TM15:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Louisville Cardinals basketball venues
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Bravo television series
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:WikiProject Backpacking Templates
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.