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Agreed. Perhaps it's been used as a way around not categorizing non-politicians by political party. Deletion and re-sorting as politicians (if any are) may be an option here.
Good Ol’factory(talk)08:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Ithomiinae
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Awards and trophies
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More college sports
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Per previous nominations adding "in the United States" such as
this one and
this one. These are all categories which, as far as I can tell, only involve articles about American subjects. There's no prejudice in this nomination against recreating the broader categories if articles covering non-US subjects are found. (See above nomination for rationale for switching "awards and trophies" to "trophies and awards".)--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
14:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Vietnam War photos
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Provinces of Belarus
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Question - Is there consensus, really? Replacing Voblasts with Regions is one thing, replacing Belorussian-language toponyms with Russian counterparts is controversial (to say the least).
East of Borschov06:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. Right now, Russian-language and Belarussian-language articles and categories are unevenly mixed up, apparently Belarussian language is more common but the most visible articles, i.e.
Mogilev (see its talk page) are spelled from Russian. Renaming, if approved, must uniformly extend downstream, i.e.
Oppose, 1) the names should remain basing on Belarusian language, i.e. if changing voblast to region it should be
Hrodna region, not Jrodno. 2) Voblast is the name for Belarusian provinces. It is a loanword from Russian and is not translated into Belarusian --
Czalex18:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment: If someone wants to question the consensus for the article moves, the correct place to do that is on the article's talk page. In my opinion, there's no reason to name the categories differently from what is decided for the articles. We can put this CfD on hold to discuss the article moves further.
Jafeluv (
talk)
23:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Good idea, although wholesale, massive renames are more appropriate for wikiproject boards. Meanwhile, the contents of the renamed articles need to be adjusted to their new names (
Mogilev Region etc.).
East of Borschov05:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Based upon the above discussion, it would seem that, for this to get any traction, it would likely need to be renommed in separate noms for each main issue. (This appears to be a good example of when a group nom isn't as helpful in determining consensus.) -
jc3721:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Probably needs centralized discussion about naming administrative units of non-English language countries. E.g., we have system of categories about administrative units in Russia using 'oblast' in their name. It is pointless to rename Belorussian 'voblast' but at the same time to keep Russian 'oblast'.
Beagel (
talk)
13:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Units of magnetic induction
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Comment - I just took a quick spin thru
Category:Units of measure and found that there are three other 1-article categories. In addition, there are five 2-article categories. So whatever we decide here has clear implications for those other categories.
Cgingold (
talk)
01:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment A look through these categories shows that most of the multiplicity is brought about by the urge of some official or another to give the CGS unit a separate name from the MKS metric unit rather than applying order of magnitude prefixes. Conversely, the hierarchy is very flat; for instance, there are a lot of electromagnetic unit categories but not an overall category for all the various electromagnetic quantities. I think it might make the most sense to upmerge all these small categories for now and then work out a better categorization by more general topic.
Mangoe (
talk)
14:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Push for no consensus Based on what I see for comments, this category should be discussed upon first elsewhere and not deleted. A deletion can always be had at a later date if this category proves not useful in it's current name or form. -
Knowledgekid87 (
talk)
06:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Album types
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Category:Nigerien National Assembly members
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Category:Open source games
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Nominator's rationale: This category should rename to disambiguate from video games. Also video game sub-category should be re-parentised.
Miami33139 (
talk)
18:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Administrator note Usually I'd just close no-feedback noms and do the rename, but I get the feeling this could use another set of eyes.
Courcelles03:04, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Members of the Senate of Northern Ireland 1933–1938
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. These categories were created on the assumption that Senate election were always held in the same year as elections to the lower house but, while this was usually true, Senate elections were held in 1937 and 1957, rather than 1938 and 1958.
Warofdreamstalk00:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
You are mistaken. Can you provide even one reliable source which states that the elections were 1938 and 1958? It's taken a considerable amount of time to find any reliable sources giving the years of the Senate elections, which are clearly stated in John F. Harbinson's The Ulster Unionist Party, 1882-1973. Remember, these are Senate elections we are talking about, not the ones to the Commons.
Warofdreamstalk12:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Every source I reviewed puts the election dates at 1938 and 1958. It is incumbent upon you, as the party making the extraordinary claim, to provide reliable sources to support it. I would also note that depending on when the Senators were actually sworn into office, the dates 1938 and 1958 may be correct regardless (e.g. a US congressperson elected in 2008 doesn't actually become a congressperson until 2009).
Are You The Cow Of Pain? (
talk)
12:45, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I've given you my source, which is perfectly ordinary and in no way extraordinary. Do you have any source which says otherwise? You say you've reviewed several; I'd love to know what they are, because I have looked into this pretty thoroughly and have not found one. We need to use reliable sources, not your guesswork, or anybody else's.
Warofdreamstalk14:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Actually, that's better evidence that I had previously realised. Although it appears not to distinguish between terms starting or ending at the periodic elections, and those starting or ending at a by-election, actually there is a note by everyone who died or resigned during their term of office. While that might have been during an election year, it does logically follow that any term ending without a death or resignation must be because they came to the end of their term and either did not restand, or were defeated for re-election. Using that information, 1937 and 1957 must be election years, and 1938 and 1958 were not.
Warofdreamstalk15:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Incidentally, another source for the 1937 election date is "Unionists lose a seat" in the Irish Times of 22 June 1937. Unfortunately, they don't appear to have covered the election in 1957.
Warofdreamstalk15:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I've asked AYTCOP twice on their talk page to provide any of this evidence they claim, and they have simply blanked my request. I think we can safely conclude that it does not exist.
Warofdreamstalk12:19, 14 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment and question. The
Senate of Northern Ireland is one of the more obscure legislatures in these islands, despite being more recent than some very short-lived bodies, and I commend those involved in trying to document it: even Walker, in his Parliamentary election results in Ireland 1918–1992 omits any mention of the body. However, that obscurity may impose limitations on what can be done.
It's a little unhelpful that the two editors discussing this above refer to the existence of evidence, but provide (AFAICS) only one link to it and no link to any of the previous discussions mentioned. Please folks, can you share your data and discussions with other the editors who may want to participate in thus CFD?
My question arises from the above. Given the scarcity of sources, is a system of categorisation-by-term actually viable for NI Senators? In general I'm a strong advocate of categorisation-by-term for parliamentarians, but in this case I have to question whether there is really enough data to support it. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
Thanks for your comments. I'm not aware of any previous discussions; the categories were created by
User:Mooretwin exactly one year ago. Part of the complication here is that there is very little on the Senate available online - the Northern Ireland Elections article which Occuli links above specifically notes this. But the body wasn't always so obscure; Harbinson gives a complete list of Unionist Senators (i.e. almost all the members of the House), with brief biographies, and devotes a section of the book to the operation of the Senate. As I say, he is very clear on the periodisation. The Irish Times covered the earlier elections, but not all the later ones (and the elections themselves were rather unexciting, re-electing almost all the members standing down, and with an electorate solely composed of the MPs). That's the sum total of the evidence I have, and I've noted it all above. It's not a vast amount, but is sufficient that I am entirely confident that elections were held in 1937 and 1957, and not in 1938 or 1958. It may well be that British newspapers also covered the elections, and I'm sure that the main papers in Northern Ireland would have more, should anyone have access to the articles.
Warofdreamstalk21:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Agreed. Perhaps it's been used as a way around not categorizing non-politicians by political party. Deletion and re-sorting as politicians (if any are) may be an option here.
Good Ol’factory(talk)08:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Ithomiinae
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Awards and trophies
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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More college sports
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. Per previous nominations adding "in the United States" such as
this one and
this one. These are all categories which, as far as I can tell, only involve articles about American subjects. There's no prejudice in this nomination against recreating the broader categories if articles covering non-US subjects are found. (See above nomination for rationale for switching "awards and trophies" to "trophies and awards".)--
Mike Selinker (
talk)
14:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Vietnam War photos
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Provinces of Belarus
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Question - Is there consensus, really? Replacing Voblasts with Regions is one thing, replacing Belorussian-language toponyms with Russian counterparts is controversial (to say the least).
East of Borschov06:54, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. Right now, Russian-language and Belarussian-language articles and categories are unevenly mixed up, apparently Belarussian language is more common but the most visible articles, i.e.
Mogilev (see its talk page) are spelled from Russian. Renaming, if approved, must uniformly extend downstream, i.e.
Oppose, 1) the names should remain basing on Belarusian language, i.e. if changing voblast to region it should be
Hrodna region, not Jrodno. 2) Voblast is the name for Belarusian provinces. It is a loanword from Russian and is not translated into Belarusian --
Czalex18:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment: If someone wants to question the consensus for the article moves, the correct place to do that is on the article's talk page. In my opinion, there's no reason to name the categories differently from what is decided for the articles. We can put this CfD on hold to discuss the article moves further.
Jafeluv (
talk)
23:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Good idea, although wholesale, massive renames are more appropriate for wikiproject boards. Meanwhile, the contents of the renamed articles need to be adjusted to their new names (
Mogilev Region etc.).
East of Borschov05:15, 13 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose - Based upon the above discussion, it would seem that, for this to get any traction, it would likely need to be renommed in separate noms for each main issue. (This appears to be a good example of when a group nom isn't as helpful in determining consensus.) -
jc3721:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Probably needs centralized discussion about naming administrative units of non-English language countries. E.g., we have system of categories about administrative units in Russia using 'oblast' in their name. It is pointless to rename Belorussian 'voblast' but at the same time to keep Russian 'oblast'.
Beagel (
talk)
13:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Units of magnetic induction
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Comment - I just took a quick spin thru
Category:Units of measure and found that there are three other 1-article categories. In addition, there are five 2-article categories. So whatever we decide here has clear implications for those other categories.
Cgingold (
talk)
01:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment A look through these categories shows that most of the multiplicity is brought about by the urge of some official or another to give the CGS unit a separate name from the MKS metric unit rather than applying order of magnitude prefixes. Conversely, the hierarchy is very flat; for instance, there are a lot of electromagnetic unit categories but not an overall category for all the various electromagnetic quantities. I think it might make the most sense to upmerge all these small categories for now and then work out a better categorization by more general topic.
Mangoe (
talk)
14:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Push for no consensus Based on what I see for comments, this category should be discussed upon first elsewhere and not deleted. A deletion can always be had at a later date if this category proves not useful in it's current name or form. -
Knowledgekid87 (
talk)
06:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Album types
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Category:Nigerien National Assembly members
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Category:Open source games
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Nominator's rationale: This category should rename to disambiguate from video games. Also video game sub-category should be re-parentised.
Miami33139 (
talk)
18:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Administrator note Usually I'd just close no-feedback noms and do the rename, but I get the feeling this could use another set of eyes.
Courcelles03:04, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Members of the Senate of Northern Ireland 1933–1938
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. These categories were created on the assumption that Senate election were always held in the same year as elections to the lower house but, while this was usually true, Senate elections were held in 1937 and 1957, rather than 1938 and 1958.
Warofdreamstalk00:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
You are mistaken. Can you provide even one reliable source which states that the elections were 1938 and 1958? It's taken a considerable amount of time to find any reliable sources giving the years of the Senate elections, which are clearly stated in John F. Harbinson's The Ulster Unionist Party, 1882-1973. Remember, these are Senate elections we are talking about, not the ones to the Commons.
Warofdreamstalk12:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Every source I reviewed puts the election dates at 1938 and 1958. It is incumbent upon you, as the party making the extraordinary claim, to provide reliable sources to support it. I would also note that depending on when the Senators were actually sworn into office, the dates 1938 and 1958 may be correct regardless (e.g. a US congressperson elected in 2008 doesn't actually become a congressperson until 2009).
Are You The Cow Of Pain? (
talk)
12:45, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I've given you my source, which is perfectly ordinary and in no way extraordinary. Do you have any source which says otherwise? You say you've reviewed several; I'd love to know what they are, because I have looked into this pretty thoroughly and have not found one. We need to use reliable sources, not your guesswork, or anybody else's.
Warofdreamstalk14:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Actually, that's better evidence that I had previously realised. Although it appears not to distinguish between terms starting or ending at the periodic elections, and those starting or ending at a by-election, actually there is a note by everyone who died or resigned during their term of office. While that might have been during an election year, it does logically follow that any term ending without a death or resignation must be because they came to the end of their term and either did not restand, or were defeated for re-election. Using that information, 1937 and 1957 must be election years, and 1938 and 1958 were not.
Warofdreamstalk15:08, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Incidentally, another source for the 1937 election date is "Unionists lose a seat" in the Irish Times of 22 June 1937. Unfortunately, they don't appear to have covered the election in 1957.
Warofdreamstalk15:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
I've asked AYTCOP twice on their talk page to provide any of this evidence they claim, and they have simply blanked my request. I think we can safely conclude that it does not exist.
Warofdreamstalk12:19, 14 August 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment and question. The
Senate of Northern Ireland is one of the more obscure legislatures in these islands, despite being more recent than some very short-lived bodies, and I commend those involved in trying to document it: even Walker, in his Parliamentary election results in Ireland 1918–1992 omits any mention of the body. However, that obscurity may impose limitations on what can be done.
It's a little unhelpful that the two editors discussing this above refer to the existence of evidence, but provide (AFAICS) only one link to it and no link to any of the previous discussions mentioned. Please folks, can you share your data and discussions with other the editors who may want to participate in thus CFD?
My question arises from the above. Given the scarcity of sources, is a system of categorisation-by-term actually viable for NI Senators? In general I'm a strong advocate of categorisation-by-term for parliamentarians, but in this case I have to question whether there is really enough data to support it. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
Thanks for your comments. I'm not aware of any previous discussions; the categories were created by
User:Mooretwin exactly one year ago. Part of the complication here is that there is very little on the Senate available online - the Northern Ireland Elections article which Occuli links above specifically notes this. But the body wasn't always so obscure; Harbinson gives a complete list of Unionist Senators (i.e. almost all the members of the House), with brief biographies, and devotes a section of the book to the operation of the Senate. As I say, he is very clear on the periodisation. The Irish Times covered the earlier elections, but not all the later ones (and the elections themselves were rather unexciting, re-electing almost all the members standing down, and with an electorate solely composed of the MPs). That's the sum total of the evidence I have, and I've noted it all above. It's not a vast amount, but is sufficient that I am entirely confident that elections were held in 1937 and 1957, and not in 1938 or 1958. It may well be that British newspapers also covered the elections, and I'm sure that the main papers in Northern Ireland would have more, should anyone have access to the articles.
Warofdreamstalk21:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.