Category:Americans executed for spying for the Soviet Union
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Delete. --Xdamrtalk 15:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization. Category for just one article, unlikely to ever have any more, particularly as the Soviet Union no longer exists.
Jayjg (talk) 23:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Unnecessary category for just one article that will never have any more in the category.
-shirulashem(talk) 00:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to the various parent categories. (This is a quadruple intersection.)
Occuli (
talk) 00:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nominator's arguments.
Debresser (
talk) 01:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Casting
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Nominator's rationale:Rename.
Casting is rather ambiguous and theatrical casting could be well enough known to say that there is no primary use.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 23:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support per nominator, even though the article is still
Casting without a classifier.
Debresser (
talk) 01:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I'm not completely opposed to this, but then a few articles, like
Endocranial cast and
Controlled permeability formwork, would need to be removed. "Casting (manufacturing)" works better with the current
casting article, because that article covers both metal and non-metal casting, whereas "casting (metalworking)" matched well with the
casting (metalworking) article. I'm cool with however it works out.
Wizard191 (
talk) 19:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Good points - perhaps we need both, as parent & sub.
Johnbod (
talk) 19:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That would work well with how the articles are currently laid out. Right now there's a huge gap in articles about plastic, resin, concrete, and other non-metal casting processes, but I think (hope) that in the future a "casting (manufacturing)" category would fill in.
Wizard191 (
talk) 21:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That is one of the reasons I went with the material neutral
Category:Casting (manufacturing). I thinks that those participating in this discussion agree that changes are needed. However this winds up, I'm sure that the proposed rename would only be the start of a cleanup process.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose Rename The parent article is
Casting, and the category will appear in contexts related to manufacturing or metalworking.
Alansohn (
talk) 01:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Retailers of Belgium
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename all per nom. --Xdamrtalk 17:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. These companies don't really sell Belgium. The change would also match the most common form of subcategories in
Category:Retailers by country. If this rename gets a favorable reception. I'll continue to add the remaining subcategories.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 22:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support (funny formulated) nomination per nominator.
Debresser (
talk) 01:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- Not every retailer is a company. Some shops are run by sole traders or partnerships. This accordingly merely adding an unnecessary noun to the category name, which should always be kept as short as possible.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That is true that these are not always companies and given that virtually all of the entries in these categories are companies they should be renamed for clarity. I don't believe that there is any objection to having a category for people who are notable for their retailing activities.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Peterkingiron. Propose Rename to "X-ian retailers" for better flow. Rename to "X-ian retail companies". More natural than "of X". --
Cybercobra(talk) 05:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Category:X-ian retailers could be a better name for individuals, but I'm not convinced that it works for companies and that is what most of these are.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Common use in my experience is that it's used for companies. I've never heard it used for a person. But whatever. --
Cybercobra(talk) 22:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
PLEASE DO NOT RENAME Category:Retailers of the United Kingdom. IT IS HARD ENOUGH ALRADY TO FIND SOMETHING WITHOUT ADDING WORDS THAT DO NOT MEAN ANYTHING IT IS FRUSTRATING TO FING SOMETHING AND IT IS THRER OR ITS IN RED LETTERS OR ITS IN RED LETTERS THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST SO PLEASE, DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME. KEEP IT AS IT IS
josh477 (
talk) 22:08, 25 August 2009 (EST)
Support Renames I agree with some of the issues raised in opposition, but the overall parent
Category:Retailers by country follows the "Retail companies of Foo" standard for most other nations, and is a standard that is reasonable to follow. The same standard is also used overwhelmingly in other industry by nation category structures.
Alansohn (
talk) 02:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Plot devices
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Merge The contents of the source category are also largely listed in
Literary technique, which is the main article for the target category. On that basis, I think there's a case for some consolidation, here.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk) 18:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Foundry sand testing
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Upmerge due to lack of articles. Right now there aren't enough article to present a need for this category.
Wizard191 (
talk) 15:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment. The articles in that category are properly in that category which appears to be a sub-cat dealing with the properties of casting sand.
Category:casting deals with casting in general. I would be happy to keep the category but we really need input from a specialist in that subject.
Twiceuponatime (
talk) 10:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
One or both of the included articles could easily be folded into the main article. That article is about sand used in foundry castings so a rename there is probably a good move.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Other related discussion point to the need to restructure the parent. I think that the upmerge makes sense to allow a clearer view of the contents which may help create a better structure of subcategories.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 23:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Treviso
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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The result of the discussion was:Keep. --Xdamrtalk 15:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Disagree as with a similar nomination a few days ago. It is perfectly clear already: the city is
Treviso, and the province is
Province of Treviso. Furthermore, why change the name of the category from the name of the main article?
Debresser (
talk) 00:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Article pages have the benefit of the article for description whereas category pages do not and therefore should be named more explicitly, with greater disambiguation. Again, it is not perfectly clear to those not familiar with Treviso, and it is for their benefit that less ambiguous naming should be used.
Mayumashu (
talk) 13:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
oppose Category pages most certainly have the benefit of description. You can easily describe what the purpose of a category is on the category page. Regardless, the main article is at
Treviso, and its categories should follow.
Resolute 15:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Regional beetle lists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:No Consensus. --Xdamrtalk 17:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Wouldn't it be better to name such categories unanimously. While majority of categories use the following form: [[List of {{taxon}}}s]], I suggest us to move this category to the
Category:Lists of beetles and make "
Category:Regional beetle lists" a redirect to it. Moreover, the subcategories of the category we are discussing use such a form. Please express your opinions about that. --
WisconsusTALK|things 14:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Free game modification tools
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: I think this one was missed when all the 'game' -> 'video game' happened. It's obvious this category means 'video games'. (This category might also be deleted altogether, but I'm not sure that's needed here.)
DanielPharos (
talk) 11:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I would support renaming this category, but I strongly doubt whether we should keep such a category at all. So far, it has got only 1 article belonging to it, so it should be proposed for deletion according to the rules of the
categorization, unless more articles (or subcategories) will be put into this category. --
WisconsusTALK|things 14:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge - to
Category:Video game modification tools unless it can be shown by the close of the CFD that there is a likelihood that the category can be appropriately populated. If so, then rename per nom.
Otto4711 (
talk) 04:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment Whether a tool is free could also be expressed by adding it to the free software category, I guess. Also, the category will remain extremely small: there aren't that many tools which have an open license. So that means the category should be upmerged? --
DanielPharos (
talk) 10:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Gundam factions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Delete. --Xdamrtalk 15:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge (each will have to be individually reviewed to determine appropriate targets, as nom points out) and then delete. Actually, it may have been better to ask specifically about this at
WT:GUNDAM, get a concrete plan of action, and then present it here in the nom. 「
ダイノガイ千?!」? ·
Talk⇒Dinoguy1000 18:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge yea that how it should handled. Crazy over categorization --
KrebMarkt 19:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete These articles do not belong in
Category:Gundam and they are already categorized into their appropriate series specific categories. What to do with the articles from there should be left to the cleanup teams. --Farix (
Talk) 22:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per Farix since there are no appropriate upmerge targets.
G.A.Stalk 17:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:AfC submissions by reviewer (and all subcategories)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
WP:AFC is an important process and those involved deserve thanks. However, with very limited exceptions, categories are strictly for encyclopaedic and maintenance purposes. The advent of hidden categories does not give carte blanche to disregard past precedents and consensus.
Nominator's rationale:Delete - This is a newly created category tree that I feel is a bad idea and sets a dangerous precedent if allowed to stay, so I thought I would nip this in the bud before it got any larger. Basically, this category tree allows for an individualized category for every user who has ever created an article via a request at
WP:AFC, and if this tree were complete, every article talk page of every article ever created via
WP:AFC would have a category on it identifying the user that created that page. In the hope that there was actually some encyclopedic purpose for maintaining such a categorization scheme that I overlooked, I asked the creator of this tree what purpose this had. He stated that it was "simply to help give some recognition for the work done by members of
WP:WPAFC". While I think we can all appreciate the work being done by the users participating in this project, I would strongly object to the use of categories to recognize them. This is because categories should have an encyclopedic purpose behind them, we should not be using categories for recognition purposes.
We've deleted numerous similar user categories created for recognition purposes, and I think this philosophy would translate over even moreso for article categories. I also fear that keeping this category would be absolutely no different than keeping any number of other "recognition" categories, ranging anywhere from
Category:Articles significantly edited by User:xyz,
Category:Articles nominated for featured status by User:xyz,
Category:Pages patrolled by User:xyz, to even simply
Category:Articles created by User:xyz. I think when we start creating individual categories for each user based on their accomplishments, and start adding article talk pages to these categories, we begin flirting with violating
WP:OWN, in addition to creating a bunch of unencyclopedic categories that are solely there for "recognition". The categories are hidden, true, but that only makes it so the average user doesn't see them when going to the talk page. The advent of the "hidden" feature does not give us a free pass to start creating otherwise unencyclopedic categories, IMO, and the fact that they are marked as hidden doesn't really address any of my issues with the tree. Once again, I think we can all appreciate the work that is being done, but I see no reason why this information couldn't be on each individual's user page, or even on a Wikipedia space subpage of the Wikiproject that maintains a list. There is absoultely no encyclopedic reason to specifically seek out, via use of a category, all categories created via AfC by a particular user, and thus this tree should be deleted.
VegaDark (
talk) 04:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support nom, all of whose points are compelling.
Occuli (
talk) 08:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep. This is an interesting nomination and the concerns are understandable, but I don't believe these categories are harmful in any way. A few points:
Categories do not have to be "encyclopedic" (depending on what that means). For example we have thousands of maintenance categories which help to keep track of pages and are not designed for readers of the encyclopedia. From this perspective, I see little difference in the categories
Category:AfC submissions by date,
Category:AFC submissions by status and
Category:AfC submissions by reviewer actually. To me, categorising articles by date and status is equally valuable to tracking by reviewer.
Many users maintain lists of articles that they have created or worked on. This is little different to that, except that it is in category space rather than user space. The reason that categories are used here is that they are the cleanest and neatest method of doing so, being maintained automatically using templates and parser functions. If it was possible to use user or project space then we would, but there is only one category namespace!
Hidden categories are perfectly suited to this purpose, in my opinion. They are all invisible by default and editors who dislike the clutter can choose to deselect that option in their preferences. Note also that the categories contain talk pages and not the articles themselves (they are not "article categories" as claimed).
— Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 11:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I would distinguish maitenance categories from the categories at hand. True, maitenance categories are not encyclopedic per se, but they do directly benefit the encyclopedia by existing, signifying something that needs to be done (actually, looking at the other examples you cite, the "by date" category doesn't seem to have much benefit to the encyclopedia either), while the "by status" category has the benefit of showing what still needs to be dealt with. I can't see such a benefit for for the "by reviewer" tree.
VegaDark (
talk) 19:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't believe you have ever worked in the WikiProject, so it might seem somewhat presumptuous to tell us what is and is not useful. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 09:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Yes, of course.
Johnbod (
talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep We give credit for featured articles, good articles, Did You Know? and all sorts of other areas where many people may have been involved with an article, but one person gets credit for taking the bull by the horns and creating or improving the article. AfC is an important process that allows for creation of articles based on material provided by other editors, providing a safety valve to allow quality, properly-structured articles to be developed rather than having people create poor-quality junk that ends up getting deleted and pissing off new editors who can't understand why their article can't remain. The tags are on the talk pages and would not interfere in any way with navigation. While some here believe that the category world is what drives Wikipedia, it is actually articles that make it an encyclopedia, and we should be giving far more credit to those who actually create content.
Alansohn (
talk) 15:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
We give credit for featured articles, good articles, Did You Know? and all sorts of other areas where many people may have been involved with an article - True, the difference is that none of these other areas have categories for this recognition. Keeping this tree would allow for a category for each of those areas and any other area someone could think of, and the rationale for keeping those would be no different. Most of your comment revolves around the benefits of the AfC process, which shouldn't IMO be the focal point at all for this nom. As I already said they are doing good work, and do deserve recognition, I just don't think this recognition should be through categories. I would oppose the creation of a similar tree for any other area on Wikipedia, whether it be users who create/nominate featured articles/lists/portals/files, or potentially infinite other areas. Taking it to an extreme, you could potentially have a category tree for users who have simply edited an article, leaving the possibility for thousands of hidden "Articles edited by User:xyz" categories on the talk page. Where do you draw the line? What rationale for keeping this would bar creation of such an "articles edited" tree (which I assume nobody wants to see pop up) without creating a double standard?
VegaDark (
talk) 19:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator, counterarguments notwithstanding.
Debresser (
talk) 00:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep - there must be other ways of doing this too. I would be happy with a user subpage that was populated with the list. This list gives me an opportunity to go back and further improve the articles I have created. I don't count it as recognition. Currently
Category:AfC submissions by reviewer/Graeme Bartlett has 741 articles in it. So I may be one of the bigger targets for this. EarwigBot I is the machine populating the cats.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk) 05:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I cannot see the point of this. I usually add articles that I have created or on which I have worked to my watchlist. I can see what i have done on My contributions. Why more?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep if possible in some form, but preferably not as a talk (let alone article) page cat.
Johnbod (
talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - It seems like both Graeme Bartlett and Johnbod's keep rationales actually support my nomination. there must be other ways of doing this too. I would be happy with a user subpage that was populated with the list. and Keep if possible in some form, but preferably not as a talk (let alone article) page cat - I agree with both of these statements. We can keep these on a user subpage or a wikiproject subpage. It sounds like users are responding more as if this were a proposal to do away with giving recognition to these users or removing the lists entirely, which I don't want at all. I'm simply concerned with the category system employed. I agree, keep giving recognition (via another method), and keep this info either in userspace or projectspace- but delete the categories.
VegaDark (
talk) 19:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have now started the process of depopulating these categories prior to their deletion. Creating
User:MSGJ/AfC reviews took my >20 mins and cannot be updated without the use of a bot. Ah, well. I think what we need is a "super-hidden" category which will never be displayed on the page itself. Then all concerns would seem to be satisifed. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 09:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jeju
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename all per nom. --Xdamrtalk 15:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: for disambiguation from
Jeju-siMayumashu (
talk) 02:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mute Math Singles
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per above.
Occuli (
talk) 09:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I changed it already before seeing this. It was a simple change and didn't think this was needed. Sorry. --
Wolfer68 (
talk) 03:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Albums produced by Kara DioGuardi
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Nominator has not stated a desired outcome for this debate. Having consulted some chicken entrails, my divining rod, and the template on the category page, I think delete is what he would have wanted... --17:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Nominator's rationale: Precedent is that, with subcategories of
Category:Albums by producer, the producer must have several solo production credits to warrant a category. Kara DioGuardi does not. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (
Many otters •
One bat •
One hammer) 01:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional people with albinism
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
For renaming: For consistency with the
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature (see e.g.
Category:Fictional characters with dwarfism). The main article for this category is
Albinism in popular culture; since
albinism is not limited to people (i.e. humans), especially in the imaginations of fiction writers, the current title has resulted in several cases of miscategorization or questionable categorization. For instance, the
Crawlers from The Descent series are identified as humanoids, but it seems inaccurate to describe them as "people"; the same could be said of the
Morlocks. Fictional albinos can also be aliens (e.g.
Mojo from
Marvel Comics), animals (e.g.
Pure Ferret), and anything else that writers can imagine.
For listifying: In many cases this category seems to be added to any article about a fictional character with abnormally white or pale skin, hair, or eyes (e.g. until recently, the
Wraith from Stargate were in the category), even though it is not uncommon for writers to ascribe abnormal physical characteristics to their fictional characters. Assuming that the creator of said characters intended this to be a form of albinism runs afoul of our prohibition of
original research. For this reason, because we are attempting to connect—through personal visual observation—a real-world condition with the physical appearance of a fictional character, a list could do a much better job of presenting this information. Unlike a category, a list could provide (sourced) commentary to explain and justify the affiliation of a particular character with albinism. And while it is true that list and categories can complement each other, they should not always do so, particularly when one (in this case, the category) is inherently problematic.
Listify per persuasive arguments. Good nom, BF.
Grutness...wha? 00:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support Rename to
Category:Fictional characters with albinism to match this defining characteristic to other subcats in the parent
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature. The entire category system in Wikipedia depends on our ability to accurately determine if articles belong in a category, something that is not unique to this category, and every category is at risk of inaccurate categorization. No category can include references, affiliations or descriptions and arguments based on the lack of such references apply to the entire system, with no relevance to justifying deletion of this one. By using descriptions by the author or in other reliable and verifiable sources about the work describing a character as an albino as our gold standard, we have absolutely no issue with the much-feared
WP:OR problem. If particular entries have been improperly categorized, dealing with the issue at the article level by removing the article from the category would be far less disruptive than deleting the entire category. If there is a genuine fear of miscategorization based on light-skinned characters being termed as albinos based on original research, we have a problem that pollutes all of the parent
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature and the entire category system. We can use the category system to group articles by defining characteristics (such as this one) and allow similar articles to be accessed by navigating through categories or we can use arguments that apply to all categories and pick categories off randomly one at a time. If this argument will be pursued, why not chop down the entire
Category:Fictional characters structure and solve the imagined "problem" rather than leave some categories to survive that have the exact same set of purported issues?
Alansohn (
talk) 04:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
We could create
Category:Fictional albino animals (it would, however, contain few articles) as a subcategory of
Category:Albino animals (since albinism in animals is a real phenomenon), but we cannot do the same for fictional humanoids, fictional aliens, and other fictional creatures that do not have real-world albino counterparts. On the issue of original research (and partly in response to Alansohn): I do not think that the OR problems associated with a category for fictional albino characters are insurmountable—rigorous source-checking and enforcement of
Wikipedia:No original research at the article level, which is much more difficult to do in practice than in theory, would solve the problem—but I do think that they are significantly more pronounced than those associated with a category for albino people. In the case of real people and animals, albinism can be confirmed by a medical professional or with genetic testing. In the case of fictional characters, albinism can be confirmed only if the character's creator explicitly identifies the character as an albino (otherwise, it amounts to personal or secondary speculation). –BLACK FALCON(
TALK) 16:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- This is a rational name for the category. Anything with "popular culture" in it smacks of a variety of trivia that was deleted wholesale a couple of years ago.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Can you clarify, please, to what the "it" in "anything with 'popular culture' in it" refers? My guess is that you are writing about page titles, but I'm not sure whether you mean article titles or category titles... Thanks, –BLACK FALCON(
TALK) 07:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose listifying - "Foo in popular culture" articles almost invariably become crap magnets, as editors dash to their computers every time they spot a Foo to add it, regardless of whether the fictional Foo has the slightest significance to the fiction or to the real world. No terribly strong opinion on the name of the category although being albino is not something I particularly think about when considering fictional characters. YMMV.
Otto4711 (
talk) 18:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Americans executed for spying for the Soviet Union
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Delete. --Xdamrtalk 15:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization. Category for just one article, unlikely to ever have any more, particularly as the Soviet Union no longer exists.
Jayjg (talk) 23:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete Unnecessary category for just one article that will never have any more in the category.
-shirulashem(talk) 00:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge to the various parent categories. (This is a quadruple intersection.)
Occuli (
talk) 00:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge per nominator's arguments.
Debresser (
talk) 01:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Casting
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename.
Casting is rather ambiguous and theatrical casting could be well enough known to say that there is no primary use.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 23:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support per nominator, even though the article is still
Casting without a classifier.
Debresser (
talk) 01:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I'm not completely opposed to this, but then a few articles, like
Endocranial cast and
Controlled permeability formwork, would need to be removed. "Casting (manufacturing)" works better with the current
casting article, because that article covers both metal and non-metal casting, whereas "casting (metalworking)" matched well with the
casting (metalworking) article. I'm cool with however it works out.
Wizard191 (
talk) 19:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Good points - perhaps we need both, as parent & sub.
Johnbod (
talk) 19:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That would work well with how the articles are currently laid out. Right now there's a huge gap in articles about plastic, resin, concrete, and other non-metal casting processes, but I think (hope) that in the future a "casting (manufacturing)" category would fill in.
Wizard191 (
talk) 21:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That is one of the reasons I went with the material neutral
Category:Casting (manufacturing). I thinks that those participating in this discussion agree that changes are needed. However this winds up, I'm sure that the proposed rename would only be the start of a cleanup process.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose Rename The parent article is
Casting, and the category will appear in contexts related to manufacturing or metalworking.
Alansohn (
talk) 01:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Retailers of Belgium
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename all per nom. --Xdamrtalk 17:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Rename. These companies don't really sell Belgium. The change would also match the most common form of subcategories in
Category:Retailers by country. If this rename gets a favorable reception. I'll continue to add the remaining subcategories.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 22:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support (funny formulated) nomination per nominator.
Debresser (
talk) 01:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose -- Not every retailer is a company. Some shops are run by sole traders or partnerships. This accordingly merely adding an unnecessary noun to the category name, which should always be kept as short as possible.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
That is true that these are not always companies and given that virtually all of the entries in these categories are companies they should be renamed for clarity. I don't believe that there is any objection to having a category for people who are notable for their retailing activities.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose per Peterkingiron. Propose Rename to "X-ian retailers" for better flow. Rename to "X-ian retail companies". More natural than "of X". --
Cybercobra(talk) 05:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Category:X-ian retailers could be a better name for individuals, but I'm not convinced that it works for companies and that is what most of these are.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 21:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Common use in my experience is that it's used for companies. I've never heard it used for a person. But whatever. --
Cybercobra(talk) 22:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)reply
PLEASE DO NOT RENAME Category:Retailers of the United Kingdom. IT IS HARD ENOUGH ALRADY TO FIND SOMETHING WITHOUT ADDING WORDS THAT DO NOT MEAN ANYTHING IT IS FRUSTRATING TO FING SOMETHING AND IT IS THRER OR ITS IN RED LETTERS OR ITS IN RED LETTERS THAT IT DOESN'T EXIST SO PLEASE, DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME. KEEP IT AS IT IS
josh477 (
talk) 22:08, 25 August 2009 (EST)
Support Renames I agree with some of the issues raised in opposition, but the overall parent
Category:Retailers by country follows the "Retail companies of Foo" standard for most other nations, and is a standard that is reasonable to follow. The same standard is also used overwhelmingly in other industry by nation category structures.
Alansohn (
talk) 02:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Plot devices
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Merge The contents of the source category are also largely listed in
Literary technique, which is the main article for the target category. On that basis, I think there's a case for some consolidation, here.
Shawn in Montreal (
talk) 18:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Foundry sand testing
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Upmerge due to lack of articles. Right now there aren't enough article to present a need for this category.
Wizard191 (
talk) 15:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment. The articles in that category are properly in that category which appears to be a sub-cat dealing with the properties of casting sand.
Category:casting deals with casting in general. I would be happy to keep the category but we really need input from a specialist in that subject.
Twiceuponatime (
talk) 10:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
One or both of the included articles could easily be folded into the main article. That article is about sand used in foundry castings so a rename there is probably a good move.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support per nom. Other related discussion point to the need to restructure the parent. I think that the upmerge makes sense to allow a clearer view of the contents which may help create a better structure of subcategories.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 23:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Treviso
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The result of the discussion was:Keep. --Xdamrtalk 15:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Disagree as with a similar nomination a few days ago. It is perfectly clear already: the city is
Treviso, and the province is
Province of Treviso. Furthermore, why change the name of the category from the name of the main article?
Debresser (
talk) 00:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Article pages have the benefit of the article for description whereas category pages do not and therefore should be named more explicitly, with greater disambiguation. Again, it is not perfectly clear to those not familiar with Treviso, and it is for their benefit that less ambiguous naming should be used.
Mayumashu (
talk) 13:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
oppose Category pages most certainly have the benefit of description. You can easily describe what the purpose of a category is on the category page. Regardless, the main article is at
Treviso, and its categories should follow.
Resolute 15:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Regional beetle lists
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:No Consensus. --Xdamrtalk 17:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Wouldn't it be better to name such categories unanimously. While majority of categories use the following form: [[List of {{taxon}}}s]], I suggest us to move this category to the
Category:Lists of beetles and make "
Category:Regional beetle lists" a redirect to it. Moreover, the subcategories of the category we are discussing use such a form. Please express your opinions about that. --
WisconsusTALK|things 14:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Free game modification tools
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: I think this one was missed when all the 'game' -> 'video game' happened. It's obvious this category means 'video games'. (This category might also be deleted altogether, but I'm not sure that's needed here.)
DanielPharos (
talk) 11:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I would support renaming this category, but I strongly doubt whether we should keep such a category at all. So far, it has got only 1 article belonging to it, so it should be proposed for deletion according to the rules of the
categorization, unless more articles (or subcategories) will be put into this category. --
WisconsusTALK|things 14:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge - to
Category:Video game modification tools unless it can be shown by the close of the CFD that there is a likelihood that the category can be appropriately populated. If so, then rename per nom.
Otto4711 (
talk) 04:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment Whether a tool is free could also be expressed by adding it to the free software category, I guess. Also, the category will remain extremely small: there aren't that many tools which have an open license. So that means the category should be upmerged? --
DanielPharos (
talk) 10:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Gundam factions
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Delete. --Xdamrtalk 15:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge (each will have to be individually reviewed to determine appropriate targets, as nom points out) and then delete. Actually, it may have been better to ask specifically about this at
WT:GUNDAM, get a concrete plan of action, and then present it here in the nom. 「
ダイノガイ千?!」? ·
Talk⇒Dinoguy1000 18:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Upmerge yea that how it should handled. Crazy over categorization --
KrebMarkt 19:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete These articles do not belong in
Category:Gundam and they are already categorized into their appropriate series specific categories. What to do with the articles from there should be left to the cleanup teams. --Farix (
Talk) 22:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per Farix since there are no appropriate upmerge targets.
G.A.Stalk 17:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:AfC submissions by reviewer (and all subcategories)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
WP:AFC is an important process and those involved deserve thanks. However, with very limited exceptions, categories are strictly for encyclopaedic and maintenance purposes. The advent of hidden categories does not give carte blanche to disregard past precedents and consensus.
Nominator's rationale:Delete - This is a newly created category tree that I feel is a bad idea and sets a dangerous precedent if allowed to stay, so I thought I would nip this in the bud before it got any larger. Basically, this category tree allows for an individualized category for every user who has ever created an article via a request at
WP:AFC, and if this tree were complete, every article talk page of every article ever created via
WP:AFC would have a category on it identifying the user that created that page. In the hope that there was actually some encyclopedic purpose for maintaining such a categorization scheme that I overlooked, I asked the creator of this tree what purpose this had. He stated that it was "simply to help give some recognition for the work done by members of
WP:WPAFC". While I think we can all appreciate the work being done by the users participating in this project, I would strongly object to the use of categories to recognize them. This is because categories should have an encyclopedic purpose behind them, we should not be using categories for recognition purposes.
We've deleted numerous similar user categories created for recognition purposes, and I think this philosophy would translate over even moreso for article categories. I also fear that keeping this category would be absolutely no different than keeping any number of other "recognition" categories, ranging anywhere from
Category:Articles significantly edited by User:xyz,
Category:Articles nominated for featured status by User:xyz,
Category:Pages patrolled by User:xyz, to even simply
Category:Articles created by User:xyz. I think when we start creating individual categories for each user based on their accomplishments, and start adding article talk pages to these categories, we begin flirting with violating
WP:OWN, in addition to creating a bunch of unencyclopedic categories that are solely there for "recognition". The categories are hidden, true, but that only makes it so the average user doesn't see them when going to the talk page. The advent of the "hidden" feature does not give us a free pass to start creating otherwise unencyclopedic categories, IMO, and the fact that they are marked as hidden doesn't really address any of my issues with the tree. Once again, I think we can all appreciate the work that is being done, but I see no reason why this information couldn't be on each individual's user page, or even on a Wikipedia space subpage of the Wikiproject that maintains a list. There is absoultely no encyclopedic reason to specifically seek out, via use of a category, all categories created via AfC by a particular user, and thus this tree should be deleted.
VegaDark (
talk) 04:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support nom, all of whose points are compelling.
Occuli (
talk) 08:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep. This is an interesting nomination and the concerns are understandable, but I don't believe these categories are harmful in any way. A few points:
Categories do not have to be "encyclopedic" (depending on what that means). For example we have thousands of maintenance categories which help to keep track of pages and are not designed for readers of the encyclopedia. From this perspective, I see little difference in the categories
Category:AfC submissions by date,
Category:AFC submissions by status and
Category:AfC submissions by reviewer actually. To me, categorising articles by date and status is equally valuable to tracking by reviewer.
Many users maintain lists of articles that they have created or worked on. This is little different to that, except that it is in category space rather than user space. The reason that categories are used here is that they are the cleanest and neatest method of doing so, being maintained automatically using templates and parser functions. If it was possible to use user or project space then we would, but there is only one category namespace!
Hidden categories are perfectly suited to this purpose, in my opinion. They are all invisible by default and editors who dislike the clutter can choose to deselect that option in their preferences. Note also that the categories contain talk pages and not the articles themselves (they are not "article categories" as claimed).
— Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 11:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I would distinguish maitenance categories from the categories at hand. True, maitenance categories are not encyclopedic per se, but they do directly benefit the encyclopedia by existing, signifying something that needs to be done (actually, looking at the other examples you cite, the "by date" category doesn't seem to have much benefit to the encyclopedia either), while the "by status" category has the benefit of showing what still needs to be dealt with. I can't see such a benefit for for the "by reviewer" tree.
VegaDark (
talk) 19:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I don't believe you have ever worked in the WikiProject, so it might seem somewhat presumptuous to tell us what is and is not useful. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 09:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Yes, of course.
Johnbod (
talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep We give credit for featured articles, good articles, Did You Know? and all sorts of other areas where many people may have been involved with an article, but one person gets credit for taking the bull by the horns and creating or improving the article. AfC is an important process that allows for creation of articles based on material provided by other editors, providing a safety valve to allow quality, properly-structured articles to be developed rather than having people create poor-quality junk that ends up getting deleted and pissing off new editors who can't understand why their article can't remain. The tags are on the talk pages and would not interfere in any way with navigation. While some here believe that the category world is what drives Wikipedia, it is actually articles that make it an encyclopedia, and we should be giving far more credit to those who actually create content.
Alansohn (
talk) 15:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
We give credit for featured articles, good articles, Did You Know? and all sorts of other areas where many people may have been involved with an article - True, the difference is that none of these other areas have categories for this recognition. Keeping this tree would allow for a category for each of those areas and any other area someone could think of, and the rationale for keeping those would be no different. Most of your comment revolves around the benefits of the AfC process, which shouldn't IMO be the focal point at all for this nom. As I already said they are doing good work, and do deserve recognition, I just don't think this recognition should be through categories. I would oppose the creation of a similar tree for any other area on Wikipedia, whether it be users who create/nominate featured articles/lists/portals/files, or potentially infinite other areas. Taking it to an extreme, you could potentially have a category tree for users who have simply edited an article, leaving the possibility for thousands of hidden "Articles edited by User:xyz" categories on the talk page. Where do you draw the line? What rationale for keeping this would bar creation of such an "articles edited" tree (which I assume nobody wants to see pop up) without creating a double standard?
VegaDark (
talk) 19:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator, counterarguments notwithstanding.
Debresser (
talk) 00:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep - there must be other ways of doing this too. I would be happy with a user subpage that was populated with the list. This list gives me an opportunity to go back and further improve the articles I have created. I don't count it as recognition. Currently
Category:AfC submissions by reviewer/Graeme Bartlett has 741 articles in it. So I may be one of the bigger targets for this. EarwigBot I is the machine populating the cats.
Graeme Bartlett (
talk) 05:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment -- I cannot see the point of this. I usually add articles that I have created or on which I have worked to my watchlist. I can see what i have done on My contributions. Why more?
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep if possible in some form, but preferably not as a talk (let alone article) page cat.
Johnbod (
talk) 22:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment - It seems like both Graeme Bartlett and Johnbod's keep rationales actually support my nomination. there must be other ways of doing this too. I would be happy with a user subpage that was populated with the list. and Keep if possible in some form, but preferably not as a talk (let alone article) page cat - I agree with both of these statements. We can keep these on a user subpage or a wikiproject subpage. It sounds like users are responding more as if this were a proposal to do away with giving recognition to these users or removing the lists entirely, which I don't want at all. I'm simply concerned with the category system employed. I agree, keep giving recognition (via another method), and keep this info either in userspace or projectspace- but delete the categories.
VegaDark (
talk) 19:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Comment: I have now started the process of depopulating these categories prior to their deletion. Creating
User:MSGJ/AfC reviews took my >20 mins and cannot be updated without the use of a bot. Ah, well. I think what we need is a "super-hidden" category which will never be displayed on the page itself. Then all concerns would seem to be satisifed. — Martin (
MSGJ ·
talk) 09:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Jeju
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename all per nom. --Xdamrtalk 15:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: for disambiguation from
Jeju-siMayumashu (
talk) 02:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Mute Math Singles
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Rename per above.
Occuli (
talk) 09:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
I changed it already before seeing this. It was a simple change and didn't think this was needed. Sorry. --
Wolfer68 (
talk) 03:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Albums produced by Kara DioGuardi
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Nominator has not stated a desired outcome for this debate. Having consulted some chicken entrails, my divining rod, and the template on the category page, I think delete is what he would have wanted... --17:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Nominator's rationale: Precedent is that, with subcategories of
Category:Albums by producer, the producer must have several solo production credits to warrant a category. Kara DioGuardi does not. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (
Many otters •
One bat •
One hammer) 01:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
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Category:Fictional people with albinism
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
For renaming: For consistency with the
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature (see e.g.
Category:Fictional characters with dwarfism). The main article for this category is
Albinism in popular culture; since
albinism is not limited to people (i.e. humans), especially in the imaginations of fiction writers, the current title has resulted in several cases of miscategorization or questionable categorization. For instance, the
Crawlers from The Descent series are identified as humanoids, but it seems inaccurate to describe them as "people"; the same could be said of the
Morlocks. Fictional albinos can also be aliens (e.g.
Mojo from
Marvel Comics), animals (e.g.
Pure Ferret), and anything else that writers can imagine.
For listifying: In many cases this category seems to be added to any article about a fictional character with abnormally white or pale skin, hair, or eyes (e.g. until recently, the
Wraith from Stargate were in the category), even though it is not uncommon for writers to ascribe abnormal physical characteristics to their fictional characters. Assuming that the creator of said characters intended this to be a form of albinism runs afoul of our prohibition of
original research. For this reason, because we are attempting to connect—through personal visual observation—a real-world condition with the physical appearance of a fictional character, a list could do a much better job of presenting this information. Unlike a category, a list could provide (sourced) commentary to explain and justify the affiliation of a particular character with albinism. And while it is true that list and categories can complement each other, they should not always do so, particularly when one (in this case, the category) is inherently problematic.
Listify per persuasive arguments. Good nom, BF.
Grutness...wha? 00:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Support Rename to
Category:Fictional characters with albinism to match this defining characteristic to other subcats in the parent
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature. The entire category system in Wikipedia depends on our ability to accurately determine if articles belong in a category, something that is not unique to this category, and every category is at risk of inaccurate categorization. No category can include references, affiliations or descriptions and arguments based on the lack of such references apply to the entire system, with no relevance to justifying deletion of this one. By using descriptions by the author or in other reliable and verifiable sources about the work describing a character as an albino as our gold standard, we have absolutely no issue with the much-feared
WP:OR problem. If particular entries have been improperly categorized, dealing with the issue at the article level by removing the article from the category would be far less disruptive than deleting the entire category. If there is a genuine fear of miscategorization based on light-skinned characters being termed as albinos based on original research, we have a problem that pollutes all of the parent
Category:Fictional characters by physical feature and the entire category system. We can use the category system to group articles by defining characteristics (such as this one) and allow similar articles to be accessed by navigating through categories or we can use arguments that apply to all categories and pick categories off randomly one at a time. If this argument will be pursued, why not chop down the entire
Category:Fictional characters structure and solve the imagined "problem" rather than leave some categories to survive that have the exact same set of purported issues?
Alansohn (
talk) 04:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
We could create
Category:Fictional albino animals (it would, however, contain few articles) as a subcategory of
Category:Albino animals (since albinism in animals is a real phenomenon), but we cannot do the same for fictional humanoids, fictional aliens, and other fictional creatures that do not have real-world albino counterparts. On the issue of original research (and partly in response to Alansohn): I do not think that the OR problems associated with a category for fictional albino characters are insurmountable—rigorous source-checking and enforcement of
Wikipedia:No original research at the article level, which is much more difficult to do in practice than in theory, would solve the problem—but I do think that they are significantly more pronounced than those associated with a category for albino people. In the case of real people and animals, albinism can be confirmed by a medical professional or with genetic testing. In the case of fictional characters, albinism can be confirmed only if the character's creator explicitly identifies the character as an albino (otherwise, it amounts to personal or secondary speculation). –BLACK FALCON(
TALK) 16:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Keep -- This is a rational name for the category. Anything with "popular culture" in it smacks of a variety of trivia that was deleted wholesale a couple of years ago.
Peterkingiron (
talk) 16:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Can you clarify, please, to what the "it" in "anything with 'popular culture' in it" refers? My guess is that you are writing about page titles, but I'm not sure whether you mean article titles or category titles... Thanks, –BLACK FALCON(
TALK) 07:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)reply
Oppose listifying - "Foo in popular culture" articles almost invariably become crap magnets, as editors dash to their computers every time they spot a Foo to add it, regardless of whether the fictional Foo has the slightest significance to the fiction or to the real world. No terribly strong opinion on the name of the category although being albino is not something I particularly think about when considering fictional characters. YMMV.
Otto4711 (
talk) 18:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.