Category:American Christians
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was keep.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
10:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:American Christians (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Ridiculously over-broad
Orange Mike
00:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep, but I agree with the nomitor that there are too many listing in such a broad category. Most, if not all, of the entries need to be sorted into subcats related to the various denomniations.
youngamerican (
ahoy hoy)
00:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Comment - of the adult population of the United States, about a third are nominal Christians. A category which encourages the gathering of that information for every American in Wiki - shudder! If people want cats for specific denominations, that's another thing altogether; but this one is totally unworkable. --
Orange Mike
00:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC) (Quaker Wikipedian)
reply
- It wouldnt be so bad when broken down by Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. and it should also be limited to those in which their religion has been a defining part of their biography. For example,
Jimmy Carter's faith as been important to how he is viewed by the public, but no one really knows or cares about, say,
Stevie Nicks.
youngamerican (
ahoy hoy)
01:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- I'd bet my last nickel that there are Stevie Nicks fans who could discourse for hours on her spiritual evolution, whether she ever really worshipped Rhiannon, etc. --
Orange Mike
01:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- In the interest of fairness, I would suggest that you also nominate all of the subcatgories of
Category:People by nationality and religion. Why delete only that category on American Christians and leave
Category:German Hindus and
Category:Brazilian Jews?
youngamerican (
ahoy hoy)
01:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- None of those categories would be one-ten-thousandth as large. --
Orange Mike
01:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- "Being too large" is not a criteria for deltion, but rather for subcategorization. That being said, Why should every other nationality/religion be categorized excpet for American Christians?
youngamerican (
ahoy hoy)
01:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Comment (for now) - Too broad to serve any useful purpose? I am afraid to ask but do we have
Category:American blacks (
Category:Black Americans),
Category:American caucasians (
Category:Causcasian Americans),
Category:American gays (
Category:Gay Americans),
Category:American straights (
Category:Straight Americans),
Category:American men (
Category:Male Americans),
Category:American women (
Category:Female Americans)? Hmm, that was fun, found one. A container. This could be used as a container, I guess? I will wait a bit before deciding. --
Justanother
01:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - It's impossible to verify a person's religion. For example, an atheist with political ambitions may claim to be (and behave as) a Christian. As OrangeMike mentions, nominal Christians are a majority in the US. There is no
Category:Indian Hindus, and for good reason: It's quite a bit redundant. I can see individual denominational categories, but these should be verified with documented memberships at the houses of worship in question. --
Son of Somebody
03:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep Part of a broader scheme.
Haddiscoe
14:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - It is so broad, it would be including a majority of Americans throughout all history. If it is kept, make it a container like
Category:American women so it only contains more specific categories.
TK421
15:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep, though try to encourage use as a container category. The main reason that the root category seems to be filling up at the moment is that it includes a lot of people whose denomination is unclear, but are identfied as "born-again Christians". If we had
ategory:American born-again Christians, the parent category would be much less cluttered. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
15:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- I don't think that's a good idea. Being "born again" has nothing to do with denomination. There are people who consider themselves "born again" among most American Protestant denominations and many Roman Catholics as well.
Ken Miller is one such Catholic. "Born again" shouldn't be used here as a substitute or equivalent for denomination; it simply isn't. There would be too much category overlap to be useful, anyway. —
coel
acan —
19:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Sadistic horror films
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
11:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Sadistic horror films (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete, This article is described as Horror films based on a character's Sadism. Couldn't, to some degree, all slasher films be described as such? After all, Freddy, Jason and Michael aren't exactly known for being humane. Highly subjective category.
CyberGhostface
22:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete no objective criteria for inclusion or exclusion.
Carlossuarez46
23:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - highly subjective --
Orange Mike
00:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom and Orangemike.--
Paloma Walker
00:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep, i guess I should've made a greater information about creating this cat, it was for the somewhat new popular trend of horror films (such as in the
Saw,
Hostel,
Turistas and similar series where the characters want to torture their victims, rather then slashers who want to just kill 'em off at random with a quick gut n' slash. Does this convince anyone? As for a term itself, the
All Movie Guide has been labeling this genre of horror films amongst it's own films as well.
Andrzejbanas
00:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Comment Is it possible you can come up with a more specific category title? The only one I can think of at the moment is "Torture Porn" but that name is very POV and demeaning. I understand the concept of the category (I.E. the Hostel/Saw films) but at the same time, it is subjective as to what is considered 'sadistic horror'. Freddy Krueger, for example, often torments his victims in their dreams before dispatching. And can't forget Pinhead, whose entire modus operandi is sadism. Even Jason has, while not as prolonged as Jigsaw, has been pretty brutal and not just a quick slash and gash.--
CyberGhostface
01:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Comment the problem here is that this is a reasonnable attempt at breaking the horror film genre into subgenres. Actually, a category for Torture porn would also be a fairly good (similar) idea. But it's quite tricky to actually corner the genre much less come up with reasonnable sources on which to base that classification.
Pascal.Tesson
02:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete subjective cat.
Doczilla
06:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom.
Haddiscoe
14:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per
Pascal.Tesson.
Wimstead
12:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete As above, the criteria is too vague. All the killers in any slasher movie are by definition sadistic. That being said, I can understand a desire to subdivide horror films by sub-genre. Perhaps a better approach is to work with one of the film projects to come up with a good set of genres that subdivide most or all of the horror genre as a whole. The only problem being that you're likely to have some difficulty assigning films to subgenre categories that don't have some relatively objective inclusion criteria.
Dugwiki
19:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Nature reserves in Norway
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was keep.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
11:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Propose renaming
Category:Nature reserves in Norway to
Category:Nature reserves of Norway
- Nominator's Rationale: Rename, should follow standard.
Berland
20:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose According to
Category:Nature reserves it is following the standard. You should pose an umbrella nomination with proper rational.
TonyTheTiger (
talk/
cont/
bio)
20:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose per convention and as a matter of logic. Apart from those countries which lay claim to part of Antarctica, I can't see how a country can have nature reserves outside its own territory, and since those claims are in a suspended state, no country can claim to have an Antarctic nature reserve. If (as it appears) this is a category of reserves within the boundaries of a nation-state, "in" seems like a much better word than "of". --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
22:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose, the rename would make it inconsistent with most others in
Category:Nature reserves. And also, perhaps
Category:Nature reserves of Costa Rica needs to be nominated for renaming to
Category:Nature reserves in Costa Rica, since it is the only other "of" left in
Category:Nature reserves (other than Azerbaijan and South Africa, which are using very different terms, but should also probably be changed to "in"). --
Seattle Skier
(talk)
20:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Female video game characters
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was keep. The category will not be tagged with {{
listify}} but there seems to be support for the idea of some form of list as a complement or eventual replacement.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
10:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Female video game characters (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
This seems to be overcategorization. Aren't half of all video game characters female? Besides, we don't have a
Category:Male video game characters or
Category:Female people, do we? I don't think a category would be very useful for organization purposes since it isn't a defining characteristic (see
Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality and
Wikipedia:Overcategorization).
Axem Titanium
19:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom.
Doczilla
19:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep - I seriously doubt that 1/2 of all video game characters are female. But why not gather them up for those that are interested? For a video game character, it is a defining characteristic, IMO. Just so long as there is just one category, please. As in, I hope there is not
Category:Female computer game characters,
Category:Female arcade game characters, etc. --
Justanother
20:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep-No, I'd find it very hard to believe that half of videogame characters are female. I can actually see a great deal of value in this category.
Bladestorm
20:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep a quick scan of
Category:Video game characters and its subcats suggests that female characters are very much in the minority. This category does appear to be underpopulated, but it also appears to meet
WP:CATGRS. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
22:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - In general sorting by gender situations, I often suggest writing an article on the topic instead of using a category to collect related articles. This category says nothing about the phenomenon of women appearing in video games; all it indicates is that women do appear in such games. An article would be able to explain why this is an important topic and could cite specific examples that are of greater interest. (Also, about half of my
sims are female. :) )
Dr. Submillimeter
07:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- An article would accomplish much and would complement this well, but there's no reason to turn a topical article into a hybrid article/list, so it's best to keep this category as is. It would best complement such an article in its current form. —
coel
acan —
17:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep Agree with above that an article on this topic is a good idea. The absence of one shouldn't be automatic grounds for the category's deletion, however. The nom's point of example, which essentially takes "Female" to the common denominator of "human" goes against plenty of gender category precedents elsewhere, at different levels, varying from world leaders to the variety of sub-cats at
Category:Women's sports to
Category:Women in comics--
Keefer4 |
Talk
07:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- In this case, and in most cases regarding fictional characters, "female" is the correct categorization, rather than "women". Take for example
Ōkami, in which the player's character is the
Shinto sun goddess
Amaterasu incarnated in the statue of a wolf. Among wolf, statue, goddess, and sun, none are "women", but she is female. This is one example, but it's generally problematic to assume that female characters in fiction are women. —
coel
acan —
18:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Yeah, actually my point wasn't about the categorization style, it was more about comparing the existing cats against the nominator's examples at the top. But that is interesting to know, and essential to consider when categorizing this type of thing. Thx.--
Keefer4 |
Talk
03:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete Overcategorization.
Garion96
(talk)
10:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete Does not meet [WP:CATGRS]].
AshbyJnr
20:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Garion96 and AshbyJnr, you're welcome to substantiate these assertions. —
coel
acan —
17:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom.
Wimstead
12:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Weak keep My inclination here is to keep the category at least temporarily because it appears that there is the potential for an interesting main article associated with the topic of female character in video games. I bet how women are or aren't portrayed in video games versus real life women and their portrayal in other art media would be a good topic, and that topic would be well served by this category for readers to use for reference. And in regards to gender specific subcategories we do allow for an exception when there is a significant difference between how men and women are portrayed within the category.
- So my advice is to temporarilly keep the category and allow for the creation by interested editors above on an associated main article discussing gender differences in video gaming. Then if necessary revisit this cfd discussion in a few months once (or if) that article is written and see what the editors think.
Dugwiki
19:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per guidelines on categorizing gender. Prominent female video game characters are not uncommon, especially in games in genres like fighting where the female characters tend to make up about a third or more of the cast. -
Sean Curtin
05:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Interesting that fighting games, which always portray women as sexy and underclothed, would have more female playable characters than other genres. And the fighting game spin-off,
Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, probably featured female playable characters exclusively because the male characters from the Dead or Alive series just aren't any good at volleyball. —
coel
acan —
17:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep. Prominent female playable characters are not uncommon in 2007, but they were in 1997, and they basically did not exist in 1987 (females were almost exclusively
NPCs then, with the only exception I can think of being
Samus Aran). It was even a deliberate surprise orchestrated by the developers, when a player finished
Metroid and Samus took off her helmet, before which it was assumed she was male. Samus was then sexualized and portrayed in a bikini, if the player had achieved the fastest victory. The mere existence of female playable characters was surprising then, and it is still surprising today to see a non-sexualized female character. Where are the female characters wearing baggy, comfortable clothing? What is relevant and has been studied are the developers' portrayals of women and players' perceptions of female characters. This is discussed
in
the
media, and by scholars. See
this abstract, and the references section of this
student essay, which would guide you to many more scholarly studies. Female characters are portrayed very differently than male characters, which makes this a useful categorization scheme for navigation, and the topic is studied extensively. There's really no question that it meets
WP:CATGRS. —
coel
acan —
17:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Listify and Delete. Coelacan has a good point, and that is precisely why we need an article on the history of female characters in computer gaming, rather than a cat that contains all that happen to be female.
>Radiant<
11:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
-
- The portrayals of playable characters are hardly the only important portrayals. NPCs like
Princess Zelda are just as important to the study of the portrayal of females in games. There's no reason why the category should be limited to playable characters. And again, you're not saying why it should be an article instead of a category, rather than an article and a category. The category is a useful way to link the topic up from various article pages. —
coel
acan —
21:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Weak keep Seems to be a manageable number of associated (and potentially associated) characters/articles, considering the male-character-dominated world of video games. Relatedly, this male character domination does make, IMHO, the category reasonably notable and encyclopedic. —
Catdude
18:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep Although they are not as rare as they used to be, female characters are still underrepresented and have a strong effect on girls who play games. For me growing(at least), winning Metroid and finding out that Samus was a woman was wonderful. I've spoken to several women who had similar experiences with it, and it helped keep us interested in gaming as girls. It's worthwhile to both have an article on the subject as well as keep this category. ---
The Bethling
(Talk)
02:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep per above. --
Lancini87
03:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep as per relevance.
Ex-Nintendo Employee
04:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Listify regardless of delete or keep result. It will be informative to list female characters by year of introduction, with regards to
Coelacan's comments above. I'll be happy to help with this.
Marasmusine
16:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete As one of the users in favor of retention has admitted, the justification for this category is obselete.
Wilchett
02:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Aircraft manufactured by the Soviet Union
Category:DC comics time travelers
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
11:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:DC comics time travelers (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:1988-1992 House Music & Culture
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
10:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete, or at least Rename to
Category:Maritime Junior A Hockey League venues. --
Prove It
(talk)
15:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Rename per nom, small but valid enough.
Recury
16:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - haven't we been deleting venue categories for sporting events, on the theory that any arena could potentially be a venue?
Otto4711
16:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Rename - The rename is needed for clarity. The guideline at
WP:OCAT states that categories that specify the regular use of facilities are acceptable. This category meets that criterion (unless you would also like to try nominating
Category:National Hockey League venues for deletion).
Dr. Submillimeter
16:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete (Rename if kept) - I'm not sure what the right way is to subdivide Sports venues, but it isn't by which leagues have/are using them. ~
Bigr
Tex
18:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete, would seem to fall under
WP:OCAT, per what Otto said.
>Radiant<
11:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was rename
Category:Women to Seek U.S. Presidency from a Major Party to
Category:Female United States presidential candidates.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
15:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete, as gendered, or at least suggest a less awkward name if you want to keep it. --
Prove It
(talk)
14:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Strong keep and Rename to
Category:Female United States presidential candidates per parent
Category:United States presidential candidates; there are separate sub-cats for those who win the nomination, and for now there are not enough female contenders to justify separating out the major party candidates. (If and when there are, I suggest categorising them separately as Republican and Democrat.)
I do wish that CfD nominations would not simply cite "gendered" as grounds for deletion:
WP:CATGRS does not simply deprecate all gendered categories, it sets a few tests for them to meet, and one of them is rarity. The example cited is directly relevant to this nomination: "a female heads of government category is valid as a topic of special encyclopedic interest." There has never been a female president or vice-president of the United States, and the only woman to win the vice-presidential nomination of either party was
Geraldine Ferraro, back in 1984; no woman has ever been nominated for the US presidency. What's going on here, that so many gendered categories are nominated without reference to the relevant guideline? I want to
assume good faith, but I think that an explanation would be helpful in sustaining that assumption. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
18:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom as gender category.
Haddiscoe
19:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- And what about the guidelines? --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- With your proposed rename, it doesn't meet the guidelines, as it incorporates women whose tally of votes was unremarkable. Anyway, the guidelines is incompatible with the policy of neutrality, so as far as I am concerned it is void.
Haddiscoe
14:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Let's take those points one-by-one:
- If the women concerned are unremarkable, they should not have articles on wikipedia. If they have articles, then they are already in
Category:United States presidential candidates, which is also overwhelmingly male. If you are arguing that all minority candidates are non-notable, that's a separate discussion; but since we have plenty of articles on minority candidates, the women meet
WP:CATGRS by being in a minority of
Category:United States presidential candidates.
- Wikipedia's
neutrality policy is based on "representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". I'm not aware of any significant published views arguing that
Hilary Clinton or
Geraldine Ferraro are not female, so there is no failure here to represent different views.
- The only way that I can see in which this category could be argued to be non-neutral is that there is no equivalent male-only category. But there plenty of other cases in wikipedia where we sub-categorise articles by a minority attribute if that is relevant. Your objection appears to be basically that you don't believe gender is relevant: so presumably you believe that it's pure coincidence that the vast majority of American presidential candidates are drawn from one gender and not the other.
- If you believe that a guideline is void, argue for its removal. However, wikipedia works by consensus, so unless and until there is a consensus to void the guideline it stands, whether or not you dislike it. If individual editors are free to just reject guidelines outright because they don't like them, we might as well not have them ... but that's a policy issue (see
Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, which describes guidelines as "actionable" and permits "the occasional exception", but not outright rejection). --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
16:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep and rename as per BrownHairedGirl --
Orange Mike
00:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- keep but rename. Current titles seems to be predicting the future!
Pascal.Tesson
02:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep Keep and rename per points above. Also,
Category:Female heads of state exist, this isn't far removed.--
Keefer4 |
Talk
02:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Rename
Category:Female United States presidential candidates - This is one of the few gender-based occupation categories where gender is useful (mainly because gender still plays an important role in the public's perceptions of political candidates). The category should be kept, but a more sensible name is needed.
Dr. Submillimeter
07:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Rename to
Category:Female United States presidential candidates. I would add more, but BrownHairedGirl's reply to Haddiscoe covers everything. —
coel
acan —
19:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete or at least leave at current name, which has an importance standard. Guidelines are just guidelines, and can be overruled as
User_talk:BrownHairedGirl admits. Some of
User_talk:BrownHairedGirl's points are absurd, eg (1) would be equally valid for every biographical category that could exist.
AshbyJnr
21:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Women being a tiny minority is not a universal case; the basic biographical categories (by year of birth etc) are roughly evenly split in most populations, and while wikipedia is probably more male-fucused, there are many occupations when men are in a minority (e.g.
Category:Nurses); and the other test of whether a gendered category should exist is whether there can be a substantive head article, which there clearly can in this case. You misunderstand my point about guidelines, and really should read
Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines; it permits "the occasional exception", which is not the same as ignoring them. Why should this category be one of those "occasional exceptions"? BTW, all the notability guidelines which are so widely used in CFD are just guidelines, as are
WP:CAT and
WP:OCAT. If CfD discussions were to treat guidelines as purely a personal choice, then
WP:CAT and
WP:OCAT would also be optional. Do you really think that's a good idea? Because we can't have it both ways. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
01:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- BrownHairedGirl's point (1) was only a direct response to the claim that "it incorporates women whose tally of votes was unremarkable". It specifically relates to this discussion and would not automatically apply everywhere. Besides that, a very minor objection, you've made no argument as to why the guideline should not apply in this case. I often argue against specific implementations of this guideline, and I'll tell you right now, "it's just a guideline" does not automatically translate to "so we should ignore it". You have to make that specific case. —
coel
acan —
18:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Finally, your desire to implement an "importance standard", as you call it, is not a method we use on Wikipedia. The current name has serious
WP:PEACOCK problems, as do all "important" or "notable" titles (most of which have already been de-peacocked). —
coel
acan —
18:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete POV-pushing category.
Wimstead
12:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Where exactly is the POV in noting that people of one gender are a rarity in presidential candidacies? There are plenty of POVs on the merits of this situation, but are you seriously arguing that it is POV to observe that women are in a tiny minority here? --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
12:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- I don't know how to say this without coming off as a
dick, but there's no merit to your assertion, Wimstead, and unless you substantiate your claim, it will have to be ignored. —
coel
acan —
18:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Natives of Rio Grande do Sul
Category:Natives of Sao Paulo state
Category:Fictional time travelers
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Fictional time travelers - For the same reasons as interdimensional travelers, below. (Noting that Philip J. Fry is a member. Being cryofrozen or in suspended animation means travelling through time? KHA-A-A-N! : ) -
jc37
13:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - as nominator. -
jc37
13:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - So many science fiction / comic book characters are time travelers that this is not a defining characteristic of the characters. Most of the X-Men have probably been time travelers at one time or another (if they are not already from the future). Even
Squidward Tentacles is listed as a time traveler!
Dr. Submillimeter
16:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete Definitely a case of being to vague to be useful. There are cases where this is a primary schitck for a character (The Doctor, Kang, and Professor Zoom jump to mind) but both the cat title and criteria need to be very, very tightly worded for that to work. I almost think a list would work better. —
J Greb
18:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete overly broad category. Cases like suspended animation invoke POV. Every superhero has traveled through time at least once.
Doczilla
19:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete per nom. Besides there are no real ones....
Carlossuarez46
23:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Is there a list? If not, listify with the deletion - it is notable information as it's so frequently used in science fiction/fantasy, as you said.~
Zythe
Talk to me!
21:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Fictional interdimensional travelers
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Fictional interdimensional travelers - Is it because they walked through an ancient mystic portal? utilised a tardis? shifted between planes of existence? Went through a wormhole? Entered DC Comic's Anti-matter universe? This category could potentially include every character in science fiction and fantasy, without ever describing the means of the travel and transport. And for many characters, the fact that they have travelled in such a way is not an inherent trait of their character (Jean-Luc Picard, for example). -
jc37
13:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete, as nominator - Listify if you must, but I think deletion is better in this case. -
jc37
13:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete - I think I previously nominated this, but the nomination reached no consensus or keep. Again, this happens so often in science fiction and comic books that it is not a defining characteristic. Again, most of the X-Men (probably most of the Avengers, too) would probably fall in this category.
Dr. Submillimeter
16:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete Definitely a case of being to vague to be useful. There are cases where this is a primary schitck for a character (Aahz and Skeeve of Asprin's Myth... series jump to mind) but both the cat title and criteria need to be very, very tightly worded for that to work. I almost think a list would work better. —
J Greb
18:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete phenomenally broad category.
Doczilla
19:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete phenomenally bad category.
Carlossuarez46
23:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Fictional clones
Category:Fictional doppelgängers
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was listify and delete
Category:Fictional doppelgängers, no consensus on
Category:Fictional clones.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
15:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Fictional doppelgängers - This "evil twin" category simply needs to be listified. It's just not clear in every case who the "good twin" is. This is a prime example of where a List is better than a Category (per
WP:CLS). -
jc37
13:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Listify and then Delete - as nominator. -
jc37
13:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Listify & Delete especially since the term is used to identify "twins" and "analogues". Listing will allow separation of the two types, and the potential to cite how analogues are identified. -
J Greb
18:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Listify and delete per above.
Doczilla
19:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete not even sure that these ought to be listified.
Carlossuarez46
23:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
Delete - This category contains such articles as robotic versions of other characters (
Mechagodzilla), alternate-reality versions of characters (
Ice-Man (comics)), clones (
Evil Jimmy), characters that impersonate other characters (
Batman Jones), and other characters who do not really fit into any of the above descriptions (
Venom (comics)). Grouping them all together is inappropriate; the characters are only vaguely related. Some of them do not really function as doppelgangers, either. Note that
Category:Fictional clones exists for categorizing the clones and that other categories for more specific types of characters could be created.
Dr. Submillimeter
07:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Honestly, If we end up listifying this one, I think "clones" should go the same route, and possibly merged with this list (doppelgangers, evil twins, analogues, and clones). Adding a tag to Clones, since the nom has just begun : ) -
jc37
09:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep fictional doppelgangers and tighten the definition. Keep fictional clones. Both are defining characteristics.
Otto4711
22:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete doppelgangers, keep clones. The former is a matter of debate for many cases; the latter is not. -
Sean Curtin
05:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Fictional symbionts
Category:Fictional possessed
Category:Fictional cursed characters
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Fictional cursed characters - While I think I know what the introduction is talking about, I think the category is too vague in its inclusion criteria. For example, the frog who turned into a prince when kissed "was" cursed, but no longer is. But thanks to "literary present tense", he'll always be cursed on Wikipedia : ) - In addition, there simply are innumerable examples of "cursed" characters, as a standard literary plot device. -
jc37
13:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Parks in New Hampshire
Category:Cornish organisations
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: withdraw, suggest further discussion on standard.
>Radiant<
09:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
Upmerge per standard, to "Streets and squares in <foo>". The entire category tree
Category:Streets and squares by city works like that, but for these three cities that has been split into a "street" part and a "square" part, which isn't particularly useful.
>Radiant<
09:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose. Boston, Mexico City, Rome, and Vancouver also have subdivided to separate streets and squares. Other cities, like Moscow and Paris have different subcats of "Category:Streets and squares in foo." Many others don't subdivide "Category:Streets and squares," but instead don't use it at all: Adelaide, Brisbane, Canberra, Chicago, Dallas, Frankfurt, Gatineau, Hiroshima, Hobart, Hong Kong, Kolkata, Liverpool, Los Angeles, Melbourne, Minneapolis, Montreal, Mumbai, Ottawa, Philadelphia, San Francisco, St. John’s, Windsor, Ontario, Sydney, Toronto, Washington, D.C. No such standard exists, there is no breach of Wikipedia convention, consensus decision, guideline. These subcategories are perfectly consistent with the category scheme and naming conventions, and subcategories generally help, rather than hinder, navigation.
Bobanny
00:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose Merging these is not necessarily conducive to easier navigation, and in fact the terms are far from synonymous. Theoretically one could merge right up to one category for the encyclopedia using this logic.--
Keefer4 |
Talk
01:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose per Keefer4. "Streets and squares" is the parent category, and these cities conform to that convention, but the subcats seem useful. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
06:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose per all above
Johnbod
11:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose — no need to merge. This also allows separate hierarchies to exist for just streets or just squares. A square in London probably has more in common with a square in Berlin than a street in Oxford. --
Stemonitis
08:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: withdraw, suggest further discussion on standard.
>Radiant<
09:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
Upmerge per standard, to "Streets and squares in <foo>". The entire category tree
Category:Streets and squares by city works like that, but for these three cities that has been split into a "street" part and a "square" part, which isn't particularly useful.
>Radiant<
09:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose, especially for London.
Category:Squares in London is very well populated, and the London square is a subject in its own right. There are books about it, and there is an "Open Squares Weekend" every year. All the London squares need to be in one category, and
Category:Streets in London has begun to be split by borough.
Hawkestone
10:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose Given we're talking about London here - and there's a fair bit of work still to be done across London - I think there would a danger of creating a category with too many items for it to be useful to those trying to find anything. Presumably that would then create a request in the future for disaggregation. Interestingly, if you put London Streets into the search it produces a list with
Streets of London the song very near the top. This page in turn has no reference to a category called
Category:Streets in London. Might it be useful to cross-refer at the top of each category to the other?
Cosmopolitancats
17:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose merger per Hawkestone. London has enough architecturally and culturally notable squares to justify a split category. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
18:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose. Streets and squares are not synonymous, and subcategories are a way to make an article's categories more precise and therefore more, not less, useful for navigating Wikipedia. (See
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) for the importance of precise names). All subcats work this way; "per standard" doesn't explain how the opposite is true. Wikipedia is not a
Newspeak dictionary, and the category structure will and should grow with subcategories like these.
Bobanny
00:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose. Per all reasons stated above.--
Keefer4 |
Talk
01:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Oppose per Hawkestone et al
Johnbod
11:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Strong Oppose per Hawkestone et al. Rgds, -
Trident13
12:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Video game flops
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Video game flops (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Not objectively defined.
Combination
08:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. This categorization is entirely subjective. The category right now seems to just be populated with bad games. ---
RockMFR
14:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. "Flop" is a slangy and vague term, and although this could be renamed using the less tabloid term "commercial failure", that is poorly defined in
List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming, which says: For the sake of scope, a commercial failure for a video game hardware platform is generally defined as a system that either fails to become adopted by a significant portion of the gaming market place, or fails to win significant mindshare of the target audience.
Unfortunately, there is no definition of "significant", and I can't see any way of setting threshold which isn't arbitrary. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
18:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete no objective criteria for inclusion or exclusion.
Carlossuarez46
23:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete
WP:POV. As mentioned above, this is a very subjective term. Unlike, the well referenced
List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming, this category has no defined criteria. I am creating a better category,
Category:Notable video game failures, that only lists games in the aforementioned article. —
Mitaphane
?|
!
01:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete as subjective.
Otto4711
23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Delete. This is not well-defined or NPOV and should be deleted together with
Entertainment flops (
talk) and its other subcategories listing "flops". –
Chip Zero
09:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Berlin metro stations
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:MySpace people (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete - with the exception of a couple of MySpace execs, the categroy is for people who are otherwise not notable except for having myspace accounts. The executives can be housed in the appropriate executive categories. If the people with myspace accounts are somehow actually notable then they can be put in the internet celebrity category.
Otto4711
06:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Krusty Krab (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete - a category for a fictional restaurant. The main article serves as an appropriate navigational hub for the fictional restaurant so there is no need for a category.
Otto4711
05:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:US Presidents from Ohio
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Wise Men (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete - the lead article
The Wise Men serves as an appropriate navigational hub. This is overcategorization.
Otto4711
03:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Brown Brothers Harriman partners
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Brown Brothers Harriman partners (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete - a comprehensive list exists in the article for the company and the individual articles link to the company article. There is no need for this category as a navigational hub.
Otto4711
03:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Horn Book editors
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was delete.
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
12:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Horn Book editors (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete - I merged several stub articles from the category into
List of Horn Book Magazine editors and linked it to the main magazine article. The list article and the one substantive article are both categorized under American magazine editors. There is no need for this category.
Otto4711
03:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Novels by Clive Cussler
- The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was keep (and repopulate).
Angus McLellan
(Talk)
15:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
-
Category:Novels by Clive Cussler (
|
talk |
history |
links |
watch |
logs)
Delete, This category is pretty much the same thing and serves the same purpose as 'Books by Clive Cussler'
Splamo
01:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Still should have been left till end of debate. ::
Kevinalewis :
(Talk Page)/
(Desk)
17:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- keep and repopulate'.
Clive Cussler also publishes non-fiction works on
marine archeology , and it is useful to separate two, not least because he such a prolific author. --
BrownHairedGirl
(talk) • (
contribs)
22:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Merge, distinction between "book" and "novel" is far from clear.
>Radiant<
11:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Comment, Novel is the content, Book is the medium. Novel is the form of writing, Book if the Physical item. The story can easily be a novel and not be contained in a Book, A Book obviously does not need to contain a Novel. ::
Kevinalewis :
(Talk Page)/
(Desk)
14:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- Keep, there are many Books categories which contain novels as a sub-category, e.g.
Category:Fantasy books by series and
Category:Dune books. As well as non-fiction, short stories and comic books are other examples of books which are not novels. In this case, Clive Cussler's novels and novel series categories need to be moved down from his Books category into his Novels category. -
Fayenatic london
(talk)
19:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page, if any, or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Wrestling Society X championships