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Nominator's rationale: Category is way too broad. Practically any term from any scientific or engineering discipline could be considered "technical terminology".
Oli Filth(
talk|
contribs)23:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems useful for the terminology sub-cats, which are pretty specific. What useful purpose would deletion serve exactly?
Johnbod (
talk)
08:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
My counter-argument to that would be "what useful purpose would retaining serve?" The sub-categories are definitely standalone useful, but what has been achieved by tying them together into a vague and all-encompassing parent category?
Oli Filth(
talk|
contribs)19:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- but this should primarily be a parent category for categories and lists on particular classes of terminology. Accordingly the category probably needs to be purged of matter that ought to be in subcategories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
21:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:House of Taillifer
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Category:2002 Cincinnati Masters
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Technical nomination to consider how to handle these. The contents of this category appear to have been moved to
Category:2002 Western & Southern Financial Group Masters without a discussion. This is apparently a follow on to a rename of the tournament. I suspect that if this was a normal nomination it would pass. So I guess the question is should we delete this and modify the speedy deletion criteria to allow categories of this type to be handled there? Or should we require a full discussion here? In either case, how strongly should we scold the editors. In this case the comment I left was that the category was emptied out of process and should have been discussed here. Maybe a warning template (
template:uw-CfDprocess)?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
22:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment --Alumni categorises for colleges that merge or change name are named according to the existing institution. When I get to an article I find that this is about a tennis event. My question is whether the tournament wnet by its present name in 2002, in which case the change would be appropriate, or whehter the sponsorship is more recent, in which case it would be highly inappropriate and should be restored.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Looking at the articles, it would appear that it became dual named in 2002. But the article quality is poor so this may or may not be correct. However, I have included the navigation template since it shows Cincinnati Masters as the correct name. {{Cincinnati Masters tournaments}} Vegaswikian (
talk)
22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
There are many more examples in
Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. This is not an isolated occurrence. I just listed this one to explore how to deal with these. I expected the delete to be supported. I was surprised about the considerations discussed by
Peterkingiron which make a lot of sense and I did not even consider when I brought this here.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Abc radio
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Single-member category with a lengthy non-English text in the description page. Also an inherently ambiguous title (there are "ABC Radio" operations in at least the US and Australia.
R'n'B (
call me Russ)
20:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom — and to boot, the non-English text in the description page appears to be just a straight repaste of the non-English text in the category's sole article.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:National Renewal (Chile) políticals
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Nominator's rationale:Merge.
Category:Chilean politicians isn't sub-divided by party, and this category name doesn't look a good way to start. If instead of merging someone can think of a better name and / or a better place in the category structure for it (it's currently an orphan), so much the better.
BencherliteTalk16:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films about patriots
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Nominator's rationale: I see that there was a declined speedy last October. It had been CSDed because it was "subjective" and declined because that was not a valid criteria. Yet I do think that
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE may apply and so am nominating it for deletion to give the issue a full airing. The question of 'who is a patriot' is open to interpretation, is it not?
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
16:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Nakba Films
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The result of the discussion was:Rename to
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus. (Incidentally, I have heard some rumblings lately of editors wanting to reinstate "Nakba" to all of these article and category names, but for now, it does seem best to stick with the common naming format. They can always be changed if consensus changes in that regard.)Good Ol’factory(talk)03:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Nakba appears to be the Palestinian term for their 1948 exodus/expulsion from Israeli territories. I would suggest a category title that explains that in English (also addressing the correction to the capitalization of "films") OR the merge to Films about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (my preference). I think anything would be better that what we have now, which is pretty unclear to the average English reader.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
15:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep maybe rename. With the Israeli-Palestinian conflict now covering over 60 years, and with a large numbers of films, a sub-cat for this seems appropriate, apart from the possibility of placing it in other trees; it is
Category:1948 Palestinian exodus. Personally I think the
Nakba is a well-enough known term, though there is an issue whether it is "the Nakba" or "Nakba". A "films about..." phrasing would be better, but others may agree with Shawn that
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus is better, although that seems a somewhat POV term for the event now. It is the parent category though. How about
Category:Films about the 1948 Nakba?
Johnbod (
talk)
17:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I have lived in Israel for many years and don't know the term. And we are supposed to try and keep this the English Wikipedia. So strong rename.
Debresser (
talk)
12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus As currently worded, I would assume Nakba Films is a motion picture studio. The term "Nakba" redirects to
1948 Palestinian exodus and we should use that term to conform to the standard of matching the title of the parent article. This name will also provide greater clarity as to the content of the category. The nominator's proposed rename would broaden the scope beyond the well-defined inclusion criteria addressed in the category title.
Alansohn (
talk)
17:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:United States Army civilian victims
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Comment. Not empty now - it contains
Mahmudiyah killings. In that case the soldiers were charged, in which case there is probably a case for a category but with a better name - 'US misdeeds which led to a criminal conviction' or something like that.
Twiceuponatime (
talk)
07:55, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
If the deletion of this category could be considered NPOV (which if you knew me, you'd know I'm no friend of the U.S.), than surely it's creation could also be considered NPOV. Fact is, this category was created soley for Abeer Al-Janabi, there are no other categories like this on Wikipedia.
Ryan4314 (
talk)
13:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered Iraqi children
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Delete - POV category which, along with the
WP:UNDUE focus in the article on this person over the others in the family, comes off as "look at the evil Americans."
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete (creator). Yes, I created this, but I don't think I did so because of the result of a previous CfD. For categories I create myself, I (generally) won't create it unless there are at least 2 articles (not just redirects) in it, so I'm not sure what's happened to the other articles in the meantime. I wasn't forking any POVs by creating it, but I can understand how it could be interpreted that way judging by the current contents.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:ACB league players
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The result of the discussion was:Rename. To be honest, I'm a little unsure about the rationale for changing "managers" to "head coaches", but no one has objected, so ....
Good Ol’factory(talk)02:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Flemish nobility
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Nominator's rationale: There is no such thing as "Flemish nobility". The government of Flanders does not handle nobility, the Belgian government does. As for older noble titles, the only one that could be described as Flemish is the Count of Flanders: other ones like the Duke of Aerschot were not in Flanders at the time: the third one is a Spanish noblemen born in a village that is not currently in Flanders, and who never was a Fleming. He shouldn't be merged to "Belgian nobility" either, but the other two current entries in the category can be merged to it. Another option is to delete the category outright. As it stands, it makes no sense and would have only the counts of Flanders as entries. Since these have their own cat
Category:Counts of Flanders, a duplicate cat for them makes no sense.
Fram (
talk)
09:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep Some very strange arguments here - to deny that Aerschot, a member of the
House of Croÿ was Flemish seems very odd. What does "were not in Flanders at the time" mean? - he was Governor-General of it. There is a good case, following the much more comprehensive UK nob categories, for only using cat "Belgian nobility" for titles created since 1819 or whenever it was, in which case older Flemish titles should all go here.
Category:Counts of Flanders should obviously be a sub of this one.
Johnbod (
talk)
13:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Aarschot was at the time in the
Duchy of Brabant, not in the
County of Flanders. Croÿ (for which you added the whole house to the cat as well), is located in France. That someone from outside Flanders could become Governor-General is not so odd (e.g.
Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba was governor-general of the Netherlands). Adding more non-Flemish (as in from the contemporary Flanders, not from Brabant) nobility to this category does not change the rationale, and seems not to be the most productive effort (why not wait for a conclusion of the discussion, instead of rushing now to add things?). Could you please provide a definition of which ones are to be included and which ones aren't before adding any more? Everything in what was then called Flanders? Everything in what is now called Flanders? Everyone who has any connection to Flanders, no matter if he was born there, worked there, had an estate there, ...? Is
Axel Merckx Flemish nobility?
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor?
Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor?
Juan Carlos I of Spain? If you can't clearly define the category, it is better not to have it. If you can clearly define it, only articles that fit the definition should be included.
Fram (
talk)
13:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
As
Flanders explains well, it of all places has always had a changing definition, but has clearly existed. Everything in what was then called Flanders is the more sensible approach, since the category is clearly for pre-Belgian people. This would include Brabant in the Middle Ages - please remember this the English WP, and the English term "Flemish" will at times have been wider than local usage, covering all the southern Netherlands. Are you saying the Croys were not
Flemish people? Merckx & his title are Belgian, and the Habsburgs are covered in the Counts of Flanders sub-cat.
Johnbod (
talk)
14:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
"What was then called Flanders" is a very dubios definition in my opinion, and I would not call a Duke of Brabant "Flemish nobility".
County of Flanders is much more restricted. According to Flanders, theterm would only designate the county in the Middle Ages, and your definition only applies from about 1500("In the Early Modern, the term Flanders was associated with the southern part of the Low Countries, the Southern Netherlands"). The house of Croÿ?
Jean I de Croÿ was a Frenchman or a Burgundian.
Jean II de Croÿ was a Burgundian and a (modern designation) Walloon,
Philip I de Croÿ was a Burgundian Walloon, .. Later members include the French
Gustave Maximilien Juste de Croÿ-Solre, the German
Albrecht Prinz von Croy, the French
Louise-Elisabeth, Marquise de Tourzel... In what way is this a subcategory of
Flemish nobility?
Fram (
talk)
15:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- Arguments over who should be included are not a matter for an CFD discussion. Today, Flemish tends to be used for northern Belgium and Walloon for the south. That measn that the term relates to more than the county of Flanders. The appearance of certain Holy Roman Emperors is not wholly strange: they were ruling the area, not becuase they were the Emperor, but becuase they were also Duke of Brabant, Count of Flanders, etc. However, since they were the ultimate rulers (subject to the nominal suzerainty of the Emperor - if a different person), I am not sure they count as nobility, as opposed to (say) royalty.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
If we have a category for which no unambiguous inclusion or exclusion criteria can be put forward, then we shouldn't have that category. Flanders has had different meanings over the ages, and the Government of Flanders does not issue noble titles.
Fram (
talk)
07:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
A useful result of this debate would be to choose one of the possible definitions, to be added as a note. I am clear the definition should restrict the category to pre-Belgians. That the meaning of Flemish has not been constant does not prevent historic Flemish categories, any more than German, French or Italian ones.
Johnbod (
talk)
08:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep / Consider Rename The category contents seem to be a defining characteristic, it's the name that appears to be the issue. Debresser's suggestion or some other alternate may address the issue.
Alansohn (
talk)
16:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I doubt that a name change will reconcile the nom, but I'd be ok with it. The convention is "Fooish nobility" though.
Johnbod (
talk)
20:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete -- there has been something of a movement lately to categorize Flemish names and things under "by country" categories. As sensitive as I've tried to be to other oppressed cultures divided between countries (Kurds, Sorbs, Tamils, et alia), even in those cases we haven't been pretending they are modern nation-states.
Category:Counts of Flanders is already cross-categorized under County of Flanders, Counts of Belgium, Counts of France, Counts of the Netherlands. For navigation, this is entirely adequate. More seems needlessly POV. --
William Allen Simpson (
talk)
14:44, 21 June 2009 (UTC)reply
?? This is only in a "by country tree" as a subcat of the Belgian category. Where else would you put
Lewis de Bruges? It is one thing to put medieval Germans and Italians into "modern" categories, when these were well-known geographical & ethnic areas, if not yet states, in their day. It is quite another thing with Belgium - see for example
Category:Belgian painters, which following the universal practice of art history, only includes people after 1819.
Johnbod (
talk) 19:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Johnbod (
talk)
19:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Birthday Committee
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LGAs of cities in Australia
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Nominator's rationale: These four categories are expressed as being "of", possessive, an area they do not belong to, but merely exist "in". In each case, Local Government Areas belong to the State under whose legislation they exist (eg Local Government Act 1993 in Victoria), which confer no different status to metropolitan councils than they do rural ones. The metropolitan areas are carefully defined, for instance Perth's is defined as being the boundaries of the
Metropolitan Region Scheme which is used by every level of government, so this is not an objection to the contents - they are verifiably correct. The categories are useful for navigation purposes, hence I am only proposing a rename. (The Western Australian project decided to kill off the Perth one a while ago and upmerge to
Category:Local Government Areas of Western Australia, hence why only the four above are listed.)
Orderinchaos 06:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC) (Edit: support rename of additional category per Mattinbgn below)
Orderinchaos18:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People who entered the Witness Protection Program
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Agree -- There is a witness protection programme in UK, but who has entered it tends not to be publicised, because that would be counter-productive, just as we do not publicise the locations of women's refuges.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People who have received honorary degrees from Yale University
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Depends If there are a few more such categories, then that would indicate a community feeling that we need such a category. Which would per definition mean it is not overclassification. But if this is the only one, or almost the only one, then I would agree with the nominator.
Debresser (
talk)
08:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Listify/Delete as undefining for the individual / overcategorisation by award, and per precedent; how many similar categories would Steven Spielberg be in (for example) if he had one for each honorary degree?
BencherliteTalk16:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
possibly Rename to
Category:Holders of honorary degrees from Yale University. I am not sure that many universities award many honorary degrees, and I am not sure that honorary degrees other than doctorates are notable awards. The award of an honorary doctorate is a measn of a univeristy acknowledging that a person is particularly distinguished. However, ultimately this is an award category, for which the usual solution is listify and delete.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I poked around a bit to see if I could find a list of everyone who's received an honorary doctorate from Yale but was unsuccessful. Yale awarded
eight in 2006 and
ten in 2007. That seems commensurate with Harvard, which awarded
ten in 2009. Is that a lot, in the grander scheme of things? No idea, really. The other aspect of categorizing by honorary degrees is that the people who receive them tend to receive quite a few of them.
Stephen Chu, a 2009 Harvard honorary Ph.D, has received to date ten honorary degrees. He's already in 20 categories. Implementing an honorary degree scheme would up that to 30.
Anthony Fauci currently in 11 categories, has received more than 30 honorary degrees which would up his category count to over 40. I find it hard to believe that receiving an honorary degree, even from an institution as prestigious as Yale or Harvard, rises to the level of defining characteristic.
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete no doubt all these people are notable for something else, unless Yale is handing them out willy-nilly. Not defining for the person receiving it.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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More former Indian politicians
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Propose upmerging categories that subdivide politicians by "former" status per standard practice for these types of categories.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Support and expand per
Peterkingiron. It took a lot of digging to find out what these abbreviations meant and they are not even mentioned in most of the articles. MLC appears to be "Member of Legislative Council".
Vegaswikian (
talk)
17:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Members of the Knesset
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Per standard practice not to subcategorize politicians by current or former status. The members of the historical (former) Knessets are being organized into lists, which is the usual way of ordering this information.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Shortland Street characters
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. There is no need to subcategorize characters from a TV show into current and former statuses. We definitely don't categorize fictional characters as being
"dead" or "alive" (all too often the supposed "dead" are not really). This category would have to be restricted to "dead" characters or just those who haven't been on the show for some arbitrary period of time.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Yugoslav Political parties
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Delete Per nom - too confusing. This category would have been useful for political parties in the former Yugoslavia, but that is not what it is being used for and, if my historical understanding is correct, such a category would only contain one entry.
Orderinchaos06:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Grand Ole Opry members
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Propose merging this "former" category with the parent category, which is defined as a "current members" category. As with politicians, no need to separate former and current members in this case—it is preferable to have category information "timeless" when referring to people.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films set in impoverished urban neighborhoods
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While I suppose a category for films that are specifically about poverty itself might be useful, a category about films which merely happen to be set in poor neighbourhoods, but might actually be about something else entirely, really isn't. Delete.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Nominator's rationale: Category is way too broad. Practically any term from any scientific or engineering discipline could be considered "technical terminology".
Oli Filth(
talk|
contribs)23:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep Seems useful for the terminology sub-cats, which are pretty specific. What useful purpose would deletion serve exactly?
Johnbod (
talk)
08:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
My counter-argument to that would be "what useful purpose would retaining serve?" The sub-categories are definitely standalone useful, but what has been achieved by tying them together into a vague and all-encompassing parent category?
Oli Filth(
talk|
contribs)19:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- but this should primarily be a parent category for categories and lists on particular classes of terminology. Accordingly the category probably needs to be purged of matter that ought to be in subcategories.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
21:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:House of Taillifer
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Category:2002 Cincinnati Masters
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Technical nomination to consider how to handle these. The contents of this category appear to have been moved to
Category:2002 Western & Southern Financial Group Masters without a discussion. This is apparently a follow on to a rename of the tournament. I suspect that if this was a normal nomination it would pass. So I guess the question is should we delete this and modify the speedy deletion criteria to allow categories of this type to be handled there? Or should we require a full discussion here? In either case, how strongly should we scold the editors. In this case the comment I left was that the category was emptied out of process and should have been discussed here. Maybe a warning template (
template:uw-CfDprocess)?
Vegaswikian (
talk)
22:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment --Alumni categorises for colleges that merge or change name are named according to the existing institution. When I get to an article I find that this is about a tennis event. My question is whether the tournament wnet by its present name in 2002, in which case the change would be appropriate, or whehter the sponsorship is more recent, in which case it would be highly inappropriate and should be restored.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Looking at the articles, it would appear that it became dual named in 2002. But the article quality is poor so this may or may not be correct. However, I have included the navigation template since it shows Cincinnati Masters as the correct name. {{Cincinnati Masters tournaments}} Vegaswikian (
talk)
22:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
There are many more examples in
Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. This is not an isolated occurrence. I just listed this one to explore how to deal with these. I expected the delete to be supported. I was surprised about the considerations discussed by
Peterkingiron which make a lot of sense and I did not even consider when I brought this here.
Vegaswikian (
talk)
18:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Abc radio
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Nominator's rationale:Delete. Single-member category with a lengthy non-English text in the description page. Also an inherently ambiguous title (there are "ABC Radio" operations in at least the US and Australia.
R'n'B (
call me Russ)
20:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom — and to boot, the non-English text in the description page appears to be just a straight repaste of the non-English text in the category's sole article.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:National Renewal (Chile) políticals
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Nominator's rationale:Merge.
Category:Chilean politicians isn't sub-divided by party, and this category name doesn't look a good way to start. If instead of merging someone can think of a better name and / or a better place in the category structure for it (it's currently an orphan), so much the better.
BencherliteTalk16:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films about patriots
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Nominator's rationale: I see that there was a declined speedy last October. It had been CSDed because it was "subjective" and declined because that was not a valid criteria. Yet I do think that
WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE may apply and so am nominating it for deletion to give the issue a full airing. The question of 'who is a patriot' is open to interpretation, is it not?
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
16:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Nakba Films
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The result of the discussion was:Rename to
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus. (Incidentally, I have heard some rumblings lately of editors wanting to reinstate "Nakba" to all of these article and category names, but for now, it does seem best to stick with the common naming format. They can always be changed if consensus changes in that regard.)Good Ol’factory(talk)03:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Nakba appears to be the Palestinian term for their 1948 exodus/expulsion from Israeli territories. I would suggest a category title that explains that in English (also addressing the correction to the capitalization of "films") OR the merge to Films about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (my preference). I think anything would be better that what we have now, which is pretty unclear to the average English reader.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk)
15:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep maybe rename. With the Israeli-Palestinian conflict now covering over 60 years, and with a large numbers of films, a sub-cat for this seems appropriate, apart from the possibility of placing it in other trees; it is
Category:1948 Palestinian exodus. Personally I think the
Nakba is a well-enough known term, though there is an issue whether it is "the Nakba" or "Nakba". A "films about..." phrasing would be better, but others may agree with Shawn that
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus is better, although that seems a somewhat POV term for the event now. It is the parent category though. How about
Category:Films about the 1948 Nakba?
Johnbod (
talk)
17:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I have lived in Israel for many years and don't know the term. And we are supposed to try and keep this the English Wikipedia. So strong rename.
Debresser (
talk)
12:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Rename to
Category:Films about the 1948 Palestinian exodus As currently worded, I would assume Nakba Films is a motion picture studio. The term "Nakba" redirects to
1948 Palestinian exodus and we should use that term to conform to the standard of matching the title of the parent article. This name will also provide greater clarity as to the content of the category. The nominator's proposed rename would broaden the scope beyond the well-defined inclusion criteria addressed in the category title.
Alansohn (
talk)
17:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:United States Army civilian victims
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Comment. Not empty now - it contains
Mahmudiyah killings. In that case the soldiers were charged, in which case there is probably a case for a category but with a better name - 'US misdeeds which led to a criminal conviction' or something like that.
Twiceuponatime (
talk)
07:55, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
If the deletion of this category could be considered NPOV (which if you knew me, you'd know I'm no friend of the U.S.), than surely it's creation could also be considered NPOV. Fact is, this category was created soley for Abeer Al-Janabi, there are no other categories like this on Wikipedia.
Ryan4314 (
talk)
13:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Murdered Iraqi children
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Delete - POV category which, along with the
WP:UNDUE focus in the article on this person over the others in the family, comes off as "look at the evil Americans."
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete (creator). Yes, I created this, but I don't think I did so because of the result of a previous CfD. For categories I create myself, I (generally) won't create it unless there are at least 2 articles (not just redirects) in it, so I'm not sure what's happened to the other articles in the meantime. I wasn't forking any POVs by creating it, but I can understand how it could be interpreted that way judging by the current contents.
Good Ol’factory(talk)03:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:ACB league players
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The result of the discussion was:Rename. To be honest, I'm a little unsure about the rationale for changing "managers" to "head coaches", but no one has objected, so ....
Good Ol’factory(talk)02:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Flemish nobility
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Nominator's rationale: There is no such thing as "Flemish nobility". The government of Flanders does not handle nobility, the Belgian government does. As for older noble titles, the only one that could be described as Flemish is the Count of Flanders: other ones like the Duke of Aerschot were not in Flanders at the time: the third one is a Spanish noblemen born in a village that is not currently in Flanders, and who never was a Fleming. He shouldn't be merged to "Belgian nobility" either, but the other two current entries in the category can be merged to it. Another option is to delete the category outright. As it stands, it makes no sense and would have only the counts of Flanders as entries. Since these have their own cat
Category:Counts of Flanders, a duplicate cat for them makes no sense.
Fram (
talk)
09:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep Some very strange arguments here - to deny that Aerschot, a member of the
House of Croÿ was Flemish seems very odd. What does "were not in Flanders at the time" mean? - he was Governor-General of it. There is a good case, following the much more comprehensive UK nob categories, for only using cat "Belgian nobility" for titles created since 1819 or whenever it was, in which case older Flemish titles should all go here.
Category:Counts of Flanders should obviously be a sub of this one.
Johnbod (
talk)
13:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Aarschot was at the time in the
Duchy of Brabant, not in the
County of Flanders. Croÿ (for which you added the whole house to the cat as well), is located in France. That someone from outside Flanders could become Governor-General is not so odd (e.g.
Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba was governor-general of the Netherlands). Adding more non-Flemish (as in from the contemporary Flanders, not from Brabant) nobility to this category does not change the rationale, and seems not to be the most productive effort (why not wait for a conclusion of the discussion, instead of rushing now to add things?). Could you please provide a definition of which ones are to be included and which ones aren't before adding any more? Everything in what was then called Flanders? Everything in what is now called Flanders? Everyone who has any connection to Flanders, no matter if he was born there, worked there, had an estate there, ...? Is
Axel Merckx Flemish nobility?
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor?
Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor?
Juan Carlos I of Spain? If you can't clearly define the category, it is better not to have it. If you can clearly define it, only articles that fit the definition should be included.
Fram (
talk)
13:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
As
Flanders explains well, it of all places has always had a changing definition, but has clearly existed. Everything in what was then called Flanders is the more sensible approach, since the category is clearly for pre-Belgian people. This would include Brabant in the Middle Ages - please remember this the English WP, and the English term "Flemish" will at times have been wider than local usage, covering all the southern Netherlands. Are you saying the Croys were not
Flemish people? Merckx & his title are Belgian, and the Habsburgs are covered in the Counts of Flanders sub-cat.
Johnbod (
talk)
14:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
"What was then called Flanders" is a very dubios definition in my opinion, and I would not call a Duke of Brabant "Flemish nobility".
County of Flanders is much more restricted. According to Flanders, theterm would only designate the county in the Middle Ages, and your definition only applies from about 1500("In the Early Modern, the term Flanders was associated with the southern part of the Low Countries, the Southern Netherlands"). The house of Croÿ?
Jean I de Croÿ was a Frenchman or a Burgundian.
Jean II de Croÿ was a Burgundian and a (modern designation) Walloon,
Philip I de Croÿ was a Burgundian Walloon, .. Later members include the French
Gustave Maximilien Juste de Croÿ-Solre, the German
Albrecht Prinz von Croy, the French
Louise-Elisabeth, Marquise de Tourzel... In what way is this a subcategory of
Flemish nobility?
Fram (
talk)
15:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- Arguments over who should be included are not a matter for an CFD discussion. Today, Flemish tends to be used for northern Belgium and Walloon for the south. That measn that the term relates to more than the county of Flanders. The appearance of certain Holy Roman Emperors is not wholly strange: they were ruling the area, not becuase they were the Emperor, but becuase they were also Duke of Brabant, Count of Flanders, etc. However, since they were the ultimate rulers (subject to the nominal suzerainty of the Emperor - if a different person), I am not sure they count as nobility, as opposed to (say) royalty.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
If we have a category for which no unambiguous inclusion or exclusion criteria can be put forward, then we shouldn't have that category. Flanders has had different meanings over the ages, and the Government of Flanders does not issue noble titles.
Fram (
talk)
07:57, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
A useful result of this debate would be to choose one of the possible definitions, to be added as a note. I am clear the definition should restrict the category to pre-Belgians. That the meaning of Flemish has not been constant does not prevent historic Flemish categories, any more than German, French or Italian ones.
Johnbod (
talk)
08:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep / Consider Rename The category contents seem to be a defining characteristic, it's the name that appears to be the issue. Debresser's suggestion or some other alternate may address the issue.
Alansohn (
talk)
16:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I doubt that a name change will reconcile the nom, but I'd be ok with it. The convention is "Fooish nobility" though.
Johnbod (
talk)
20:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete -- there has been something of a movement lately to categorize Flemish names and things under "by country" categories. As sensitive as I've tried to be to other oppressed cultures divided between countries (Kurds, Sorbs, Tamils, et alia), even in those cases we haven't been pretending they are modern nation-states.
Category:Counts of Flanders is already cross-categorized under County of Flanders, Counts of Belgium, Counts of France, Counts of the Netherlands. For navigation, this is entirely adequate. More seems needlessly POV. --
William Allen Simpson (
talk)
14:44, 21 June 2009 (UTC)reply
?? This is only in a "by country tree" as a subcat of the Belgian category. Where else would you put
Lewis de Bruges? It is one thing to put medieval Germans and Italians into "modern" categories, when these were well-known geographical & ethnic areas, if not yet states, in their day. It is quite another thing with Belgium - see for example
Category:Belgian painters, which following the universal practice of art history, only includes people after 1819.
Johnbod (
talk) 19:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Johnbod (
talk)
19:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Birthday Committee
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LGAs of cities in Australia
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Nominator's rationale: These four categories are expressed as being "of", possessive, an area they do not belong to, but merely exist "in". In each case, Local Government Areas belong to the State under whose legislation they exist (eg Local Government Act 1993 in Victoria), which confer no different status to metropolitan councils than they do rural ones. The metropolitan areas are carefully defined, for instance Perth's is defined as being the boundaries of the
Metropolitan Region Scheme which is used by every level of government, so this is not an objection to the contents - they are verifiably correct. The categories are useful for navigation purposes, hence I am only proposing a rename. (The Western Australian project decided to kill off the Perth one a while ago and upmerge to
Category:Local Government Areas of Western Australia, hence why only the four above are listed.)
Orderinchaos 06:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC) (Edit: support rename of additional category per Mattinbgn below)
Orderinchaos18:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People who entered the Witness Protection Program
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Agree -- There is a witness protection programme in UK, but who has entered it tends not to be publicised, because that would be counter-productive, just as we do not publicise the locations of women's refuges.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:35, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:People who have received honorary degrees from Yale University
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Depends If there are a few more such categories, then that would indicate a community feeling that we need such a category. Which would per definition mean it is not overclassification. But if this is the only one, or almost the only one, then I would agree with the nominator.
Debresser (
talk)
08:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Listify/Delete as undefining for the individual / overcategorisation by award, and per precedent; how many similar categories would Steven Spielberg be in (for example) if he had one for each honorary degree?
BencherliteTalk16:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
possibly Rename to
Category:Holders of honorary degrees from Yale University. I am not sure that many universities award many honorary degrees, and I am not sure that honorary degrees other than doctorates are notable awards. The award of an honorary doctorate is a measn of a univeristy acknowledging that a person is particularly distinguished. However, ultimately this is an award category, for which the usual solution is listify and delete.
Peterkingiron (
talk)
22:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I poked around a bit to see if I could find a list of everyone who's received an honorary doctorate from Yale but was unsuccessful. Yale awarded
eight in 2006 and
ten in 2007. That seems commensurate with Harvard, which awarded
ten in 2009. Is that a lot, in the grander scheme of things? No idea, really. The other aspect of categorizing by honorary degrees is that the people who receive them tend to receive quite a few of them.
Stephen Chu, a 2009 Harvard honorary Ph.D, has received to date ten honorary degrees. He's already in 20 categories. Implementing an honorary degree scheme would up that to 30.
Anthony Fauci currently in 11 categories, has received more than 30 honorary degrees which would up his category count to over 40. I find it hard to believe that receiving an honorary degree, even from an institution as prestigious as Yale or Harvard, rises to the level of defining characteristic.
Otto4711 (
talk)
04:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete no doubt all these people are notable for something else, unless Yale is handing them out willy-nilly. Not defining for the person receiving it.
Carlossuarez46 (
talk)
22:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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More former Indian politicians
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Propose upmerging categories that subdivide politicians by "former" status per standard practice for these types of categories.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
Support and expand per
Peterkingiron. It took a lot of digging to find out what these abbreviations meant and they are not even mentioned in most of the articles. MLC appears to be "Member of Legislative Council".
Vegaswikian (
talk)
17:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Members of the Knesset
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Per standard practice not to subcategorize politicians by current or former status. The members of the historical (former) Knessets are being organized into lists, which is the usual way of ordering this information.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Shortland Street characters
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. There is no need to subcategorize characters from a TV show into current and former statuses. We definitely don't categorize fictional characters as being
"dead" or "alive" (all too often the supposed "dead" are not really). This category would have to be restricted to "dead" characters or just those who haven't been on the show for some arbitrary period of time.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Yugoslav Political parties
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Delete Per nom - too confusing. This category would have been useful for political parties in the former Yugoslavia, but that is not what it is being used for and, if my historical understanding is correct, such a category would only contain one entry.
Orderinchaos06:15, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Former Grand Ole Opry members
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Nominator's rationale:Upmerge. Propose merging this "former" category with the parent category, which is defined as a "current members" category. As with politicians, no need to separate former and current members in this case—it is preferable to have category information "timeless" when referring to people.
Good Ol’factory(talk)05:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Films set in impoverished urban neighborhoods
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While I suppose a category for films that are specifically about poverty itself might be useful, a category about films which merely happen to be set in poor neighbourhoods, but might actually be about something else entirely, really isn't. Delete.
Bearcat (
talk)
21:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)reply
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