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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Basically to match the form used by the other subcategories. Home state is actually ambiguous. Does it mean where you are born? Where you spent most of your life? Where you went to school? Do
military brats have a home state?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:ZF transmissions
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Category:US OFAC Specially Designated Global Terrorist
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale: The category is much too specific. If there would be a category for every list that is being maintained by a country's government, the categorization scheme would become unmanageable.
More importantly, the content of that list is subject to change. Presumable, we will not be able to apply such changes immediately to the category. Having people on this list that are not actually on the US OFAC list would be a serious
WP:BLP issue. Cs32enTalk to me19:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename, it is in line with additional government maintained categories that we maintain, such as "U.S. State Department designated terrorist organizations", "
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists" and "United Kingdom Home Office designated terrorist groups". Having said that, I think renaming "US OFAC" to "US Office of Foreign Assets Control" would be a good idea since "OFAC" is indeed not a well known initialism.
Marokwitz (
talk)
07:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename by expanding OFAC, as an abbreviation that not every one knows (if kept). Any libel issues resulting from removal of a person for the list will no doubt be resolved quickly by editing, when a complaint is made.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. Is this serious? It is in line with additional government maintained categories that we maintain, notable, and knowable. And the vast majority of our lists are subject to change -- is that really the best nom can come up with? Ridiculous.--
Epeefleche (
talk)
04:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. I support the deletion of all "organizations designated terrorist by XXXX" categories. They are too centric and have become problematic in a variety of ways, one of which is the need for constatnt updating.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
All lists "need" updating. If you are only for lists that don't "need" updating, and categories that don't "need" updating, that's a fine notion to bring to an RfC. But while we have lists and cats, that sounds suspiciously like "IDONTLIKEIT".--
Epeefleche (
talk)
04:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
This is not a list; it is a category. It is my opinion that they have been (and should be) treated differently and that different considerations will therefore apply to each. In my opinion, categories are best kept "timeless". These ones are also far too -centric, as I said. Please don't attempt to dismiss user statements that you disagree with with an invocation of IDON'TLIKEIT. It's better to ask questions rather than assume you know what someone is thinking.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
WRT "timeless", if the category continues to contain individuals who were once named on the list, and but who have been removed, then it would be timeless, wouldn't it? OJ Simpson would continue to belong in a category named something like Category:Murder suspects, even once he was acquitted.
Geo Swan (
talk)
23:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Actually, what you set out is the definition of "timeless" as I was using it. Timeless means it doesn't change, except when new ones are added. Once in the category—always in the category. We don't generally categorize people by past or current status. That's why I don't think stuff like this is good for categories—people get squeamish about including people in the category when they've been removed from the list, as well they should. Hence my vote for deletion—these just don't work well in the normal way categories are operated, as much as users want to believe otherwise. That's the very reason we don't have
Category:Murder suspects.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep -- I agree the OFAC part of the category name should be expanded. This is a clearcut category, unlike categories that require a judgement call on the part of contributors considering placing them or removing them.
I frankly don't see the BLP concern mentioned above. BLP isn't supposed to protect the individuals we cover from facing well documented allegations in our articles. It is supposed to protect them from facing frivolous, specious, poorly documented allegations. It seems to me that many contributors whose interpretation of BLP would have us strip all negative material actually do a disservice to some of those individuals. Some individuals face serious allegations, from official bodies, that are nevertheless the subject of widespread skepticism. It seems to me that when the allegation is from an official body our opinions as to whether those allegations are credible are not relevant. It seems to me that when the allegation is weak, covering the allegation is in the individual's interest, because it gives our wide-awake, fair-minded, intelligent readers an opportunity to reach an informed opinion as to whether the allegation is credible. Stripping out "negative" allegations is not in the individual's interest, as it leaves our readers to rely on other sources, that aren't committed to the neutral point of view.
We need the next major revision of the wikimedia software to replace the current category system with something different. It is an inherent weakness of our category system that it has no facility for the person who placed an article in the category to provide a reference, to substantiate why they placed it. In addition I think it is a weakness that categories have to history mechanism.
Geo Swan (
talk)
03:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we "strip out negative allegations" from any articles. Whether a category exists or not is an issue that is independent of what information exists in an article.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
And indeed it could be. If they're not on the list, presumably there would be no reference in the article for them being on the list. Hence there would be no stripping of information, apart from an improperly placed category, since categories should not be placed in the absence of referenced material.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:26, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm glad this CFD is still open, as I had meant to return to add a comment on this very point. Indeed, the larger issue here is that we should not have these categories for specific US govt. agencies. Every other country with analagous categories has just a single category -- not a multiplicity. (The Russian cat does specify the agency, but it's still the only one for that country.) The point being that, if we are going to have such categories at all, we should only have a single category for the US:
Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by the United States government.
Cgingold (
talk)
13:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Printed electronics
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Listify to main article and delete. There are several lists in the main article that cover the contents here. They are more complete and better organized. It is interesting to note that there is little overlap between the contents there and here. Perhaps an indication of the lack of need for this Mac category.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Energy feedstocks
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Nominator's rationale:Merge. OC small. I believe that the proposed target is a better home for the contents then the current parent categories.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fossil-fuel disasters
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Nominator's rationale:Delete.
WP:POVFORK. It may be seen useful to categorize disasters by type of energy involved; however, it seems that this category is created just to incriminate fossil fuels. It is hard to see what is the common nominator of oil platform collapses or gas coalmine disasters.
Beagel (
talk)
17:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep but may need renaming to eliminate the en-dash. On this rare occasion I have to agree with the user whose name is a scarecrow here. "Fossil fuel" extraction is a defining common denominator for oil, gas, coal, etc. Just like
Category:Transportation disasters is a convenient common umbrella for shipwrecks, plane crashes and rare
cable car accidents. Hard to see? not really (Disclaimer: I might be intoxicated by the fumes of dried peat bogs burning just twenty kilometers away - another fossil fuel FUBAR. First they were wetlands, than peat quarries, now they just burn. I might see things :) ).
East of Borschov18:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. The common nominator for most of them (not all) is "Industrial accidents and incidents". I don't think that
Lake Monoun or
Ronan Point explosions has nothing anything to do with "Fossil fuel extraction" (well, they also not industrial accidents). The comparison with transport disaster category is not correct as there is no specific categories based on the type of the fuel used by vehicle (e.g.
category:Fossil fuel transport disasters not dreaming about
category:Plug-in vehicles accidents). My point is that fire at the oil depot storing natural crude oil is a same as fire at the oil depot storing biofuels. Biogas explodes the same way as natural gas. Peat bogs burning is similar disaster as a forest (biomass) fire. In addition, the parent
category:Environmental disasters is questionable as not every explosion or mining accident is necessarily environmental disaster.
Beagel (
talk)
19:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete per above and per nom. This is precisely the kind of POV crap that Mac/Nopetro was allowed to get away with for far, far too long. Coal mining disasters are already adequately categorized with other forms of mining accidents; oil spills are also properly categorized. Dying in an underground coal mine disaster is imo no more or less intrinsically linked to an oil platform spill than perishing in a diamond or metals mine collapse. The fact that the end product is burned for energy is does not create a defining grouping for disasters across different technologies as far as I'm concerned. And yes, I am not assuming good faith with Nopetro. I interacted with him before his indef ban. Hell, I largely got him banned by blowing the whistle on what he was doing and refusing to let it drop. I know what he tried to do here, in fact, to his credit, he never much tried to hide it. This is another example of him using Wikipedia to advance his pet agenda.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
03:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oh, and for more fun, see the CfD now underway for
Category:Fossil fuel phase out, below. Disasters, phase outs, declines, whatever. Nopetro's scheme was to throw as much of his POV rubbish into this project as possible to see what he could get away with, regardless of the damage done. It's taken months to clean up and we're clearly still not done.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete. I'll hazard a comment that most of these roll up into
Category:Fossil fuels. So why do we need to have this category? The name of the category is POV since it implies that the fossil fuels are the cause of the disaster. However in many of these cases, it is human error or mechanical failure that caused the disaster and the fossil fuels were what was ignited as a result of other influences. So the fuel was not itself the cause of the disaster and hence does not make this intersection defining.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Coal mining companies of the United States
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Nominator's rationale:Merge. No clear distinction between these categories, significant overlapping. As 'coal companies' is a wider term including also coal trading companies withoutmining activities, I propose to merge this way but it is acceptable also merging vice versa.
Beagel (
talk)
17:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Support Another duplicate category from Mac/Nopetro, created with typically little regard for the fact that an adequate category had previously been created and populated (by the CfD nominator, in fact).
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hybrid electric trucks
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Category:Road pollution pricing schemes
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Category:Fossil fuel phase out
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Your reason(s) for the proposed deletion. Small category. Most of entries are about different organizations without mentioning fossil fuels phase-out. The only article belonging in this category is
Making Sweden an Oil-Free Society.
Beagel (
talk)
16:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete Can't believe we missed this one, which is at the very heart of Mac's next incarnation as User:Nopetro ("No petroleum"). Other similar soapbox cats from him -- particularly
Category:Nuclear phase-out, per his last sock ID User:Nudecline -- have similarly been deleted and this bit of rubbish should follow promptly.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
12:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alternative energy economics
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Although it may be an useful category, right now it is just a collection of different renewable energy, energy conservation and organizations articles not related to the economics. It also missing a main article or clear guidelines for inclusion. It seems that the best solution may be deletion and recreation when there will be actual articles about the alternative energy economics.
Beagel (
talk)
16:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:America's Next Top Model spin-offs
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Greek politicians
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Finnish politicians
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Estonian politicians by party
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. All of these categories are used to group politicians. I suggest renaming these to the standard format of "POLITICAL PARTY politicians", using the names of the articles about the parties in question.
Good Ol’factory(talk)12:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Slovak politicians by party
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. All of these categories are used to group politicians. I suggest renaming these to the standard format of "POLITICAL PARTY politicians", using the names of the articles about the parties in question.
Good Ol’factory(talk)11:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Biomechanics of intrinsic gravity
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Category:Compressed air vehicle manufacturers
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Support there is but one article in the source category, which I believe was created by banned user Mac. This splinter cat is not necessary at this time, and probably, never.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
02:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Carbon emissions trading schemes in the European Union
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I think that the proposed merges would allow this restructuring after the fact. Kind of hard to do a detailed restructuring within a CfD.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Basically to match the form used by the other subcategories. Home state is actually ambiguous. Does it mean where you are born? Where you spent most of your life? Where you went to school? Do
military brats have a home state?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:ZF transmissions
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Category:US OFAC Specially Designated Global Terrorist
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Nominator's rationale: The category is much too specific. If there would be a category for every list that is being maintained by a country's government, the categorization scheme would become unmanageable.
More importantly, the content of that list is subject to change. Presumable, we will not be able to apply such changes immediately to the category. Having people on this list that are not actually on the US OFAC list would be a serious
WP:BLP issue. Cs32enTalk to me19:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename, it is in line with additional government maintained categories that we maintain, such as "U.S. State Department designated terrorist organizations", "
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists" and "United Kingdom Home Office designated terrorist groups". Having said that, I think renaming "US OFAC" to "US Office of Foreign Assets Control" would be a good idea since "OFAC" is indeed not a well known initialism.
Marokwitz (
talk)
07:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename by expanding OFAC, as an abbreviation that not every one knows (if kept). Any libel issues resulting from removal of a person for the list will no doubt be resolved quickly by editing, when a complaint is made.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Strong Keep. Is this serious? It is in line with additional government maintained categories that we maintain, notable, and knowable. And the vast majority of our lists are subject to change -- is that really the best nom can come up with? Ridiculous.--
Epeefleche (
talk)
04:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. I support the deletion of all "organizations designated terrorist by XXXX" categories. They are too centric and have become problematic in a variety of ways, one of which is the need for constatnt updating.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
All lists "need" updating. If you are only for lists that don't "need" updating, and categories that don't "need" updating, that's a fine notion to bring to an RfC. But while we have lists and cats, that sounds suspiciously like "IDONTLIKEIT".--
Epeefleche (
talk)
04:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
This is not a list; it is a category. It is my opinion that they have been (and should be) treated differently and that different considerations will therefore apply to each. In my opinion, categories are best kept "timeless". These ones are also far too -centric, as I said. Please don't attempt to dismiss user statements that you disagree with with an invocation of IDON'TLIKEIT. It's better to ask questions rather than assume you know what someone is thinking.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
WRT "timeless", if the category continues to contain individuals who were once named on the list, and but who have been removed, then it would be timeless, wouldn't it? OJ Simpson would continue to belong in a category named something like Category:Murder suspects, even once he was acquitted.
Geo Swan (
talk)
23:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Actually, what you set out is the definition of "timeless" as I was using it. Timeless means it doesn't change, except when new ones are added. Once in the category—always in the category. We don't generally categorize people by past or current status. That's why I don't think stuff like this is good for categories—people get squeamish about including people in the category when they've been removed from the list, as well they should. Hence my vote for deletion—these just don't work well in the normal way categories are operated, as much as users want to believe otherwise. That's the very reason we don't have
Category:Murder suspects.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep -- I agree the OFAC part of the category name should be expanded. This is a clearcut category, unlike categories that require a judgement call on the part of contributors considering placing them or removing them.
I frankly don't see the BLP concern mentioned above. BLP isn't supposed to protect the individuals we cover from facing well documented allegations in our articles. It is supposed to protect them from facing frivolous, specious, poorly documented allegations. It seems to me that many contributors whose interpretation of BLP would have us strip all negative material actually do a disservice to some of those individuals. Some individuals face serious allegations, from official bodies, that are nevertheless the subject of widespread skepticism. It seems to me that when the allegation is from an official body our opinions as to whether those allegations are credible are not relevant. It seems to me that when the allegation is weak, covering the allegation is in the individual's interest, because it gives our wide-awake, fair-minded, intelligent readers an opportunity to reach an informed opinion as to whether the allegation is credible. Stripping out "negative" allegations is not in the individual's interest, as it leaves our readers to rely on other sources, that aren't committed to the neutral point of view.
We need the next major revision of the wikimedia software to replace the current category system with something different. It is an inherent weakness of our category system that it has no facility for the person who placed an article in the category to provide a reference, to substantiate why they placed it. In addition I think it is a weakness that categories have to history mechanism.
Geo Swan (
talk)
03:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we "strip out negative allegations" from any articles. Whether a category exists or not is an issue that is independent of what information exists in an article.
Good Ol’factory(talk)04:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
And indeed it could be. If they're not on the list, presumably there would be no reference in the article for them being on the list. Hence there would be no stripping of information, apart from an improperly placed category, since categories should not be placed in the absence of referenced material.
Good Ol’factory(talk)00:26, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm glad this CFD is still open, as I had meant to return to add a comment on this very point. Indeed, the larger issue here is that we should not have these categories for specific US govt. agencies. Every other country with analagous categories has just a single category -- not a multiplicity. (The Russian cat does specify the agency, but it's still the only one for that country.) The point being that, if we are going to have such categories at all, we should only have a single category for the US:
Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by the United States government.
Cgingold (
talk)
13:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Printed electronics
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Delete. Listify to main article and delete. There are several lists in the main article that cover the contents here. They are more complete and better organized. It is interesting to note that there is little overlap between the contents there and here. Perhaps an indication of the lack of need for this Mac category.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Energy feedstocks
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Nominator's rationale:Merge. OC small. I believe that the proposed target is a better home for the contents then the current parent categories.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fossil-fuel disasters
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Nominator's rationale:Delete.
WP:POVFORK. It may be seen useful to categorize disasters by type of energy involved; however, it seems that this category is created just to incriminate fossil fuels. It is hard to see what is the common nominator of oil platform collapses or gas coalmine disasters.
Beagel (
talk)
17:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep but may need renaming to eliminate the en-dash. On this rare occasion I have to agree with the user whose name is a scarecrow here. "Fossil fuel" extraction is a defining common denominator for oil, gas, coal, etc. Just like
Category:Transportation disasters is a convenient common umbrella for shipwrecks, plane crashes and rare
cable car accidents. Hard to see? not really (Disclaimer: I might be intoxicated by the fumes of dried peat bogs burning just twenty kilometers away - another fossil fuel FUBAR. First they were wetlands, than peat quarries, now they just burn. I might see things :) ).
East of Borschov18:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. The common nominator for most of them (not all) is "Industrial accidents and incidents". I don't think that
Lake Monoun or
Ronan Point explosions has nothing anything to do with "Fossil fuel extraction" (well, they also not industrial accidents). The comparison with transport disaster category is not correct as there is no specific categories based on the type of the fuel used by vehicle (e.g.
category:Fossil fuel transport disasters not dreaming about
category:Plug-in vehicles accidents). My point is that fire at the oil depot storing natural crude oil is a same as fire at the oil depot storing biofuels. Biogas explodes the same way as natural gas. Peat bogs burning is similar disaster as a forest (biomass) fire. In addition, the parent
category:Environmental disasters is questionable as not every explosion or mining accident is necessarily environmental disaster.
Beagel (
talk)
19:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete per above and per nom. This is precisely the kind of POV crap that Mac/Nopetro was allowed to get away with for far, far too long. Coal mining disasters are already adequately categorized with other forms of mining accidents; oil spills are also properly categorized. Dying in an underground coal mine disaster is imo no more or less intrinsically linked to an oil platform spill than perishing in a diamond or metals mine collapse. The fact that the end product is burned for energy is does not create a defining grouping for disasters across different technologies as far as I'm concerned. And yes, I am not assuming good faith with Nopetro. I interacted with him before his indef ban. Hell, I largely got him banned by blowing the whistle on what he was doing and refusing to let it drop. I know what he tried to do here, in fact, to his credit, he never much tried to hide it. This is another example of him using Wikipedia to advance his pet agenda.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
03:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oh, and for more fun, see the CfD now underway for
Category:Fossil fuel phase out, below. Disasters, phase outs, declines, whatever. Nopetro's scheme was to throw as much of his POV rubbish into this project as possible to see what he could get away with, regardless of the damage done. It's taken months to clean up and we're clearly still not done.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete. I'll hazard a comment that most of these roll up into
Category:Fossil fuels. So why do we need to have this category? The name of the category is POV since it implies that the fossil fuels are the cause of the disaster. However in many of these cases, it is human error or mechanical failure that caused the disaster and the fossil fuels were what was ignited as a result of other influences. So the fuel was not itself the cause of the disaster and hence does not make this intersection defining.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Coal mining companies of the United States
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Nominator's rationale:Merge. No clear distinction between these categories, significant overlapping. As 'coal companies' is a wider term including also coal trading companies withoutmining activities, I propose to merge this way but it is acceptable also merging vice versa.
Beagel (
talk)
17:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Support Another duplicate category from Mac/Nopetro, created with typically little regard for the fact that an adequate category had previously been created and populated (by the CfD nominator, in fact).
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
14:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Hybrid electric trucks
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Category:Road pollution pricing schemes
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Category:Fossil fuel phase out
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Your reason(s) for the proposed deletion. Small category. Most of entries are about different organizations without mentioning fossil fuels phase-out. The only article belonging in this category is
Making Sweden an Oil-Free Society.
Beagel (
talk)
16:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete Can't believe we missed this one, which is at the very heart of Mac's next incarnation as User:Nopetro ("No petroleum"). Other similar soapbox cats from him -- particularly
Category:Nuclear phase-out, per his last sock ID User:Nudecline -- have similarly been deleted and this bit of rubbish should follow promptly.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
12:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Alternative energy economics
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Although it may be an useful category, right now it is just a collection of different renewable energy, energy conservation and organizations articles not related to the economics. It also missing a main article or clear guidelines for inclusion. It seems that the best solution may be deletion and recreation when there will be actual articles about the alternative energy economics.
Beagel (
talk)
16:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:America's Next Top Model spin-offs
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Greek politicians
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Finnish politicians
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Estonian politicians by party
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. All of these categories are used to group politicians. I suggest renaming these to the standard format of "POLITICAL PARTY politicians", using the names of the articles about the parties in question.
Good Ol’factory(talk)12:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Slovak politicians by party
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. All of these categories are used to group politicians. I suggest renaming these to the standard format of "POLITICAL PARTY politicians", using the names of the articles about the parties in question.
Good Ol’factory(talk)11:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Biomechanics of intrinsic gravity
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Category:Compressed air vehicle manufacturers
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Support there is but one article in the source category, which I believe was created by banned user Mac. This splinter cat is not necessary at this time, and probably, never.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
02:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Carbon emissions trading schemes in the European Union
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I think that the proposed merges would allow this restructuring after the fact. Kind of hard to do a detailed restructuring within a CfD.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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