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Category:National Futsal League
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Category:Luparense C5
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Cars (film)
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Category:Vancouver Academy of Music
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No, actually, a school does not typically get its own dedicated category just to link alumni and faculty subcategories to each other — dedicated eponymous categories are only used if there are other aspects of the school that have distinct articles of their own too, such as the campus radio station, the newspaper, individual buildings, departments, faculties, one or more academic publishing houses, and on and so forth. If all we have is what's in this category right now (i.e. article, faculty cat, alumni cat and nothing else), then a dedicated category is not "the typical categorization scheme", but is unnecessary
WP:OCAT.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Football (soccer) informal variants
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Nominator's rationale: Between them, these two categories contain only about 30 pages. There is good reason to have a separate category system for established/popular variants of association football such as
indoor soccer, but this split between "variants" (presumably, "formal variants"?) and "informal variants" does not aid navigation and seems to be unnecessary. (Category creator not notified because: inactive since 2007) -- Black Falcon(
talk)20:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Privately owned Government companies in India
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Comment -- I know little of the subject, and agree that we have an oxymoron, but I think that BHG (in Ireland) and me (in England) should be very wary of seeking to impose our views of what can exist on a land as complex as India. I would support
Twiceuponatime's suggestion or
Category:Privately-run Government companies in India, both of which seem to fit the definition in the headnote better than the present title.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Surabaya, East Java
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Category:The great Luke Ski albums
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Rename per nom. It should certainly match the parent article. If anyone wants to discuss the parent article name that's a seperate issue
Cls14 (
talk)
11:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Greater London
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Is it necessary ? This category, created some hours ago, includes by now casual articles reguarding London included with HotCat by
its author. Looking at
his contribs, i note a massive redundant double-categorisation using HotCat about arguments still included in their subcategories (ex:
Belfast Airport is
here, it is not necessary to categorize it
here too). Dэя-
Бøяg --
18:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete (most likely speedy) per
WP:LONDONNAMES#Categories We use London instead of Greater London. There is no difference between the two in terms of area. Everything that has been placed in this category (and it is a pretty random collection) is already in subcategory of
Category:London.
MRSC (
talk)
18:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship drivers
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Nominator's rationale: I am proposing a merge as these two series are literally the same (organisation, rules, almost everything), only branding and an unsucessful attempt to internationalise the series that makes them appear different when nothing to suggests that they are. I don't personally know why there is a need for two different categories when one is necessary.
Donnie Park (
talk)
21:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Further comment: Having these two separate categories is like having a separate categories for the
primary NASCAR series (Grand National, Winston Cup, Nextel Cup and Sprint Cup)...same series, same rules, different names.
Donnie Park (
talk)
14:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Political organizations based in Israel
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Category:Lakes of the Pirin
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Nominator's rationale: the reverse move was recently made. However,
Pirin is a region, so doesn't have an article. I can't find any trace of a discussion of this move in the archives.
Preslav (
talk)
08:38, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment –
Pirin includes the sentence "The largest lake in Pirin" so the nom might well have a point. I can't find any trace of a discussion either although Good Ol'factory is mentioned.
Occuli (
talk)
09:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. For the speedy "discussion", see
[1],
[2],
[3]. Judging by
Pirin, we figured it was a mountain range. "Lakes of FOO" is a convention (not "in"), so we figured "Lakes of the Pirin" would be roughly equivalent to "Lakes of the Alps", etc. If it's not a mountain range, then we have a broader problem, because
Pirin says it is a mountain range. If it's a "region", then "Lakes of Pirin" is correct. "Lakes in Pirin" is incorrect according to the naming convention for landforms, which is why it was nominated for a rename in the first place.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Pirin is a mountain range, but "The Pirin" sounds odd to me. Maybe it's related to the fact that it doesn't get an article in Bulgarian, as the only other examples I can think of are also Bulgarian mountain ranges (
Rila,
Vitosha and
Jakupica in nearby Macedonia, which has a closely related language). Note that in none of these articles, the noun gets an article.
Category:Lakes of Pirin is the best according to me.
Preslav (
talk)
14:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm not 100% positive, but am I correct in stating that the Hungarian language does not use articles such as "the" and "a" with nouns? Many Eastern European languages do not, so when speakers of these languages use English, adding "the" or "a" to nouns often sounds wrong to their ears. But in English, if we are talking about a mountain range, "of Pirin" would be as odd-sounding as saying "of Alps" instead or "of the Alps", or to take a more common example—"of Czech Republic" rather than "of the Czech Republic" or "of Soviet Union" rather than "of the Soviet Union". It's a common language barrier—to many Eastern Europeans, leaving out the "the" always sounds better, but it's often incorrect in English usage.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Bulgarian is one of two Slavic languages (the other being Macedonian) that has definite articles. It's not at all related to Hungarian. My own native language is Dutch, which has the same use of articles as English. I've never seen "the Pirin" unless it's followed by a noun or another adjective.
Preslav (
talk)
10:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I meant to write "Bulgarian", which is what is relevant here. (Hungarian, as we all know, is an extraterrestrial language and unrelated to any in Europe.) I would note that the lede of
Pirin refers to "The Pirin Mountains" and "the Pirin National Park". If you've never seen "the Pirin" used in English, look at some of Black Falcon's google search results below: there are many. See, e.g.,
here.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)reply
To what extent does the Pirin region overlap with the Pirin Mountains? Do they occupy the same area? Category:Pirin is in
Category:Mountain ranges of Bulgaria, so I interpret the title of this category to mean Lakes of the Pirin Mountains or Lakes of the Pirin mountain range. With this meaning, the naming of
Category:Lakes of the Pirin corresponds to that of similar categories for mountain ranges, such as
Category:Lakes of the Alps. Ascertaining common usage outside of Wikipedia is difficult because of the fact that "Pirin" can refer to the mountain range and to the national park (see
Pirin National Park), where any search for "
of Pirin" brings up results with "of Pirin National Park" and any search for "
of the Pirin" brings up results with "of the Pirin Mountains" and "of the Pirin range". Examples to support both usages—with the definite article (
[4]) and without (
[5])—can be found in reliable sources. -- Black Falcon(
talk)17:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
As a native Bulgarian, I've never heard of a region called Pirin that is anything different from the Pirin Mountains, nor have I ever seen the name "Pirin" used with a definite article in English or Bulgarian. It should be either "Lakes in Pirin" or "Lakes of Pirin", depending on what is more commonly used for other mountain ranges. Todor→Bozhinov10:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that provision is on point, since the local usage does not use "Lakes of Pirin" or "Lakes of the Pirin", because both are English phrases. The provision you refer to is what to call places, as when there are varying names for a place, as with Moscow vs. Moskva, Vienna vs. Wien, etc. It would address what we call "Pirin", but not how we use an English phrase to refer to features of (the) Pirin.
Good Ol’factory(talk)08:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:CIS Men's Soccer Championship
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Category:Video game companies named after film production companies
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Category:CONCACAF U-20 Championship
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Category:South American Under 17 Championship
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Category:People from Wanganui
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. The government of New Zealand recently announced that the place usually referred to as
Wanganui could now correctly be referred to by that name or by the less-bastardised-Maori
Whanganui. This has been controversial, and the article was moved to
Whanganui a few months ago, and the matter continued to be debated at
Talk:Whanganui until it petered out in January. I don't have a strong opinion on which WP should use—if I had to guess, I would say
Wanganui is probably still the most common name. But I do think we should have the category name in this case match whatever the spelling of the article is, with a redirect on the other spelling.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Postpone. The executive powers of the Government of New Zealand do not include "telling Wikipedia how to name its articles". It would appear that our article on the place is at the wrong title, and that the form without the H is still the
WP:COMMONNAME. There are two other related moves under discussion at the moment, so I would suggest awaiting the outcomes of those before deciding anything here.
81.111.114.131 (
talk)
15:40, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Note: The proposal to move "
Whanganui back to Wanganui was begun after this proposal was made. I think it's a good idea to wait for the move proposal on the article to be resolved one way or the other, and then to make this category match whatever the article discussion results in. For the article move discussion, see
Talk:Whanganui#Requested_move. I'm fine if this discussion remains open until that discussion is closed.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:National Futsal League
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Category:Luparense C5
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Cars (film)
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Category:Vancouver Academy of Music
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No, actually, a school does not typically get its own dedicated category just to link alumni and faculty subcategories to each other — dedicated eponymous categories are only used if there are other aspects of the school that have distinct articles of their own too, such as the campus radio station, the newspaper, individual buildings, departments, faculties, one or more academic publishing houses, and on and so forth. If all we have is what's in this category right now (i.e. article, faculty cat, alumni cat and nothing else), then a dedicated category is not "the typical categorization scheme", but is unnecessary
WP:OCAT.
Bearcat (
talk)
00:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Football (soccer) informal variants
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Nominator's rationale: Between them, these two categories contain only about 30 pages. There is good reason to have a separate category system for established/popular variants of association football such as
indoor soccer, but this split between "variants" (presumably, "formal variants"?) and "informal variants" does not aid navigation and seems to be unnecessary. (Category creator not notified because: inactive since 2007) -- Black Falcon(
talk)20:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Privately owned Government companies in India
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Comment -- I know little of the subject, and agree that we have an oxymoron, but I think that BHG (in Ireland) and me (in England) should be very wary of seeking to impose our views of what can exist on a land as complex as India. I would support
Twiceuponatime's suggestion or
Category:Privately-run Government companies in India, both of which seem to fit the definition in the headnote better than the present title.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
14:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:People from Surabaya, East Java
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Category:The great Luke Ski albums
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Rename per nom. It should certainly match the parent article. If anyone wants to discuss the parent article name that's a seperate issue
Cls14 (
talk)
11:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Greater London
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Is it necessary ? This category, created some hours ago, includes by now casual articles reguarding London included with HotCat by
its author. Looking at
his contribs, i note a massive redundant double-categorisation using HotCat about arguments still included in their subcategories (ex:
Belfast Airport is
here, it is not necessary to categorize it
here too). Dэя-
Бøяg --
18:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Delete (most likely speedy) per
WP:LONDONNAMES#Categories We use London instead of Greater London. There is no difference between the two in terms of area. Everything that has been placed in this category (and it is a pretty random collection) is already in subcategory of
Category:London.
MRSC (
talk)
18:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:All-Japan Grand Touring Car Championship drivers
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Nominator's rationale: I am proposing a merge as these two series are literally the same (organisation, rules, almost everything), only branding and an unsucessful attempt to internationalise the series that makes them appear different when nothing to suggests that they are. I don't personally know why there is a need for two different categories when one is necessary.
Donnie Park (
talk)
21:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)reply
Further comment: Having these two separate categories is like having a separate categories for the
primary NASCAR series (Grand National, Winston Cup, Nextel Cup and Sprint Cup)...same series, same rules, different names.
Donnie Park (
talk)
14:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:Political organizations based in Israel
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Category:Lakes of the Pirin
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Nominator's rationale: the reverse move was recently made. However,
Pirin is a region, so doesn't have an article. I can't find any trace of a discussion of this move in the archives.
Preslav (
talk)
08:38, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment –
Pirin includes the sentence "The largest lake in Pirin" so the nom might well have a point. I can't find any trace of a discussion either although Good Ol'factory is mentioned.
Occuli (
talk)
09:04, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Comment. For the speedy "discussion", see
[1],
[2],
[3]. Judging by
Pirin, we figured it was a mountain range. "Lakes of FOO" is a convention (not "in"), so we figured "Lakes of the Pirin" would be roughly equivalent to "Lakes of the Alps", etc. If it's not a mountain range, then we have a broader problem, because
Pirin says it is a mountain range. If it's a "region", then "Lakes of Pirin" is correct. "Lakes in Pirin" is incorrect according to the naming convention for landforms, which is why it was nominated for a rename in the first place.
Good Ol’factory(talk)09:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Pirin is a mountain range, but "The Pirin" sounds odd to me. Maybe it's related to the fact that it doesn't get an article in Bulgarian, as the only other examples I can think of are also Bulgarian mountain ranges (
Rila,
Vitosha and
Jakupica in nearby Macedonia, which has a closely related language). Note that in none of these articles, the noun gets an article.
Category:Lakes of Pirin is the best according to me.
Preslav (
talk)
14:33, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm not 100% positive, but am I correct in stating that the Hungarian language does not use articles such as "the" and "a" with nouns? Many Eastern European languages do not, so when speakers of these languages use English, adding "the" or "a" to nouns often sounds wrong to their ears. But in English, if we are talking about a mountain range, "of Pirin" would be as odd-sounding as saying "of Alps" instead or "of the Alps", or to take a more common example—"of Czech Republic" rather than "of the Czech Republic" or "of Soviet Union" rather than "of the Soviet Union". It's a common language barrier—to many Eastern Europeans, leaving out the "the" always sounds better, but it's often incorrect in English usage.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Bulgarian is one of two Slavic languages (the other being Macedonian) that has definite articles. It's not at all related to Hungarian. My own native language is Dutch, which has the same use of articles as English. I've never seen "the Pirin" unless it's followed by a noun or another adjective.
Preslav (
talk)
10:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I meant to write "Bulgarian", which is what is relevant here. (Hungarian, as we all know, is an extraterrestrial language and unrelated to any in Europe.) I would note that the lede of
Pirin refers to "The Pirin Mountains" and "the Pirin National Park". If you've never seen "the Pirin" used in English, look at some of Black Falcon's google search results below: there are many. See, e.g.,
here.
Good Ol’factory(talk)01:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)reply
To what extent does the Pirin region overlap with the Pirin Mountains? Do they occupy the same area? Category:Pirin is in
Category:Mountain ranges of Bulgaria, so I interpret the title of this category to mean Lakes of the Pirin Mountains or Lakes of the Pirin mountain range. With this meaning, the naming of
Category:Lakes of the Pirin corresponds to that of similar categories for mountain ranges, such as
Category:Lakes of the Alps. Ascertaining common usage outside of Wikipedia is difficult because of the fact that "Pirin" can refer to the mountain range and to the national park (see
Pirin National Park), where any search for "
of Pirin" brings up results with "of Pirin National Park" and any search for "
of the Pirin" brings up results with "of the Pirin Mountains" and "of the Pirin range". Examples to support both usages—with the definite article (
[4]) and without (
[5])—can be found in reliable sources. -- Black Falcon(
talk)17:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
As a native Bulgarian, I've never heard of a region called Pirin that is anything different from the Pirin Mountains, nor have I ever seen the name "Pirin" used with a definite article in English or Bulgarian. It should be either "Lakes in Pirin" or "Lakes of Pirin", depending on what is more commonly used for other mountain ranges. Todor→Bozhinov10:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure that provision is on point, since the local usage does not use "Lakes of Pirin" or "Lakes of the Pirin", because both are English phrases. The provision you refer to is what to call places, as when there are varying names for a place, as with Moscow vs. Moskva, Vienna vs. Wien, etc. It would address what we call "Pirin", but not how we use an English phrase to refer to features of (the) Pirin.
Good Ol’factory(talk)08:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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Category:CIS Men's Soccer Championship
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Category:Video game companies named after film production companies
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Category:CONCACAF U-20 Championship
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Category:South American Under 17 Championship
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Category:People from Wanganui
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. The government of New Zealand recently announced that the place usually referred to as
Wanganui could now correctly be referred to by that name or by the less-bastardised-Maori
Whanganui. This has been controversial, and the article was moved to
Whanganui a few months ago, and the matter continued to be debated at
Talk:Whanganui until it petered out in January. I don't have a strong opinion on which WP should use—if I had to guess, I would say
Wanganui is probably still the most common name. But I do think we should have the category name in this case match whatever the spelling of the article is, with a redirect on the other spelling.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Postpone. The executive powers of the Government of New Zealand do not include "telling Wikipedia how to name its articles". It would appear that our article on the place is at the wrong title, and that the form without the H is still the
WP:COMMONNAME. There are two other related moves under discussion at the moment, so I would suggest awaiting the outcomes of those before deciding anything here.
81.111.114.131 (
talk)
15:40, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Note: The proposal to move "
Whanganui back to Wanganui was begun after this proposal was made. I think it's a good idea to wait for the move proposal on the article to be resolved one way or the other, and then to make this category match whatever the article discussion results in. For the article move discussion, see
Talk:Whanganui#Requested_move. I'm fine if this discussion remains open until that discussion is closed.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)reply
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