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Nominator's rationale:Delete - re-creation of
previously deleted category, speedy tag removed with the false claim that the previous CFD is irrelevant. Reasons for deletion not addressed by the re-creation. Category was created by an editor who in his edit summary acknowledged he was re-creating a deleted category but re-created it without regard to that consensus anyway.
Otto4711 (
talk)
20:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep – I am surprised to hear that there is anything against "Foo characters" and this category is mainly a container category for presumably valid subcats.
Occuli (
talk)
20:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The reasoning behind the deletion of most of these categories is that they tend to collect articles on characters associated with the category subject and since characters associate with a lot of other characters they would wind up with a bunch of clutterful categories.
Otto4711 (
talk)
02:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
While 4 of the sub-cats may have a reason to be grouped together, including
Category:Anarky is a stretch. And honestly, this cat would be a case to have nil in the articles section. Based on the source material - comic book related articles - Foo characters or Foo related characters do tend to expand beyond a reasonable point. In the case of Batman, the potential pool covers any character that has appeared in any of the scores of Batman related comic book titles as well as any character that has been routinely paired with Batman. Roughly half, minimum, of the DC characters. I'm all for restricting what goes into these types of categories, and if this one cannot be paired down and held there, it should go. And Otto, an editor does have the right to recreate a category if they feel that either 1) consensus has changed or 2) the proposed use is sufficiently different or restricted from what was removed. This was recreated over a year after the original CfD and stood for just over a year before your speedy. While the edit summary removing the speedy is not quite correct - the old CfD is relevant - the intent is sound - consensus may have changed. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Can you point me to where the above re-creation criteria are listed, because I'm unfamiliar with them. Suggesting that any editor can re-create any category if they feel - without any supporting evidence - that consensus has changed seems like a really bad way to operate given that it takes 30 seconds to create a category and seven days to delete one.
Otto4711 (
talk)
10:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
{{Parent category}} - as well as the initial edit summary. The editor made a good faith effort to provide a navigation link for the list category and the TV series character categories. The rub comes in with 7 of the articles that have been added to the category. ("List of Batman Family enemies" would ideally just get rotated into Category: Lists of Batman characters.) And IIUC, the idea of speedy deletion related to categories is for cases where 1) the category was recently deleted or 2) an older deletion where similar categories are still being removed. Now, are we removing "Foo character" categories that are intended to just act as parents for list cats and tightly character cats? Also along those lines are we deleting categories that collect characters that have only appeared in that show? (And that may remove the reason this cat was recreated.) -
J Greb (
talk)
16:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
There are no other Foo character categories like this one of which I'm aware because they were all deleted around the same time this one was.
Otto4711 (
talk)
18:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Does that include character categories for TV shows and/or films? I ask because if those types of categories have been removed, then the 3 subs here need to be looked at. And keep in mind, character categories for comics tend to be messy since the characters are not necessarily restricted to only one series/title. Films and TV shows tend to have a more constrained list of articles, if a character list doesn't already exist. If lists are favored, and those three cats wind up going away, there is no reason for a parent category for the franchise to exist. -
J Greb (
talk)
19:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I'm not suggesting deleting any of the existing sub-categories. Categories for the characters within a specific film or TV show are well established and clearly appropriate for navigational purposes.
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep A well-populated structure that organizes a productively large group of articles and subcategories that are unified by this defining characteristic. Kudos to whoever took the bold step of recreating a category that is a clearly effective aid to navigation, the true purpose of the category system, not the arbitrary imposition of antiquated consensus. Past consensus to keep has never been effective at stopping future repeated nominations until the desired result of deletion is achieved (only at which point is it demanded that consensus must be respected at any and all costs, damn the consequences to Wikipedia).
Alansohn (
talk)
00:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Actually... if categories are rapidly renommed after a keep, the nomming editor get told to quit gaming the system. Same thing for quick recreations after a delete result. And you may want to double check, but one of the core principle for Wikipedia is the idea of consensus. -
J Greb (
talk)
02:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
There is a world of difference between periodically re-nominating categories to see if consensus about them has changed and unilaterally re-creating categories without consultation. Editors also frequently comment in re-nominated categories that the category was nominated recently before and cite that as a reason to keep (as with
this recent rename CFD). Throwing around smear words and phrases like "antiquated consensus" and "damn the consequences" strikes me as
soapboxing and borderline
failure to assume the good faith of those who re-nominate a previously kept category to check whether
consensus has changed. Funny how ignoring consensus is A-OK in your book when you agree with its outcome (as with this re-creation) but an abomination when you don't.
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The previous cfd is not 'recent' at all (June 2007). 4 of the 5 subcats did not exist in June 2007 so the earlier cfd is barely relevant. We don't know which 26 articles (26 is mentioned in the discussion) were in the category in 2007 (unless we wish to sift through Cydebot's billion edits since then) but it is quite likely that they are now legitimately collected in the subcats (the 3 subcats under 'B' happen to contain 26 articles between them). (Most of the top-level articles now could be subcatted into 'Alternate versions of Batman characters'.)
Occuli (
talk)
16:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per
June 27 CfD. It seems to have been too messy in the past. While it may not be that messy yet, there is still zero reasons given as to why this will not happen again if it happen before. Carlaude:Talk04:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't know if we need that hair-splitting nightmare. It runs up against "Define a 'Batman comic'.". "Is that just Batman or any title Batman is generally associated with?", "Does that include characters from from strips not associated with Batman published in comics associated Batman?" (Detective Comics is considered a "Batman" title but has been an anthology at time with non-Batman related strips.) "What about character associated with Batman introduced for 1 or 2 stories in a comic not associated with Batman?", and so on. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Anarky
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale:Delete - small eponymous category with little or no growth potential. Contents are interlinked through text and if desired a template can be created.
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep having no "growth potential" is a now a ground for a category not existing at all? Also, just because a list and template may exist doesn't mean that a category should be deleted!
ninety:
one19:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Erm, no. It says small by definition, and this is not in the same vein as the examples given. Deleting this category wouldn't serve any kind of purpose whatsoever; it's is deletion for deletion's sake. (I feel an essay coming on!)
ninety:
one20:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Not quite... A category should be a navigation tool in most cases. Looking at the articles housed here, all three of them should be fairly well interlinked. Those linkages make a category unnecessary. Having it feels more a kin to having a cat for the sake of having a cat. And yes, the category fits the "small" concept. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - as the editor who created this category, I think an explanation is an order. I created it some months ago, after it was announced that the character would return to publication following a multi-year-long period of obscurity, and that the appearance would be a major event. I anticipated that the storyline would generate enough buzz that it would become notable in its own right, and another Anarky related article would be created. I also foresaw the need to create categories for other Batman villains; most notably the Joker. Moving on to other projects, I didn't really follow up with my intention of turning this category into a mere one among many to fall under a "Batman family enemies" category. It has also become apparent that I overestimated how important the character would be following the Dec. '08 revamp. In creating it, I largely acted prematurely. I won't disagree with anyone who tries to delete it now. --
Cast (
talk)
04:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:2009 Candidate for Manhattan Distract Attorney
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Overcategorization; we don't have transient categories of candidates for every political office in the world. If kept, at least rename, since the initial editor must have been "distract"ed when typing the title.
R'n'B (
call me Russ)
19:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete A rare example where overcategorization is a relevant issue. If kept, I also assume that we should pluralize the title. If there were only one candidate I would also agree that WP:OC#SMALL issues might be legitimate, as well.
Alansohn (
talk)
00:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator, else rename per nominator.
Debresser (
talk)
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Category:Half-blind people
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The result of the discussion was:Delete. This was a complicated discussion with good arguments on both sides, so I'll expand a little.
The concerns about the term "half blind" being insulting and ambiguous and having no objective definition could be solved by renaming the category to a more correct name, such as
Category:Partially sighted people or
Category:People with one functional eye. However, the issue about half-blindness not being a "defining characteristic" has not been substantially addressed by those advocating keep, and it would remain a problem even if the category was renamed to one of the proposed names. Note that categories should be based on "
essential, 'defining' features of article subjects". There are also concerns about the proposed alternative names like "partially sighted" and "partially blind" lacking an objective definition. In my view both the numbers and the strength of arguments are in favour of deletion as opposed to renaming the category.
Jafeluv (
talk)
21:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)reply
Also are they to be labeled half blind or half seeing? Labeling people like this is similar to labeling them as religious, we really need either a doctors statement or a statement from the subject that they themselves consider that they are half blind.
Off2riorob (
talk)
18:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment nonsensical reasoning from nom: The status of someone's sight can be determined from cited facts from their article. Using your logic, every category that pertains to a physical characteristic of a living person would be deleted for vague "BLP issues". And we don't normally use self-published sources - I fail to see why they would be required for this over any other type of statement?
ninety:
one19:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep The nomination makes no sense. Categories do not need to be cited; their use on a particular page does. As far as I can tell, this began at
Gordon Brown, where the verified text says he lost all the vision in one eye while at university. -
Rrius (
talk)
19:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete The category is vague and ill-defined. It's being used at
Gordon Brown and
Horatio Nelson to mean "people who are blind in one eye", and could be replaced with a more accurate category with that name. For people who are partially blind in both eyes, "people who are partially blind" would be a much better category, removing arguments about whether someone is half-blind or three-quarters-blind etc. "half-blind" also carries slang overtones that we don't need.
DJ Clayworth (
talk)
19:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Calling someone half-blind is generally considered an insult, so it is a really inappropriate category to use in BLPs. Even as a medical category it is badly defined: Is someone with perfect vision in one eye and 2% vision in the other half-blind? Someone with 50% vision in each eye? Someone who congenitally only has one (perfectly good) eye? Someone who lost an eye in an accident but has full sight in the other? As for having a category of "people blind in one eye", I am not in favour of creating such a category, or similar categories. --JN46621:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per Otto4711. In some sense, color blind is considered half-blind. The category seems to be created for the British prime minister. Bad faith creation, so delete.--
Caspian blue21:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia has featured lists about people with medical conditions (epilepsy, HIV, brain tumors). Why would categories be less encyclopedic? Durova32021:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete. "Half-blind" is ambiguous. If "one functional eye" is meant, how is this defining? Would it include people who lost vision in one eye in old age? Why not? Medical categories should be reserved for those with conditions that truly define who they are (a controversial statement, yes—but true in this context, IMO).
Good Ol’factory(talk)02:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Agree that "partially sighted" is the commonly used term (it just occurred to me, 24 hours later, but you got there first). However, this too needs some definite criteria to be a useful category. --JN46617:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Which is not the same as being blind in one eye. Lacking a better proposal, I'm leaning delete as ambiguous and probably not defining or if defining being a maintenance nightmare to keep the category focused.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
Delete "People who have lost an eye" or "People who have worn an eyepatch", might be interesting categories, but this category does not appear to be capturing a defining characteristic.
Alansohn (
talk)
00:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Exactly what do you mean by "defining characteristic"? I think many perfectly valid categories would fail if you use those words in the way they are normally meant. Aren't categories meant to lump articles together so that someone interested in the topic may be able to find related articles? In the article
tinnitus, there are 51 sufferers listed. Would it be out of bounds to put them in a category called "people with tinnitus" or "people with auditory disorders" because tinnitus does not define them? -
Rrius (
talk)
02:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. Nom's rationale does not make sense. We are not doctors, true (well, actually he should speak for himself), but that does not prevent us from writing well-referenced and quite in-depth articles about specific diseases. By the same argument, we should then remove
Category:Jews and
Category:Christians because we are not... I don't know... theologists? Please... A less contentious name to avoid upsetting PC crybabies could be better, but half-blind sounds good to me.
123.218.161.148 (
talk)
01:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete since there is no objective definition of what half blind means. While we could limit it to people who have one functioning eye, is that defining? Does someone who has an accident and loses sight in one eye belong in a category for someone who lost sight in one eye from a disease or did damage to their eye?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
00:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment from nominator. I was looking back at this and all the comments and thought to have a look at the
Blindness article here, there is no mention in that article of half blindness, I totally agree with the people that have commented that the term half blind is difficult to define and vague. Try this, close one eye....what can you see? ... everything!...what you lose is your depth of vision, your spacial understanding, your sense of distance and the 3D aspects of vision that having two eyes working together to focus on a single point in front of you. The term half blind is derogatory and not a true medical condition, partially sighted would be the modern term.
Here is a link to a google search which brings up almost nothing, one slang defenition, "alcohol intoxicated. : Four cans of beer and she was half-blind." and a reference to the biblical def and of course wikipedia's catagory! .. and I found
this on a blog "SHOCK NEWS: GORDON BROWN DEAF AS WELL AS (HALF) BLIND" all in all a motley crue. Delete asap.
Off2riorob (
talk)
11:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. I'm cretator of this category. We should categolize biographies by medical condition. If my expression was'nt so good, Improving will make the settlement. I think the concept of this category is clear. If this category is deleted, which category does Mr. Nominator delete next? What categories are left? --
Paladin R.T. (
talk)
05:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename the -present title is confusing--I do not think most people would say that someone who has good function vision with only a single eye (losing only stereoscopic vision) would be described as half-blind. A person is half-blind is someone who can just barely see. DGG (
talk )
20:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. The purport of this category is distinct. Losing one eye's vision is declared in each page. Trival matters don't beget deletion. Nom shouldn't pose delate, but rename. --
Jun Nijo (
talk)
21:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The statement that "trivial matters don't beget deletion" directly contradicts the guideline on categorization
here. You can debate whether or not this is "trivial", but once it's acknowledged it is trivial, deletion is certainly begotten.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete. I was going to suggest this should be renamed to something like
Category:Partially sighted people, but thinking about it's just a bad idea for a category. Most people end up with poor eyesight if they live long enough, so such a category would include far too many people; it's non-defining. Even if this is meant as 'people lacking sight in one eye', I don't see that as significant enough that it needs a category.
Robofish (
talk)
01:18, 4 October 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Canadian male basketball players
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Keep as an emerging branch of the tree for sports. Women and men compete separately (in most sports - equestrian would be one exception) and our catting should reflect this reality.
Mayumashu (
talk)
22:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
It is reflected by having a subcat (sometimes controversial, such as 'pool players') for females (or for males if the sport/profession is predominantly female, such as 'models').
Occuli (
talk)
09:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Venerable people
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Nominator's rationale:Rename - I'm not a subject matter expert but given that all of the sub-cats use "venerated" the parent should probably match.
Otto4711 (
talk)
17:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Based on their descriptions, which use the terminology for Catholic sainthood, it would appear that they should be renamed also. --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:CFL MOP Award winners
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French Redoutable classes of submarines
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Category:Afghan governor
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Category:Basketball forwards by century
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Category:Gyulay family
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Comment. Another article,
Ferencz Gyulai, has been added. These articles are all relatively new and seem to be transfers from the Hungarian Wikipedia that have not yet been fully translated, so it is possible that this is all part of a work in progress. Has anyone asked the creator for an explanation? --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete - small eponymous category whose contents are being shoehorned in under some pretext or another when they don't mention the family in question. Articles on family members tend to be well-interlinked anyway so categories are rarely needed except for the most expansive of families.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Type XVIIB U-boats
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Support Merge The categories are sufficiently close that they share a single article as their lead article. Nor is the number of contained articles likely to require a split. All of the use cases for categorization would seem to be met better by one single category than these separated categories.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
13:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Unsolved problems in philosophy
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Please reinstate the category text and articles so it can be properly discussed (per the cfd notice "Please do not empty the category ... while the discussion is in progress").
Occuli (
talk)
11:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
If a philosophy problem is unsolved then all philosophers who have claimed to have solved it must be wrong. Many philosophy schools felt they had all the answers, to start enumerating "unsolved" philosophy problems is to reject certain schools of though. This would seem to be quite the opposite of neutrality to me.
Pollinosisss (
talk)
15:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Philosophical problems. The nomination doesn't give a particularly compelling argument, but there are obvious POV problems with this category. Followers of one philosopher/school may consider an issue to have a clear answer, while others may consider the matter "unsolved". Since essentially every position in philosophy is disputed, this category could be empty or filled with every article about a philosophical problem, depending on how the POV issues are handled. So just put the articles in a category that identifies them neutrally instead. --
RL0919 (
talk)
15:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Philosophical problems. If there's a category Unsolved problems in philosophy then you'd expect to find a category Solved problems in philosophy, which might be hard to populate (though if anyone has any ideas...)
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Category:Yadkin Valley Wineries
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Category:Southwest Indian cyclones
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The result of the discussion was:Rename, except for the last one. I'm going to rename all but the last one as nominated, largely for the sake of consistency with the
previous CfD on this issue and so we can get the issue of adding "Ocean" out of the way, since there is consensus that that at least needs to be done. However, I think
Jason Rees does raise a valid point about the official spelling of the name by the WMO. There is no consensus yet on whether to use "Southwest or "South-West". For that reason, the last category will not be renamed and this close does not prohibit the categories from being renominated for renaming to the "South-West" spelling, or renomination of the last one to rename to "Southwest".Good Ol’factory(talk)22:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The proposal to use South-West as opposed to Southwest goes against the basin names in the
lead article and introduces a problematic spelling and typographic issue that we can avoid with the change as proposed.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
That can be fixed easily and in my opinon it doesnt introduce problematic spelling and typographic issues since the World Meterological Organisation says its the South-West Indian Ocean as opposed to the Southwest Indian Ocean. Also if you change the categories you have to change all of the articles and talkpage archives which all use South-West per the WMO. Also why should WP not be using the offical names for the basins?
Jason Rees (
talk)
22:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:YOURCODENAMEIS:MILO albums
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Protestant Christianity to Protestantism
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. When all the religious convert categories were recently renamed, we avoided this issue in order to gain consensus on the rest of the issues and I promised to raise this specific topic after we had completed those renames on the other issues. I now raise the issue of whether to use "Protestant Christianity" or "Protestantism" is category names. I favour "Protestantism", for a number of reasons: (1) the main article is at
Protestantism (
Protestant Christianity redirects to it) and article titles almost universally favour "Protestantism"; (2) the main category is at
Category:Protestantism and its subcategories overwhelmingly use "Protestantism", including
Category:Converts to Protestantism, which is a parent of 3 of these (in fact, the nominated catgories are the only ones that use "Protestant Christianity", and most of them were just created by us at CfD); (3)"Protestantism" yields about 3.7 million google hits, while
"Protestant Christianity" yields only about 170,000, which is a difference of about 22 times; (4) I'm not convinced there is anything "wrong" with the term "Protestantism", despite what has been raised before about it being disliked by adherents.
Good Ol’factory(talk)07:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Support rename "Protestantism" seems equally clear as a defining group and marginally better in a copywriting sense. Is anyone aware of any possible disparaging connotations to either though? I've lived close enough to Northern Ireland to know that the most innocuous of labels around religion can sometimes have a hidden and offensive meaning.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
08:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Support rename unless there's protestant Muslims or Buddhists somewhere… (Yes, I'm aware that some sects could be seen as “protest” sects, but that's not the same thing.)
Irbisgreif (
talk)
14:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose on grounds of self-identification. The lead paragraph of the article
Protestantism explains that many Protestant groups and individuals do not use the term to define themselves. People may identify themselves as having converted to Anglicanism or evangelicalism, etc, which are Protestant branches within Christianity, but few would say that they had converted to Protestantism. I have no objection to the parent category remaining as "Protestantism", but it seems to me that self-identification is very much the key in this specific context of conversion, and this should override the general preference for consistency in category naming.
Category:Converts to Protestantism should be renamed instead. (I declare an interest as a convert to a protestant form of Christianity.) -
Fayenatic(talk)19:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't think that self-identification is particularly important for the difference between Protestantism and Protestant Christianity. The categories should mirror the article.
Irbisgreif (
talk)
23:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename all. The main article is at
Protestantism, the proposed name is shorter and there's no ambiguity in the word "Protestantism". I don't understand the argument that in the context of conversion "Protestant Christianity" would be somehow more preferable than in other contexts. Surely these people identify as converts to Anglicanism, Calvinism, Lutheranism etc. rather than Protestantism (and could be subcategorized as such), but how is "Protestant Christianity" – a synonymous term – more preferable here?
Jafeluv (
talk)
07:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Television reboot
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Delete. Only four of the 18 articles in the category actually had the word 'reboot' anywhere in the article (other than this category assignment), two in quotes and one in a source title. The concept of a "reboot" assumes the existence of an ongoing in-universe continuity that is disrupted, but most of these works are remakes or derivatives that would never be assumed to have continuity from prior works except in the wishes of some fans. Something should only be called a "reboot" in an article if reliable sources are calling it such, and from the evidence in the associated articles that would leave a very small and unnecssary category. --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Afghan Governor
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Nominator's rationale: I created another category "Afghan governor" with a smaller "g" for governor. I was not able to change the name for this category. thank you
Ketabtoon (
talk)
01:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Folksonomy
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Keep. While admittedly something of a neologism, folksonomies are a topic of increasing interest in ontology and Web 2.0 / Web 3.0 work. Growth is very likely here. We have an article on
folksonomy, the notability of topic and category would seem closely related - is the nominator planning to delete the main article too?
Andy Dingley (
talk)
08:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Articles and categories have different standards and not every article requires its own category (otherwise every article would have its own category).
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:47, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale:Delete - re-creation of
previously deleted category, speedy tag removed with the false claim that the previous CFD is irrelevant. Reasons for deletion not addressed by the re-creation. Category was created by an editor who in his edit summary acknowledged he was re-creating a deleted category but re-created it without regard to that consensus anyway.
Otto4711 (
talk)
20:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep – I am surprised to hear that there is anything against "Foo characters" and this category is mainly a container category for presumably valid subcats.
Occuli (
talk)
20:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The reasoning behind the deletion of most of these categories is that they tend to collect articles on characters associated with the category subject and since characters associate with a lot of other characters they would wind up with a bunch of clutterful categories.
Otto4711 (
talk)
02:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
While 4 of the sub-cats may have a reason to be grouped together, including
Category:Anarky is a stretch. And honestly, this cat would be a case to have nil in the articles section. Based on the source material - comic book related articles - Foo characters or Foo related characters do tend to expand beyond a reasonable point. In the case of Batman, the potential pool covers any character that has appeared in any of the scores of Batman related comic book titles as well as any character that has been routinely paired with Batman. Roughly half, minimum, of the DC characters. I'm all for restricting what goes into these types of categories, and if this one cannot be paired down and held there, it should go. And Otto, an editor does have the right to recreate a category if they feel that either 1) consensus has changed or 2) the proposed use is sufficiently different or restricted from what was removed. This was recreated over a year after the original CfD and stood for just over a year before your speedy. While the edit summary removing the speedy is not quite correct - the old CfD is relevant - the intent is sound - consensus may have changed. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Can you point me to where the above re-creation criteria are listed, because I'm unfamiliar with them. Suggesting that any editor can re-create any category if they feel - without any supporting evidence - that consensus has changed seems like a really bad way to operate given that it takes 30 seconds to create a category and seven days to delete one.
Otto4711 (
talk)
10:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
{{Parent category}} - as well as the initial edit summary. The editor made a good faith effort to provide a navigation link for the list category and the TV series character categories. The rub comes in with 7 of the articles that have been added to the category. ("List of Batman Family enemies" would ideally just get rotated into Category: Lists of Batman characters.) And IIUC, the idea of speedy deletion related to categories is for cases where 1) the category was recently deleted or 2) an older deletion where similar categories are still being removed. Now, are we removing "Foo character" categories that are intended to just act as parents for list cats and tightly character cats? Also along those lines are we deleting categories that collect characters that have only appeared in that show? (And that may remove the reason this cat was recreated.) -
J Greb (
talk)
16:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
There are no other Foo character categories like this one of which I'm aware because they were all deleted around the same time this one was.
Otto4711 (
talk)
18:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Does that include character categories for TV shows and/or films? I ask because if those types of categories have been removed, then the 3 subs here need to be looked at. And keep in mind, character categories for comics tend to be messy since the characters are not necessarily restricted to only one series/title. Films and TV shows tend to have a more constrained list of articles, if a character list doesn't already exist. If lists are favored, and those three cats wind up going away, there is no reason for a parent category for the franchise to exist. -
J Greb (
talk)
19:28, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I'm not suggesting deleting any of the existing sub-categories. Categories for the characters within a specific film or TV show are well established and clearly appropriate for navigational purposes.
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep A well-populated structure that organizes a productively large group of articles and subcategories that are unified by this defining characteristic. Kudos to whoever took the bold step of recreating a category that is a clearly effective aid to navigation, the true purpose of the category system, not the arbitrary imposition of antiquated consensus. Past consensus to keep has never been effective at stopping future repeated nominations until the desired result of deletion is achieved (only at which point is it demanded that consensus must be respected at any and all costs, damn the consequences to Wikipedia).
Alansohn (
talk)
00:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Actually... if categories are rapidly renommed after a keep, the nomming editor get told to quit gaming the system. Same thing for quick recreations after a delete result. And you may want to double check, but one of the core principle for Wikipedia is the idea of consensus. -
J Greb (
talk)
02:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
There is a world of difference between periodically re-nominating categories to see if consensus about them has changed and unilaterally re-creating categories without consultation. Editors also frequently comment in re-nominated categories that the category was nominated recently before and cite that as a reason to keep (as with
this recent rename CFD). Throwing around smear words and phrases like "antiquated consensus" and "damn the consequences" strikes me as
soapboxing and borderline
failure to assume the good faith of those who re-nominate a previously kept category to check whether
consensus has changed. Funny how ignoring consensus is A-OK in your book when you agree with its outcome (as with this re-creation) but an abomination when you don't.
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The previous cfd is not 'recent' at all (June 2007). 4 of the 5 subcats did not exist in June 2007 so the earlier cfd is barely relevant. We don't know which 26 articles (26 is mentioned in the discussion) were in the category in 2007 (unless we wish to sift through Cydebot's billion edits since then) but it is quite likely that they are now legitimately collected in the subcats (the 3 subcats under 'B' happen to contain 26 articles between them). (Most of the top-level articles now could be subcatted into 'Alternate versions of Batman characters'.)
Occuli (
talk)
16:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per
June 27 CfD. It seems to have been too messy in the past. While it may not be that messy yet, there is still zero reasons given as to why this will not happen again if it happen before. Carlaude:Talk04:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't know if we need that hair-splitting nightmare. It runs up against "Define a 'Batman comic'.". "Is that just Batman or any title Batman is generally associated with?", "Does that include characters from from strips not associated with Batman published in comics associated Batman?" (Detective Comics is considered a "Batman" title but has been an anthology at time with non-Batman related strips.) "What about character associated with Batman introduced for 1 or 2 stories in a comic not associated with Batman?", and so on. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Anarky
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Nominator's rationale:Delete - small eponymous category with little or no growth potential. Contents are interlinked through text and if desired a template can be created.
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep having no "growth potential" is a now a ground for a category not existing at all? Also, just because a list and template may exist doesn't mean that a category should be deleted!
ninety:
one19:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Erm, no. It says small by definition, and this is not in the same vein as the examples given. Deleting this category wouldn't serve any kind of purpose whatsoever; it's is deletion for deletion's sake. (I feel an essay coming on!)
ninety:
one20:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Not quite... A category should be a navigation tool in most cases. Looking at the articles housed here, all three of them should be fairly well interlinked. Those linkages make a category unnecessary. Having it feels more a kin to having a cat for the sake of having a cat. And yes, the category fits the "small" concept. -
J Greb (
talk)
03:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - as the editor who created this category, I think an explanation is an order. I created it some months ago, after it was announced that the character would return to publication following a multi-year-long period of obscurity, and that the appearance would be a major event. I anticipated that the storyline would generate enough buzz that it would become notable in its own right, and another Anarky related article would be created. I also foresaw the need to create categories for other Batman villains; most notably the Joker. Moving on to other projects, I didn't really follow up with my intention of turning this category into a mere one among many to fall under a "Batman family enemies" category. It has also become apparent that I overestimated how important the character would be following the Dec. '08 revamp. In creating it, I largely acted prematurely. I won't disagree with anyone who tries to delete it now. --
Cast (
talk)
04:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:2009 Candidate for Manhattan Distract Attorney
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Overcategorization; we don't have transient categories of candidates for every political office in the world. If kept, at least rename, since the initial editor must have been "distract"ed when typing the title.
R'n'B (
call me Russ)
19:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete A rare example where overcategorization is a relevant issue. If kept, I also assume that we should pluralize the title. If there were only one candidate I would also agree that WP:OC#SMALL issues might be legitimate, as well.
Alansohn (
talk)
00:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator, else rename per nominator.
Debresser (
talk)
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Category:Half-blind people
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The result of the discussion was:Delete. This was a complicated discussion with good arguments on both sides, so I'll expand a little.
The concerns about the term "half blind" being insulting and ambiguous and having no objective definition could be solved by renaming the category to a more correct name, such as
Category:Partially sighted people or
Category:People with one functional eye. However, the issue about half-blindness not being a "defining characteristic" has not been substantially addressed by those advocating keep, and it would remain a problem even if the category was renamed to one of the proposed names. Note that categories should be based on "
essential, 'defining' features of article subjects". There are also concerns about the proposed alternative names like "partially sighted" and "partially blind" lacking an objective definition. In my view both the numbers and the strength of arguments are in favour of deletion as opposed to renaming the category.
Jafeluv (
talk)
21:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)reply
Also are they to be labeled half blind or half seeing? Labeling people like this is similar to labeling them as religious, we really need either a doctors statement or a statement from the subject that they themselves consider that they are half blind.
Off2riorob (
talk)
18:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment nonsensical reasoning from nom: The status of someone's sight can be determined from cited facts from their article. Using your logic, every category that pertains to a physical characteristic of a living person would be deleted for vague "BLP issues". And we don't normally use self-published sources - I fail to see why they would be required for this over any other type of statement?
ninety:
one19:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep The nomination makes no sense. Categories do not need to be cited; their use on a particular page does. As far as I can tell, this began at
Gordon Brown, where the verified text says he lost all the vision in one eye while at university. -
Rrius (
talk)
19:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete The category is vague and ill-defined. It's being used at
Gordon Brown and
Horatio Nelson to mean "people who are blind in one eye", and could be replaced with a more accurate category with that name. For people who are partially blind in both eyes, "people who are partially blind" would be a much better category, removing arguments about whether someone is half-blind or three-quarters-blind etc. "half-blind" also carries slang overtones that we don't need.
DJ Clayworth (
talk)
19:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Calling someone half-blind is generally considered an insult, so it is a really inappropriate category to use in BLPs. Even as a medical category it is badly defined: Is someone with perfect vision in one eye and 2% vision in the other half-blind? Someone with 50% vision in each eye? Someone who congenitally only has one (perfectly good) eye? Someone who lost an eye in an accident but has full sight in the other? As for having a category of "people blind in one eye", I am not in favour of creating such a category, or similar categories. --JN46621:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per Otto4711. In some sense, color blind is considered half-blind. The category seems to be created for the British prime minister. Bad faith creation, so delete.--
Caspian blue21:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Wikipedia has featured lists about people with medical conditions (epilepsy, HIV, brain tumors). Why would categories be less encyclopedic? Durova32021:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete. "Half-blind" is ambiguous. If "one functional eye" is meant, how is this defining? Would it include people who lost vision in one eye in old age? Why not? Medical categories should be reserved for those with conditions that truly define who they are (a controversial statement, yes—but true in this context, IMO).
Good Ol’factory(talk)02:08, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Agree that "partially sighted" is the commonly used term (it just occurred to me, 24 hours later, but you got there first). However, this too needs some definite criteria to be a useful category. --JN46617:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Which is not the same as being blind in one eye. Lacking a better proposal, I'm leaning delete as ambiguous and probably not defining or if defining being a maintenance nightmare to keep the category focused.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
Delete "People who have lost an eye" or "People who have worn an eyepatch", might be interesting categories, but this category does not appear to be capturing a defining characteristic.
Alansohn (
talk)
00:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Exactly what do you mean by "defining characteristic"? I think many perfectly valid categories would fail if you use those words in the way they are normally meant. Aren't categories meant to lump articles together so that someone interested in the topic may be able to find related articles? In the article
tinnitus, there are 51 sufferers listed. Would it be out of bounds to put them in a category called "people with tinnitus" or "people with auditory disorders" because tinnitus does not define them? -
Rrius (
talk)
02:47, 24 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. Nom's rationale does not make sense. We are not doctors, true (well, actually he should speak for himself), but that does not prevent us from writing well-referenced and quite in-depth articles about specific diseases. By the same argument, we should then remove
Category:Jews and
Category:Christians because we are not... I don't know... theologists? Please... A less contentious name to avoid upsetting PC crybabies could be better, but half-blind sounds good to me.
123.218.161.148 (
talk)
01:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete since there is no objective definition of what half blind means. While we could limit it to people who have one functioning eye, is that defining? Does someone who has an accident and loses sight in one eye belong in a category for someone who lost sight in one eye from a disease or did damage to their eye?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
00:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment from nominator. I was looking back at this and all the comments and thought to have a look at the
Blindness article here, there is no mention in that article of half blindness, I totally agree with the people that have commented that the term half blind is difficult to define and vague. Try this, close one eye....what can you see? ... everything!...what you lose is your depth of vision, your spacial understanding, your sense of distance and the 3D aspects of vision that having two eyes working together to focus on a single point in front of you. The term half blind is derogatory and not a true medical condition, partially sighted would be the modern term.
Here is a link to a google search which brings up almost nothing, one slang defenition, "alcohol intoxicated. : Four cans of beer and she was half-blind." and a reference to the biblical def and of course wikipedia's catagory! .. and I found
this on a blog "SHOCK NEWS: GORDON BROWN DEAF AS WELL AS (HALF) BLIND" all in all a motley crue. Delete asap.
Off2riorob (
talk)
11:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. I'm cretator of this category. We should categolize biographies by medical condition. If my expression was'nt so good, Improving will make the settlement. I think the concept of this category is clear. If this category is deleted, which category does Mr. Nominator delete next? What categories are left? --
Paladin R.T. (
talk)
05:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename the -present title is confusing--I do not think most people would say that someone who has good function vision with only a single eye (losing only stereoscopic vision) would be described as half-blind. A person is half-blind is someone who can just barely see. DGG (
talk )
20:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep or Rename. The purport of this category is distinct. Losing one eye's vision is declared in each page. Trival matters don't beget deletion. Nom shouldn't pose delate, but rename. --
Jun Nijo (
talk)
21:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The statement that "trivial matters don't beget deletion" directly contradicts the guideline on categorization
here. You can debate whether or not this is "trivial", but once it's acknowledged it is trivial, deletion is certainly begotten.
Good Ol’factory(talk)22:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete. I was going to suggest this should be renamed to something like
Category:Partially sighted people, but thinking about it's just a bad idea for a category. Most people end up with poor eyesight if they live long enough, so such a category would include far too many people; it's non-defining. Even if this is meant as 'people lacking sight in one eye', I don't see that as significant enough that it needs a category.
Robofish (
talk)
01:18, 4 October 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Canadian male basketball players
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Keep as an emerging branch of the tree for sports. Women and men compete separately (in most sports - equestrian would be one exception) and our catting should reflect this reality.
Mayumashu (
talk)
22:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
It is reflected by having a subcat (sometimes controversial, such as 'pool players') for females (or for males if the sport/profession is predominantly female, such as 'models').
Occuli (
talk)
09:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Venerable people
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Nominator's rationale:Rename - I'm not a subject matter expert but given that all of the sub-cats use "venerated" the parent should probably match.
Otto4711 (
talk)
17:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Based on their descriptions, which use the terminology for Catholic sainthood, it would appear that they should be renamed also. --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:CFL MOP Award winners
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French Redoutable classes of submarines
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Category:Afghan governor
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Category:Basketball forwards by century
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Category:Gyulay family
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Comment. Another article,
Ferencz Gyulai, has been added. These articles are all relatively new and seem to be transfers from the Hungarian Wikipedia that have not yet been fully translated, so it is possible that this is all part of a work in progress. Has anyone asked the creator for an explanation? --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete - small eponymous category whose contents are being shoehorned in under some pretext or another when they don't mention the family in question. Articles on family members tend to be well-interlinked anyway so categories are rarely needed except for the most expansive of families.
Otto4711 (
talk)
22:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Type XVIIB U-boats
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Support Merge The categories are sufficiently close that they share a single article as their lead article. Nor is the number of contained articles likely to require a split. All of the use cases for categorization would seem to be met better by one single category than these separated categories.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
13:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Unsolved problems in philosophy
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Please reinstate the category text and articles so it can be properly discussed (per the cfd notice "Please do not empty the category ... while the discussion is in progress").
Occuli (
talk)
11:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
If a philosophy problem is unsolved then all philosophers who have claimed to have solved it must be wrong. Many philosophy schools felt they had all the answers, to start enumerating "unsolved" philosophy problems is to reject certain schools of though. This would seem to be quite the opposite of neutrality to me.
Pollinosisss (
talk)
15:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Philosophical problems. The nomination doesn't give a particularly compelling argument, but there are obvious POV problems with this category. Followers of one philosopher/school may consider an issue to have a clear answer, while others may consider the matter "unsolved". Since essentially every position in philosophy is disputed, this category could be empty or filled with every article about a philosophical problem, depending on how the POV issues are handled. So just put the articles in a category that identifies them neutrally instead. --
RL0919 (
talk)
15:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to
Category:Philosophical problems. If there's a category Unsolved problems in philosophy then you'd expect to find a category Solved problems in philosophy, which might be hard to populate (though if anyone has any ideas...)
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Category:Yadkin Valley Wineries
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Category:Southwest Indian cyclones
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The result of the discussion was:Rename, except for the last one. I'm going to rename all but the last one as nominated, largely for the sake of consistency with the
previous CfD on this issue and so we can get the issue of adding "Ocean" out of the way, since there is consensus that that at least needs to be done. However, I think
Jason Rees does raise a valid point about the official spelling of the name by the WMO. There is no consensus yet on whether to use "Southwest or "South-West". For that reason, the last category will not be renamed and this close does not prohibit the categories from being renominated for renaming to the "South-West" spelling, or renomination of the last one to rename to "Southwest".Good Ol’factory(talk)22:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)reply
The proposal to use South-West as opposed to Southwest goes against the basin names in the
lead article and introduces a problematic spelling and typographic issue that we can avoid with the change as proposed.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
21:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
That can be fixed easily and in my opinon it doesnt introduce problematic spelling and typographic issues since the World Meterological Organisation says its the South-West Indian Ocean as opposed to the Southwest Indian Ocean. Also if you change the categories you have to change all of the articles and talkpage archives which all use South-West per the WMO. Also why should WP not be using the offical names for the basins?
Jason Rees (
talk)
22:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:YOURCODENAMEIS:MILO albums
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Protestant Christianity to Protestantism
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Nominator's rationale:Rename. When all the religious convert categories were recently renamed, we avoided this issue in order to gain consensus on the rest of the issues and I promised to raise this specific topic after we had completed those renames on the other issues. I now raise the issue of whether to use "Protestant Christianity" or "Protestantism" is category names. I favour "Protestantism", for a number of reasons: (1) the main article is at
Protestantism (
Protestant Christianity redirects to it) and article titles almost universally favour "Protestantism"; (2) the main category is at
Category:Protestantism and its subcategories overwhelmingly use "Protestantism", including
Category:Converts to Protestantism, which is a parent of 3 of these (in fact, the nominated catgories are the only ones that use "Protestant Christianity", and most of them were just created by us at CfD); (3)"Protestantism" yields about 3.7 million google hits, while
"Protestant Christianity" yields only about 170,000, which is a difference of about 22 times; (4) I'm not convinced there is anything "wrong" with the term "Protestantism", despite what has been raised before about it being disliked by adherents.
Good Ol’factory(talk)07:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Support rename "Protestantism" seems equally clear as a defining group and marginally better in a copywriting sense. Is anyone aware of any possible disparaging connotations to either though? I've lived close enough to Northern Ireland to know that the most innocuous of labels around religion can sometimes have a hidden and offensive meaning.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
08:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Support rename unless there's protestant Muslims or Buddhists somewhere… (Yes, I'm aware that some sects could be seen as “protest” sects, but that's not the same thing.)
Irbisgreif (
talk)
14:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose on grounds of self-identification. The lead paragraph of the article
Protestantism explains that many Protestant groups and individuals do not use the term to define themselves. People may identify themselves as having converted to Anglicanism or evangelicalism, etc, which are Protestant branches within Christianity, but few would say that they had converted to Protestantism. I have no objection to the parent category remaining as "Protestantism", but it seems to me that self-identification is very much the key in this specific context of conversion, and this should override the general preference for consistency in category naming.
Category:Converts to Protestantism should be renamed instead. (I declare an interest as a convert to a protestant form of Christianity.) -
Fayenatic(talk)19:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't think that self-identification is particularly important for the difference between Protestantism and Protestant Christianity. The categories should mirror the article.
Irbisgreif (
talk)
23:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename all. The main article is at
Protestantism, the proposed name is shorter and there's no ambiguity in the word "Protestantism". I don't understand the argument that in the context of conversion "Protestant Christianity" would be somehow more preferable than in other contexts. Surely these people identify as converts to Anglicanism, Calvinism, Lutheranism etc. rather than Protestantism (and could be subcategorized as such), but how is "Protestant Christianity" – a synonymous term – more preferable here?
Jafeluv (
talk)
07:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Television reboot
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Delete. Only four of the 18 articles in the category actually had the word 'reboot' anywhere in the article (other than this category assignment), two in quotes and one in a source title. The concept of a "reboot" assumes the existence of an ongoing in-universe continuity that is disrupted, but most of these works are remakes or derivatives that would never be assumed to have continuity from prior works except in the wishes of some fans. Something should only be called a "reboot" in an article if reliable sources are calling it such, and from the evidence in the associated articles that would leave a very small and unnecssary category. --
RL0919 (
talk)
16:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Afghan Governor
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Nominator's rationale: I created another category "Afghan governor" with a smaller "g" for governor. I was not able to change the name for this category. thank you
Ketabtoon (
talk)
01:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Folksonomy
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Keep. While admittedly something of a neologism, folksonomies are a topic of increasing interest in ontology and Web 2.0 / Web 3.0 work. Growth is very likely here. We have an article on
folksonomy, the notability of topic and category would seem closely related - is the nominator planning to delete the main article too?
Andy Dingley (
talk)
08:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)reply
Articles and categories have different standards and not every article requires its own category (otherwise every article would have its own category).
Otto4711 (
talk)
19:47, 23 September 2009 (UTC)reply
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