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I don't have a problem with including Danny Huston - article says he is of part 'Anglo-Iranian' descent and 'Fooian descent' means either descendant of the country or the ethnicity 'Fooia'.
Mayumashu (
talk)
17:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Parishes of Ireland
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename per nom and cleanup. The question is what it intended by the category and this is clearly pointed out in the introduction that it is for civil parishes. If religious parishes where to be included, that line would not be there. After the rename, the nominator and others will probably need to be doing some cleanup. I'll try and fix some of the parenting, but I may not have time to do it all. DeleteCategory:Parishes of the Republic of Ireland by county. Note that where religious parishes exist, the existing categories may be recreated with a less ambiguous name.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: rename: The parent article forlornly states it is for
civil parishes, not religious ones.
Church of Ireland parishes were once the same as civil parishes, but have diverged over 150 years;
Roman Catholicism in Ireland has had different parishes since the
Penal Laws. Civil parishes are obsolete for most purposes and most people have no idea which one they live in, whereas quite a few are members of a Catholic or Anglican parish. In summary, "parish" does not by default mean "civil parish" in Ireland, so
WP:COMMONNAME applies. Some of the articles in subcategories do actually relate to current religious parishes rather than historical civil parishes (see e.g. in
Category:Parishes of County Dublin); these articles should be removed from the relevant categories when renamed.
jnestorius(
talk)19:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Question. How many articles actually exist on civil parishes in either the 26-counties, and how many in the 6? I am leaning to oppose, because I think that this is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut: I don't recall ever encountering an article on a civil parish in the 26 counties., but since most of these categories are very sparsely populated, I think that the simplest solution for now is to keep all flavours of parish together. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
20:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)reply
I only found the category after discussion at
Talk:Civil parish#Ireland from
User:Hohenloh, who has been populating
Category:Civil parishes in Dublin. Keeping everything together strikes me as a bad idea. I agree the categories are little populated, but already the few articles that are there are so disparate that the category is uninformative. The civil parish category can be in an article about a village or locality which shares its name, and each county should ultimately have at a minimum a list-of-civil-parishes article as the 6-counties currently do. A good number of village articles could quickly be added to the categories once renamed. Do you envisage the current articles all having "(Church of Ireland parish)"-style disambiguators? I would question whether most catholic or anglican parishes are encyclopedic at all. A namechange would in addition disscourage a well-meaning parishioner from cluttering an article about a locality with information about Mass times. The religious details should be combined with the article about the parish church until the unlikely event that there is enough to refactor out. I think acting now while the problem affects few articles is better than waiting till the mess is larger. Doing nothing is the easiest solution for editors, but not the simplest for users.
jnestorius(
talk)06:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename. The outline suggested is the way it will have to be at some time in the future. It is probably overkill at the moment, but clearing the mess up now is going to be less work than later on. p.s.
Category:Parishes of County Meath does NOT need renaming - it is already correct.
Twiceuponatime (
talk)
09:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename. (and I hope I understand this correctly!) I'm approaching this from a historical perspective. "Civil parishes", which in effect were Church of Ireland parishes, was the denomination used for hundreds of years for local administration. This included churches, schools, fire brigades, alms-houses, widows-houses, orphanages, dispensaries, even hospitals and public buildings. They changed from time to time, splitting and uniting (which I've mentioned in every article I've dealt with). It's important to get this clear. Each civil parish had defined boundaries. I created the category Civil parishes in Dublin in order to clarify that the article related to the civil parish - Roman Catholic parishes were a different matter. In creating and re-working the articles on Dublin Church of Ireland/Civil parishes, I've tried to ensure that each article includes the elements that constituted a parish at that time: church, church history, church-yard (ie, cemetery), parish, parish history, parishioners, parish school and charities, plus some local history. I've still got about half a dozen articles to go to finish off Dublin, and BTW I'd appreciate feedback on this. Thanks,
Hohenloh + 10:41, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. After the further clarifications from Jnestorius and Hohenloh, I am leaning towards supporting the nomination, but I have some reservations: the civil parishes are a historical issue, but the current Roman Catholic parishes are more likely to be familiar to editors, simply because they are current, so I suggest that we need a little more discussion of how to categorise them. I also think we need badly more input. I see no sign of a notification to
WikiProject Ireland, so I will add that notice now ... and I suggest that this nomination should be relisted to allow further discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
11:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
If articles on denominational parishes exist, could they be referenced in the "See also" section of the Civil parish article (if most of the parish lies within the civil parish)?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Thinking about this again, it sounds like an ideal opportunity to do a logical "grand slam". Much work has been done on the "Baronies of Ireland" category. The next geographical division is the Civil Parish, which this proposal would address. The final part is the townland. Now this is currently sandwiched uncomfortably between the Baronise and County categories. More confusingly, there are categories like "Category:Townlands of County Tipperary". I think that this latter category should be abolished. It should instead flow in a logical geographical and administrative hierachy from greatest to least, that is, county, barony, civil parish and townland. This would involve the merging or re-location of several current categories. Thoughts anyone?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:52, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Let's do this one step at a time, please; the parenting of parishes and townlands can be examined separately from this decision on splitting the civil and religious parsishes. (However, note that baronies and the later rural districts are historical divisions, whereas townlands are still in use. It would make no sense to have to go through a defunct layer to navigate between two current layers). --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:51, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't agree about the defunct status of baronies. But this argument has been well played out on the discussion page. Can we at least agree to do no damage that would prevent a later exercise along the lines i suggested above? That is, leave open the possibliity at a later date of having a serious re-organisation of the categoeies (using the hierarchy suggested above) while not impeding the current proposed change?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
13:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep. I've changed my mind on the matter. Reason # 1 - The parishes of the Catholic Church in Ireland are generally unrelated to civil parishes. As the majority religion, most people would have no common basis of understanding. Even in the Church of Ireland, the wholesale amalgamation of parishes and indeed dioceses have caused that community memory of former times to wanne. Reason # 2 - their original use in local taxation was superceded by District Electoral Divisions by the mid-nineteenth century. Reason # 3 - there is no reliable on-line source that can trace, to the level of detail that would be necessary, the boundary of a civil parish. The knowledge has been lost, let's acknowledge it. And you know what, it was never that important anyway. They were not so much units of local administration as weapons in a larger battle of cultural warfare between the conqueror and the conquered. Let's get over it. Let the re-categorisations continue along county and denominational lines.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Novotel Hotels Hong Kong
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Category:Teochew Malaysians
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The result of the discussion was:rename; in light of the lack of objections once this was moved from speedy, I think it's safe to rename. The extra time and exposure has served its purpose. I understand the anon's objection in the speedy section as being merely an objection to the use of the speedy procedure and not as an objection to the proposal as such.Good Ol’factory(talk)03:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Object this needs a CFD, since there is no
Chaoshanese article, but there is a
Teochew dialect article. If this is categorization by linguistic group, it's name is correct.
65.94.253.16 (
talk) 05:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Songs written by Otis Williams (Temptations)
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Category:Maldivian national football teams
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Category that cannot expand. If if it was Maldavian national sporting teams it would be different. At least that's my intepretation.
Richhoncho (
talk)
19:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Willemstad, Netherlands Antilles
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. It is essentially the same as
Category:People from Curaçao, as, according to Wikipedia, 125,000 of Curacao's 151,000 inhabitants live in Willemstad. It seems that most to all articles are already in
Category:People from Curaçao, which is why I've nominated it for deletion instead of merging.-
TM22:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Life after death
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Category:Turkish-speaking countries and territories
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Nominator's rationale: The only "Turkish-speaking" country in this category is Turkey. The creator's intent was probably to create a category to list the countries/territories where Turkic languages are spoken, so another option is to rename this category.—
Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (
yo?); April 15, 2010; 14:51 (UTC)
Delete - it's impossible to determine which countries should go in this category because Turkish is probably spoken by at least a person or two in every country. I wouldn't support renaming the category either as the problem would still be the same.
Laurent (
talk)
17:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music charts
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Category:European Alpine regions
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. At a mimimum, having European in the name seems redundant, but it just doesn't seem like a necessary addition to what's already in the various sub-cats of
Category:Alps. For example, the only article currently in this cat,
Rhône-Alpes, gets to cat:Alps via
Category:Alpine countries, at the minimum. Also, I don't believe there's an article that clearly defines what is meant by "Regions that surround the Alpine Mountain" (at least beyond what's covered at
Alps), which seems to make this cat overly vague. From the same editor that brought us
this problematic cat.
76.121.3.85 (
talk)
07:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:International Soccer League (1960-1965)
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Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants of 2001
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. These performers are well covered in the article and the year in which they were an entrant is not notable for most if not all of these. If this passes, then a mass nomination for the remaining categories will need to made. Note well that some of the members here are listed in multiple related categories adding to category clutter on the article pages.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
01:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment - delete makes the extra claim that being a Eurovision Song Contest entrant is not defining, which I would dispute as it is an annual hullabaloo which goes on for months. Upmerge to
Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants makes the claim that year is not defining, but produces an enormous category. [see below] It is not usual to appear more than say twice in Eurovision, so clutter is not unbounded ...
Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by nationality would be another way to go, but not incompatible with 'by year'. (
Elena Paparizou is in 2 of these.) My own view is that 'Eurovision Song Contest entrant' is defining and subcatting by year is a sensible scheme.
Occuli (
talk)
09:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:RationalWikians
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on
RationalWiki, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who contribute to the Club Penguin Wikis
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on the
Club Penguin Wiki, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who contribute to Memory Gamma
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on the
Memory Gamma, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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I don't have a problem with including Danny Huston - article says he is of part 'Anglo-Iranian' descent and 'Fooian descent' means either descendant of the country or the ethnicity 'Fooia'.
Mayumashu (
talk)
17:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Parishes of Ireland
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename per nom and cleanup. The question is what it intended by the category and this is clearly pointed out in the introduction that it is for civil parishes. If religious parishes where to be included, that line would not be there. After the rename, the nominator and others will probably need to be doing some cleanup. I'll try and fix some of the parenting, but I may not have time to do it all. DeleteCategory:Parishes of the Republic of Ireland by county. Note that where religious parishes exist, the existing categories may be recreated with a less ambiguous name.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
23:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: rename: The parent article forlornly states it is for
civil parishes, not religious ones.
Church of Ireland parishes were once the same as civil parishes, but have diverged over 150 years;
Roman Catholicism in Ireland has had different parishes since the
Penal Laws. Civil parishes are obsolete for most purposes and most people have no idea which one they live in, whereas quite a few are members of a Catholic or Anglican parish. In summary, "parish" does not by default mean "civil parish" in Ireland, so
WP:COMMONNAME applies. Some of the articles in subcategories do actually relate to current religious parishes rather than historical civil parishes (see e.g. in
Category:Parishes of County Dublin); these articles should be removed from the relevant categories when renamed.
jnestorius(
talk)19:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Question. How many articles actually exist on civil parishes in either the 26-counties, and how many in the 6? I am leaning to oppose, because I think that this is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut: I don't recall ever encountering an article on a civil parish in the 26 counties., but since most of these categories are very sparsely populated, I think that the simplest solution for now is to keep all flavours of parish together. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
20:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)reply
I only found the category after discussion at
Talk:Civil parish#Ireland from
User:Hohenloh, who has been populating
Category:Civil parishes in Dublin. Keeping everything together strikes me as a bad idea. I agree the categories are little populated, but already the few articles that are there are so disparate that the category is uninformative. The civil parish category can be in an article about a village or locality which shares its name, and each county should ultimately have at a minimum a list-of-civil-parishes article as the 6-counties currently do. A good number of village articles could quickly be added to the categories once renamed. Do you envisage the current articles all having "(Church of Ireland parish)"-style disambiguators? I would question whether most catholic or anglican parishes are encyclopedic at all. A namechange would in addition disscourage a well-meaning parishioner from cluttering an article about a locality with information about Mass times. The religious details should be combined with the article about the parish church until the unlikely event that there is enough to refactor out. I think acting now while the problem affects few articles is better than waiting till the mess is larger. Doing nothing is the easiest solution for editors, but not the simplest for users.
jnestorius(
talk)06:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename. The outline suggested is the way it will have to be at some time in the future. It is probably overkill at the moment, but clearing the mess up now is going to be less work than later on. p.s.
Category:Parishes of County Meath does NOT need renaming - it is already correct.
Twiceuponatime (
talk)
09:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Rename. (and I hope I understand this correctly!) I'm approaching this from a historical perspective. "Civil parishes", which in effect were Church of Ireland parishes, was the denomination used for hundreds of years for local administration. This included churches, schools, fire brigades, alms-houses, widows-houses, orphanages, dispensaries, even hospitals and public buildings. They changed from time to time, splitting and uniting (which I've mentioned in every article I've dealt with). It's important to get this clear. Each civil parish had defined boundaries. I created the category Civil parishes in Dublin in order to clarify that the article related to the civil parish - Roman Catholic parishes were a different matter. In creating and re-working the articles on Dublin Church of Ireland/Civil parishes, I've tried to ensure that each article includes the elements that constituted a parish at that time: church, church history, church-yard (ie, cemetery), parish, parish history, parishioners, parish school and charities, plus some local history. I've still got about half a dozen articles to go to finish off Dublin, and BTW I'd appreciate feedback on this. Thanks,
Hohenloh + 10:41, 11 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. After the further clarifications from Jnestorius and Hohenloh, I am leaning towards supporting the nomination, but I have some reservations: the civil parishes are a historical issue, but the current Roman Catholic parishes are more likely to be familiar to editors, simply because they are current, so I suggest that we need a little more discussion of how to categorise them. I also think we need badly more input. I see no sign of a notification to
WikiProject Ireland, so I will add that notice now ... and I suggest that this nomination should be relisted to allow further discussion. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
11:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
If articles on denominational parishes exist, could they be referenced in the "See also" section of the Civil parish article (if most of the parish lies within the civil parish)?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:28, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Thinking about this again, it sounds like an ideal opportunity to do a logical "grand slam". Much work has been done on the "Baronies of Ireland" category. The next geographical division is the Civil Parish, which this proposal would address. The final part is the townland. Now this is currently sandwiched uncomfortably between the Baronise and County categories. More confusingly, there are categories like "Category:Townlands of County Tipperary". I think that this latter category should be abolished. It should instead flow in a logical geographical and administrative hierachy from greatest to least, that is, county, barony, civil parish and townland. This would involve the merging or re-location of several current categories. Thoughts anyone?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:52, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Let's do this one step at a time, please; the parenting of parishes and townlands can be examined separately from this decision on splitting the civil and religious parsishes. (However, note that baronies and the later rural districts are historical divisions, whereas townlands are still in use. It would make no sense to have to go through a defunct layer to navigate between two current layers). --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:51, 21 March 2010 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't agree about the defunct status of baronies. But this argument has been well played out on the discussion page. Can we at least agree to do no damage that would prevent a later exercise along the lines i suggested above? That is, leave open the possibliity at a later date of having a serious re-organisation of the categoeies (using the hierarchy suggested above) while not impeding the current proposed change?
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
13:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Keep. I've changed my mind on the matter. Reason # 1 - The parishes of the Catholic Church in Ireland are generally unrelated to civil parishes. As the majority religion, most people would have no common basis of understanding. Even in the Church of Ireland, the wholesale amalgamation of parishes and indeed dioceses have caused that community memory of former times to wanne. Reason # 2 - their original use in local taxation was superceded by District Electoral Divisions by the mid-nineteenth century. Reason # 3 - there is no reliable on-line source that can trace, to the level of detail that would be necessary, the boundary of a civil parish. The knowledge has been lost, let's acknowledge it. And you know what, it was never that important anyway. They were not so much units of local administration as weapons in a larger battle of cultural warfare between the conqueror and the conquered. Let's get over it. Let the re-categorisations continue along county and denominational lines.
Laurel Lodged (
talk)
20:12, 23 March 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Novotel Hotels Hong Kong
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Category:Teochew Malaysians
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The result of the discussion was:rename; in light of the lack of objections once this was moved from speedy, I think it's safe to rename. The extra time and exposure has served its purpose. I understand the anon's objection in the speedy section as being merely an objection to the use of the speedy procedure and not as an objection to the proposal as such.Good Ol’factory(talk)03:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Object this needs a CFD, since there is no
Chaoshanese article, but there is a
Teochew dialect article. If this is categorization by linguistic group, it's name is correct.
65.94.253.16 (
talk) 05:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Songs written by Otis Williams (Temptations)
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Category:Maldivian national football teams
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Category that cannot expand. If if it was Maldavian national sporting teams it would be different. At least that's my intepretation.
Richhoncho (
talk)
19:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Willemstad, Netherlands Antilles
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. It is essentially the same as
Category:People from Curaçao, as, according to Wikipedia, 125,000 of Curacao's 151,000 inhabitants live in Willemstad. It seems that most to all articles are already in
Category:People from Curaçao, which is why I've nominated it for deletion instead of merging.-
TM22:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Life after death
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Category:Turkish-speaking countries and territories
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Nominator's rationale: The only "Turkish-speaking" country in this category is Turkey. The creator's intent was probably to create a category to list the countries/territories where Turkic languages are spoken, so another option is to rename this category.—
Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (
yo?); April 15, 2010; 14:51 (UTC)
Delete - it's impossible to determine which countries should go in this category because Turkish is probably spoken by at least a person or two in every country. I wouldn't support renaming the category either as the problem would still be the same.
Laurent (
talk)
17:14, 18 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Music charts
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Category:European Alpine regions
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. At a mimimum, having European in the name seems redundant, but it just doesn't seem like a necessary addition to what's already in the various sub-cats of
Category:Alps. For example, the only article currently in this cat,
Rhône-Alpes, gets to cat:Alps via
Category:Alpine countries, at the minimum. Also, I don't believe there's an article that clearly defines what is meant by "Regions that surround the Alpine Mountain" (at least beyond what's covered at
Alps), which seems to make this cat overly vague. From the same editor that brought us
this problematic cat.
76.121.3.85 (
talk)
07:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:International Soccer League (1960-1965)
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Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants of 2001
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. These performers are well covered in the article and the year in which they were an entrant is not notable for most if not all of these. If this passes, then a mass nomination for the remaining categories will need to made. Note well that some of the members here are listed in multiple related categories adding to category clutter on the article pages.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
01:37, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment - delete makes the extra claim that being a Eurovision Song Contest entrant is not defining, which I would dispute as it is an annual hullabaloo which goes on for months. Upmerge to
Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants makes the claim that year is not defining, but produces an enormous category. [see below] It is not usual to appear more than say twice in Eurovision, so clutter is not unbounded ...
Category:Eurovision Song Contest entrants by nationality would be another way to go, but not incompatible with 'by year'. (
Elena Paparizou is in 2 of these.) My own view is that 'Eurovision Song Contest entrant' is defining and subcatting by year is a sensible scheme.
Occuli (
talk)
09:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:RationalWikians
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on
RationalWiki, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who contribute to the Club Penguin Wikis
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on the
Club Penguin Wiki, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Wikipedians who contribute to Memory Gamma
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Nominator's rationale: Delete - No article on the
Memory Gamma, so a user category can't facilitate collaboration. Allowing a category for members of every non-notable wiki would open the door for thousands of similar categories, so we need to limit this to ones that have articles.
VegaDark (
talk)
01:29, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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