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Category:1971-72 South African cricket season
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The result of the debate was keep. As was pointed out, if the articles are suspect, deal with them at
WP:AFD, not here. If/when they get deleted, then renominate the category (or speedy it as empty).
Kbdank7114:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete, All articles lack sources though it is clear that the material has been copied verbatim from a single source book, probably an annual published in South Africa in 1972. The category adds no value to the project and can only be described as someone's "hobby-horse".
BlackJack20:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Keep Lack of sources in the articles is irrelevant. Though I'm no fan of such hobby-horsing ("All science is physics. The rest is stamp collecting" as Schrödinger said:), it does is a meaningful category--
Victor falk20:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
You'v got the process back-to-front. That quite is v useful, but it refers to articles. If and when the articles are deleted, then delete the category, but until then it's needed to group them. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Immediate delete due to there being no sources at all, let alone authoritative sources. Incidentally, this stuff did not come from
Wisden Cricketers' Almanack and I suspect (as per the nominator) that it was lifted direct from some contemporary magazine, so hardly authoritative and in all probability a breach of copyright too! The topic of sources was recently discussed by
WT:CRIC and the project will henceforward try and ensure the use of authoritative sources in all cricket articles.
Fiddlers Three06:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Asteroid categories
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Keep pending opinions from some professionals. Don't we now have both asteroids and minor planets? If so, then we probably need a split into two categories rather then a rename.
Vegaswikian21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
We have
minor planets,
asteroids,
dwarf planets (of which Pluto is one) and more. It would be nice to have some informed opinions in the mix, but at the very least shouldn't we have the category match the source used to create it in the first place? I'm thinking also of the list page I'd like to create that can briefly summarize the less notable observatories that don't warrant an article of their own and hence can't be members of the category (though many red links will cause them to keep showing up at the top of the "Most wanted articles" list, so something should be the target of those red links.) --
Sapphic00:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
If these are really misclassified and it is simply creating new categories to correctly reclassify some of these articles then we don't need to discuss that here. Someone who understands this can simply create the new categories, move in the correct articles and be done with it. The same would apply to the parents for these various categories. I'm not sure if they would be under one parent or what. I'll wait for the experts to sort that out.
Vegaswikian00:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
That sounds good. I've been researching this on my own (and know very little about Astronomy otherwise) and judging from
List of minor planets and other cases, I'd say that "minor planet" is the parent category here, and "asteroid" is a subcategory (along with "trans-neptunian object" and "comet" and "centaur" and others.) So I think you're probably right that a new category is in order rather than a renaming. --
Sapphic00:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
keep there are dozens of categories, lists, etc named 'asteroid'; there is no reason to just rename these two to something else.
Hmains03:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:Takarazuka related
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Category:WBT
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Category:Hectomillionaires
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Oppose The argument that "hectomillionaires" is a rarely used term is grounds for possibly renaming the category, not deleting it. Inclusion in this category (having wealth over one hundred million USD) is notable and verifiable, making the category useful.
Forbes lists and
Canadian Business magazines for example provide lists to this level[2]. Lastly, as a category, users will not include articles in it unless sufficient proof and references are provided in the article in question itself. I acknowledge that the category may be able to be improved by refining its title (to replace the 'hectomillionaire' term) or by creating sub-categories based on nationality/currencies as is done for
Category:Billionaires by nationality.
Kurieeto16:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete. Wealth is a fluid thing, and as such such a category would need to be constantly revised. Also, net worth over 100M is not as notable as it once was; "billionaire" is a much more notable level. And breaking down the sub-categories is problematic at best (the argument that similar subcategories exist for billionaires, to be honest, is an example of
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, and if someone were to nominate such categories I would probably vote to delete) -- I mean, under what nationality would you list
Conrad Black, for example?
23skidoo17:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete as 23skidoo says, exchange, property, stock market, inflation fluctuations make categorising hectomillionaires (or decamillionaires or millimillionaires (hey! I'm one!))too much of a moving target. Also "billionaires" is more a way of say "very rich people" than "personfortune≥$1000000000" for wikipedia's purposes, and
category:Very Rich People would look a bit unencyclopedic...--
Victor falk20:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete. I essentially agree with 23skidoo's arguments. I find it to be a laughably obscure term for one, and secondly, I don't think once a person crosses the threshold of $100 million (USD) in personal wealth their level of wealth becomes one bit "more defining" than it was when they had $99 million. (Side point if category is kept: shouldn't
Category:Billionaires be a sub-category of this category, rather that the other way around, as it is now?)
Snocrates20:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
And if is deleted, can't we rename "billionaire" to "kilomillionaire"? Per rationale: "It is WP:NPOV in relation with English and American differences bewteen 'milliardaire' and 'billionaire' and it sounds more Serious and Scientific and Formal and Encyclopedic per WP:STYLE". And nobody pull a WP:NAME on me, a WP:NPOV and a WP:STYLE beat a wp:name any time of the day--
Victor falk21:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:1947 video games
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So the objection is the lack of a specific article. This would clearly be a notable article and I'll try and create this from the article and other sources if I can find any.
Vegaswikian19:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Agreed about removing the categories. I did remove them, but they were restored maybe someone else can edit the article as required.
Vegaswikian05:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Keep not about a particular game, but about articles about mentioning video games in 1947. Anyways, there existed several video games. Several tic tac toes, primitive "wargames" (more game theoritical simulations, but it might be more fun than you think!), and mathematical stuff that Turing would find "amusing". --
Victor falk20:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:National Medal of Science recipients
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comment - I am generally disfavor "x award winner/laureate" categories at all, but am ambivalent about this one. NMS is arguably one of the more defining awards, but if consensus is towards deleting I wouldn't argue. --
lquilter15:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:Healthcare companies
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Scientific classification of animals
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I have modified the nomination above to indicate the targets. If I got one wrong, please correct it. The proposed names need to be listed on the nomination here.
Vegaswikian19:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:1971-72 South African cricket season
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The result of the debate was keep. As was pointed out, if the articles are suspect, deal with them at
WP:AFD, not here. If/when they get deleted, then renominate the category (or speedy it as empty).
Kbdank7114:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete, All articles lack sources though it is clear that the material has been copied verbatim from a single source book, probably an annual published in South Africa in 1972. The category adds no value to the project and can only be described as someone's "hobby-horse".
BlackJack20:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Keep Lack of sources in the articles is irrelevant. Though I'm no fan of such hobby-horsing ("All science is physics. The rest is stamp collecting" as Schrödinger said:), it does is a meaningful category--
Victor falk20:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
You'v got the process back-to-front. That quite is v useful, but it refers to articles. If and when the articles are deleted, then delete the category, but until then it's needed to group them. --
BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (
contribs)
21:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Immediate delete due to there being no sources at all, let alone authoritative sources. Incidentally, this stuff did not come from
Wisden Cricketers' Almanack and I suspect (as per the nominator) that it was lifted direct from some contemporary magazine, so hardly authoritative and in all probability a breach of copyright too! The topic of sources was recently discussed by
WT:CRIC and the project will henceforward try and ensure the use of authoritative sources in all cricket articles.
Fiddlers Three06:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Asteroid categories
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Keep pending opinions from some professionals. Don't we now have both asteroids and minor planets? If so, then we probably need a split into two categories rather then a rename.
Vegaswikian21:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
We have
minor planets,
asteroids,
dwarf planets (of which Pluto is one) and more. It would be nice to have some informed opinions in the mix, but at the very least shouldn't we have the category match the source used to create it in the first place? I'm thinking also of the list page I'd like to create that can briefly summarize the less notable observatories that don't warrant an article of their own and hence can't be members of the category (though many red links will cause them to keep showing up at the top of the "Most wanted articles" list, so something should be the target of those red links.) --
Sapphic00:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
If these are really misclassified and it is simply creating new categories to correctly reclassify some of these articles then we don't need to discuss that here. Someone who understands this can simply create the new categories, move in the correct articles and be done with it. The same would apply to the parents for these various categories. I'm not sure if they would be under one parent or what. I'll wait for the experts to sort that out.
Vegaswikian00:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
That sounds good. I've been researching this on my own (and know very little about Astronomy otherwise) and judging from
List of minor planets and other cases, I'd say that "minor planet" is the parent category here, and "asteroid" is a subcategory (along with "trans-neptunian object" and "comet" and "centaur" and others.) So I think you're probably right that a new category is in order rather than a renaming. --
Sapphic00:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)reply
keep there are dozens of categories, lists, etc named 'asteroid'; there is no reason to just rename these two to something else.
Hmains03:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:Takarazuka related
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Category:WBT
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Category:Hectomillionaires
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Oppose The argument that "hectomillionaires" is a rarely used term is grounds for possibly renaming the category, not deleting it. Inclusion in this category (having wealth over one hundred million USD) is notable and verifiable, making the category useful.
Forbes lists and
Canadian Business magazines for example provide lists to this level[2]. Lastly, as a category, users will not include articles in it unless sufficient proof and references are provided in the article in question itself. I acknowledge that the category may be able to be improved by refining its title (to replace the 'hectomillionaire' term) or by creating sub-categories based on nationality/currencies as is done for
Category:Billionaires by nationality.
Kurieeto16:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete. Wealth is a fluid thing, and as such such a category would need to be constantly revised. Also, net worth over 100M is not as notable as it once was; "billionaire" is a much more notable level. And breaking down the sub-categories is problematic at best (the argument that similar subcategories exist for billionaires, to be honest, is an example of
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, and if someone were to nominate such categories I would probably vote to delete) -- I mean, under what nationality would you list
Conrad Black, for example?
23skidoo17:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete as 23skidoo says, exchange, property, stock market, inflation fluctuations make categorising hectomillionaires (or decamillionaires or millimillionaires (hey! I'm one!))too much of a moving target. Also "billionaires" is more a way of say "very rich people" than "personfortune≥$1000000000" for wikipedia's purposes, and
category:Very Rich People would look a bit unencyclopedic...--
Victor falk20:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Delete. I essentially agree with 23skidoo's arguments. I find it to be a laughably obscure term for one, and secondly, I don't think once a person crosses the threshold of $100 million (USD) in personal wealth their level of wealth becomes one bit "more defining" than it was when they had $99 million. (Side point if category is kept: shouldn't
Category:Billionaires be a sub-category of this category, rather that the other way around, as it is now?)
Snocrates20:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
And if is deleted, can't we rename "billionaire" to "kilomillionaire"? Per rationale: "It is WP:NPOV in relation with English and American differences bewteen 'milliardaire' and 'billionaire' and it sounds more Serious and Scientific and Formal and Encyclopedic per WP:STYLE". And nobody pull a WP:NAME on me, a WP:NPOV and a WP:STYLE beat a wp:name any time of the day--
Victor falk21:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:1947 video games
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So the objection is the lack of a specific article. This would clearly be a notable article and I'll try and create this from the article and other sources if I can find any.
Vegaswikian19:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Agreed about removing the categories. I did remove them, but they were restored maybe someone else can edit the article as required.
Vegaswikian05:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)reply
Keep not about a particular game, but about articles about mentioning video games in 1947. Anyways, there existed several video games. Several tic tac toes, primitive "wargames" (more game theoritical simulations, but it might be more fun than you think!), and mathematical stuff that Turing would find "amusing". --
Victor falk20:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:National Medal of Science recipients
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comment - I am generally disfavor "x award winner/laureate" categories at all, but am ambivalent about this one. NMS is arguably one of the more defining awards, but if consensus is towards deleting I wouldn't argue. --
lquilter15:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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Category:Healthcare companies
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Scientific classification of animals
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I have modified the nomination above to indicate the targets. If I got one wrong, please correct it. The proposed names need to be listed on the nomination here.
Vegaswikian19:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)reply
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