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November 15

Category:Legend of Zelda games

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename.-- Hujdn 22:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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The Simpsons category

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The result of the debate was rename/delete per Radiant. David Kernow (talk) 07:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

All rename.-- Hujdn 22:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Batman actors

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The result of the debate was delete and protect. the wub "?!" 16:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, as recreated content, see October 17th discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Cities and towns in Venezuela

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The result of the debate was rename per nom and apparent common practice. David Kernow (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Cities and towns in Venezuela to Category:Towns in Venezuela

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Category:Nickelodeon Gas Shows

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The result of the debate was rename to Nickelodeon Games and Sports shows. David Kernow (talk) 07:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Nickelodeon GAS shows, Category:Nickelodeon Games and Sports shows, Category:Nick GAS shows. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:W Cloud cluster

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:W Cloud cluster ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • Delete - This is supposed to be a category for galaxies that lie within the "W cloud", which is the designation for an obscure group of galaxies. The structure does exist, but it is non-notable. The NASA/IPAC Extragalactic Database and the SIMBAD Astronomical Database contain no information on a "W Cloud". A search with the ADS Abstract Service only turns up 5 articles (of which 4 are refereed scientific articles) that use the term "W Cloud" in the sense that it is used in the Wikipedia article. The Wikipedia article on the object was deleted from Wikipedia (see the discussion here). Moreover, since the object is so poorly studied, identifying other galaxies that lie within the W cloud will be difficult if not impossible. Therefore, no articles on galaxies (or anything else) will ever be added to the category. So, in summary, the category should be deleted because it is about a non-notable subject and because it will never be populated. George J. Bendo 19:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Muslim Culture

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The result of the debate was merge per nom; redirect left at Muslim culture. David Kernow (talk) 07:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:Islamic culture, convention of Category:Islam. -- ProveIt (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
I agree with this proposal - please go ahead and merge into Islamic Culture. Aylahs 19:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Early 1930s

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, Theres a category for the decade, and for each of the individual years. -- ProveIt (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Characters of Saga of Seven Suns

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Saga of Seven Suns characters, convention of Category:Characters in written science fiction. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Women geologists

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete per Wikipedia policy, sole member belongs to Category:American geologists. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Delete per nom Dugwiki 17:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
This is not policy, please stop claiming that it is. -- Pinkkeith 19:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
See here. Note that gendered categories are allowed, providing that there is a distinct reason, and a consensus for them. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Delete per nom. No reason to presume this is a distinctly meaningful intersection instead of irrelevant trivia. Are there academic studies on the role of women in geology? Postdlf 20:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Well there are a few such studies. British women who contributed to research in the geological sciences in the nineteenth century, On the origin of women geologists by means of social selection: German and British comparison, THE WISSAHICKON CONTROVERSY: FLORENCE BASCOM'S EDUCATIONAL TRIUMPH, and a few others. [1]-- T. Anthony 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
I added a few, trying to limit to where it's historically appropriate. Truth be told though there aren't that many who could be categorized as this at Wiki.-- T. Anthony 23:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
That could be acceptable I guess, but I'm not sure I'm competent to do it.-- T. Anthony 07:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Wikipedian WikiGnomes/Kudos

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The result of the discussion was: SPEEDY DELETE, CSD G7—requested by creator. Postdlf 21:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Wikipedian WikiGnomes/Kudos ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Please speedy delete this category. I made it myself, and it was user error. It's a G17 case. -- Takeel 15:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Alumni of Mirzapur Cadet College

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The result of the debate was rename. David Kernow (talk) 07:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Mirzapur Cadet College alumni, convention of Category:Alumni by university in Bangladesh. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Vanessa Hudgens singles

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The result of the debate was rename all. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Vanessa Hudgens songs, convention of Category:Songs by artist, per discussion of June 9th. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Cave temples

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Hindu cave temples, convention of Category:Hindu temples, description says its for Hindu cave temples. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Churches in England by City

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The result of the debate was speedy delete as requested by author. Tim! 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Category:Churches in England by City ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) reply
Newly created category with typo in name ('City' should be 'city'). Cat is empty. New cat with correct name has been created and is now in use. (Next time I'll request a rename instead!) EdJogg 13:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Prominent Penn Political Scientists

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Prominent Penn Political Scientists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
No reason to have a category which is a branch of Category:University of Pennsylvania alumni and Category:University of Pennsylvania faculty. There could be hundreds of other categories related to alumni by industry for hundreds of other institutions, but this is unnecessary. Harr o 5 07:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Queer writers

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The result of the debate was no consensus. David Kernow (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Queer writers into Category:Gay writers and Category:Lesbian writers

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Category:School subjects

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:School subjects ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete. POV category that doesn't clearly define how common a subject needs to be in order for it to be included in the category. After all, school subjects vary depending on region, ethnic group, or culture; and what might be considered a school subject in the United States might not be so in Africa or Asia. TBCΦ talk? 03:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete. I don't agree with the nominator's reasoning, but this is an extremely vague category which doesn't serve the purpose of categories in clearly grouping articles by useful measures. Harr o 5 07:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. Actually, that is the basic gist of my reasoning; in that the category is vague to a point where deciding whether or not an article should be included in it becomes POV.-- TBCΦ talk? 07:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Female Egyptologists

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Female Egyptologists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete as an irrelevant intersection and a breach of the gender equality policy. Piccadilly 03:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Affiliates of Kidd Kraddick in the Morning

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, we don't want to create Category:Radio stations by radio program. -- ProveIt (talk) 02:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Terrorists

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The result of the debate was no consensus. the wub "?!" 12:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Category:Terrorists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Prior CfD was overturned at WP:DRV [2]. Relisting is procedural, so I'm abstaining for now. This category has an extensive history, so please check the prior discussions. ~ trialsanderrors 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

With all due respect, that's precisely the kind of reasonning that shows that some supporters of this category are ignoring NPOV issues. Pascal.Tesson 04:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per prior discussions, CfD listings, DRV, Guidelines & Tutorials, etc -- Francis Schonken 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Delete - As I was the one who listed the last AFD I stick by my comments there. The category uses the term terrorist regardless of the WP:WTA guideline. People have suggested that it is not the category that is the problem but the addition of articles to the category that is the problem. Ok, this may be the case but if I remove all the items that contravene the guideline (remember, WTA is an extension of WP:NPOV, especially in this case) then the category will be empty (well, maybe there will be one person remaining if they self-claim to be a terrorist). So simply put, it is a bad category as it encourages articles to breach WP:WTA. As TBC says, it is as bad as having a category called Freedom Fighters or Nice People.- Localzuk (talk) 10:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Just to pick up on that last point, we would consider Category:Freedom Fighters as unacceptable even if it gave a very precise NPOV definition. How about "For the purposes of this category, a Freedom Fighter is a non-state actor which is involved in paramilitary or guerilla operations designed to topple a government that they perceive as unlawful, to fight a foreign military presence or to obtain additional rights for their ethnic or religious group". Ok so that's not perfect but after some debate we could come up with a meaningful NPOV definition. But that wouldn't make the category more acceptable or more NPOV. We would reject it without a doubt and we would be right. Pascal.Tesson 17:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I can see that efforts have been made on the page Category:Terrorists to disarm those who believe the word 'terrorist' to be POV. It even says 'Disclaimer: This category may inappropriately label persons.' Can we allow a category which admits this? Putting Category:terrorists at the bottom of someone's page could easily be construed as POV. ( WP:WTA guideline has several sentences specifically about 'terrorist' and mentions 'militant' as an alternative. Category:Militants sounds better to me.) -- roundhouse 13:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep While WP:WTA is a new guideline since prior discussion, what it actually says about this word is "There is significant debate whether the term "terrorist" is a neutral description, or an opinion. Arguments for both views are summarized below." There is no prescription here against using the word, so references to it in this context are not to a guideline that tells us what to do. The category comes with clear, definitive criteria for inclusion. If someone is using POV to insert something to the category, that should be corrected with reference to the category's stated criteria. The word is in use, has an accepted meaning, and there is no reason for Wikipedia to avoid categorizing people and organizations as terrorists when they meet/met the stated criteria. GRBerry 15:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Actually, that guideline also gives as an example of non-encyclopedic use: "X is a terrorist group". That is precisely what this category is doing. Pascal.Tesson 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, per Picadilly. There are two possible POV arguments that can be made: 1) it's POV as to who is a terrorist. This is refuted by the category's clearly stated criteria, which defines inclusion based on the non-state identity of the individual, the methods of targeting civilians with violence, and the goal of affecting a government's policy (rather than the simple goal of killing those particular civilians). That the word is commonly misused more expansively to mean any act that causes terror does not mean that's how we use it, or that our use of it is going to be misunderstood to mean the more expansive usage. 2) the very term "terrorist" is POV because it's disparaging. Well, yeah, it's seen as disparaging because intentionally killing civilians is generally seen as a bad thing. A "freedom fighter" that uses those tactics rather than just attacking the occupying troops, for example, is a terrorist regardless of who agrees with his end goal of ending the occupation. " Murderer" is also a disparaging term, because people don't like the act of murder; it's seen as a bad thing to be a murderer, yet nevertheless, some people are. Yet it would be idiotic to equivocate all of those who have killed another human being, regardless of the circumstances, just to adopt a "non-judgmental" term. Just like "murderer" is the only term that fits "those who kill without justification," "terrorist" is the only term that fits "non-state actors who target civilians with violence to affect a government's policy." Postdlf 15:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - to those who are saying that WP:WTA doesn't say avoid 'terrorist' - it does in the title of the page that it is on. If it was a guidance on words that there is a debate on then the page would be called 'contentious words' or similar.- Localzuk (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep on procedural ground From what I can tell this category has as a procedural matter been discussed previously and survived the deletion process. Therefore it should not be deleted unless something major has changed. It is vital that there be some measure of closure on cfd discussions to avoid the continual renomination of controversial categories. Renominating simply because the nominator didn't agree with the previous outcome can't be a valid reason. So to maintain the consistency and closure of the cfd process, it is important to keep this category in place unless it can be shown that something significant has changed. Dugwiki 17:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
You couldn't get a much more clear cut case of an incorrect closure decision, which is why it was overturned. Osomec 12:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, the debate on deletion review does not actually conclude that it was such a clear-cut case. If deletion debates are not votes, then there are instances where the closing admin will make a judgment call and judge whether arguments from one side are stronger and more rooted in existing policies and guidelines. Pascal.Tesson 17:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep: This is a perfectly valid category. It should be used for all individuals who are 'verifiably' members of terrorist organisations or organisations that find themselves categorised here. Sarvagnya 18:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep: Essential category for Wikipedia  ♪♫ĽąĦĩŘǔ_Қ♫♪  (Ŧ) 18:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or Rename -- One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Osama Bin Laden is not considered a terrorist in many countries. Balloonman 18:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete (warning: long justification but please do read on) I would like to appeal to those who are voting "keep since we have already decided to keep". The main reason why this is being brought up again is that many editors feel that the majority got it wrong in the first place and I would like to calmly restate my opinion in the hope of convincing some that there's got to be some better solution than this categorization. The main argument for keeping the category is that it is populated according to a very specific definition which avoids any POV issue. That's a good argument but in fact experience has shown that the category is not being populated accordingly. On one hand you have people like Kamran Atif categorized as a terrorist (which in many ways makes sense but does not fit the strict definition since he is accused of involvement in a plot to assassinate Pervez Musharaff). Members of the FLQ are also in this category (which makes some sense but their action was for the most part not targeted at civilians). On the other hand the Contras and its members are not (which again makes some sense but the definition says they probably should be). Even that objective definition is problematic: I find it plain strange that someone running a car of explosives into a group of army recruits is somehow characterized differently than someone who runs a car into a Shi'ah market.
But the real problem here concerns the very nature of the term "terrorist" and its use today. There is no denying that the term is being thrown around for political purposes and that it has become emotionally laden. On the surface, that state of affairs does not prevent us from keeping the category if we populate with respect to a NPOV, objective definition but in reality this is not helpful. First, every reader has, depending on their cultural experience, a very specific definition of what a terrorist is (and I'm talking here about reasonnable people, not those that want to categorize George W. Bush as a terrorist or Bin Laden as a freedom fighter): that definition is most likely quite different from the one used here. This is inherently problematic because, like it or not, anyone who reads "Joe X is a terrorist" receives an information that is specific to the definition they have in mind, regardless of the definition intended in the sentence. Neutrality should not be judged by our intentions but by the perceptions induced in our readers. While here we have a clear intent of keeping NPOV, the end result is that readers do not receive the information as intended but rather through the prism of their own beliefs and this inadvertently imposes an interpretation of the facts. Countless news organization across the world have acknowledged this problem and chose to be very careful in their use of this politically charged term, why shouldn't we? In any case categorizing various groups and individuals as terrorists does not help in understanding complex situations since it is utterly void of nuance.
I am saddened to see that the Wikipedia community, which is usually so careful about maintaining NPOV, can so easily refuse to accept that the term "terrorist" is inherently political. It would be so much simpler to stick to categories for memberships in various organizations, members of the FLQ, members of Al-Qaeda, members of Shi'ah armed militias in Irak, members of the Armed Proletarians for Communism, members of the Baader-Meinhof gang, etc. Clearer, objective, admitting nuance, not imposing an interpretation on readers. Pascal.Tesson 19:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Very Strong Delete Wikipedia:Words to avoid specifically states: "...the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist..." Thus:
"The American singer and activist Harry Belafonte called President Bush ' the greatest terrorist in the world ' on Sunday and said millions of Americans support the socialist revolution of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez."— Fox News, Sunday, January 8, 2006, accessed November 15, 2006. See Fox News Channel.
There is no universally held definition of what a terrorist is. As is illustrated by Belafonte, calling someone a terrorist is a point of view, not a fact.
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is policy and requires that "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias."
Many of the articles on so-called "terrorists" which are in this category cite no references or sources, let alone ones that identify the subject of the article as a terrorist, and shouldn't be using the word in the article. Additionally, how is one supposed to represent the view that someone is a "terrorist" proportionately? For each person that is called a terrorist by someone, is there a reference to a person who describes them as something that's an opposite of a terrorist?— Chidom  talk  20:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep With regard to the point made by trialsanderrors having a separate category for each group does not sound like an improvement as there are so many groups, most of them rather obscure. Also it just transfers the debate to what to call the categories that hold those categories, without resolving it. Olborne 21:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Looking at the current entries in the category, I don't think it's more than ten groups. The advantages of categorizing by afffiliation are that 1. It's tangible. Most terrorists identify with their group, so there is no POV issue. Baader might have considered himself a freedom fighter while the German government considered him a terrorist, but they both agreed on his membership in RAF. 2. It's more fine-grained than "terrorist". 3. It doesn't preclude the use of other categories, say "CIA Ten Most Wanted" or "Guantanamo detainee" to describe individuals based on tangible facts rather than interpretation. In any case, I'm still neutral on this, but I recommend considering these additional categories anyway, and then later decide whether they might supercede the blanket category terrorists. ~ trialsanderrors 22:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: Pascal.Tesson makes an interesting but imo, a flawed case for deleting this cat. His concern seems to be more about misuse of this category than its propriety itself. He may be right in saying that this cat may be misused or populated wrongly. But that surely shouldnt be held against the category itself. If need be, more stringent guidelines can be put in writing as to who can or cannot be categorised under this category. IMO, this shouldnt be too difficult to do since we already have a category for terrorist organisations. Any avowed or self confessed member of any of these organisations can in all fairness be categorised under Cat:terrorist. Thus Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE and Osama bin laden of Al qaeda surely will make the grade, but not Veerappan who certainly did create terror, did kill innocent people, in my book is a 'terrorist' but officially he is only a 'bandit' or 'dacoit'/outlaw etc.,. No elected govt., ever called him a terrorist. Again, we may have many borderline cases where people may be suspected of being members of one of these terror groups and in such cases this category shouldnt be used. Sarvagnya 04:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment thanks for the kind words. However, I'd like to point out that my main concern is not about the category being populated incorrectly but about its POV nature even when it is populated correctly. The problem I see is that everyone has a "book": you do, I do, and these perceptions influence how we receive the category. Pascal.Tesson 13:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment That's a fair point. Although I think in that particular instance we could figure something out. But what exactly is gained by having a category that has Theodore Kaczynski, John Allen Muhammad and David Gilbert? Wouldn't it be oh so much more enlightning to group only McVeigh with Terry Nichols, one category for Symbionese Liberation Army, one for the Weatherman (organization) and one for those anti-abortion bozos? Grouping all of them under American terrorists creates artificial parallels between them that don't reflect the true diversity of their motivations, actions or history. Pascal.Tesson 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment with all due respect, I don't understand what you're saying. What is the cost incurred by deleting the category terrorists and replacing it with categories that are organisation and movement/ideology specific ones? The category system would still be covering all subjects. By your argument, we should also support the category Freedom Fighters because it's a subject, although it's controversial. But we would not do that, naturally, because there would be a clear-cut POV concern. Now I'm not saying that the POV concern is as strong for terrorists but it is still present. Pascal.Tesson 22:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Interestingly, the BBC (which is by most measures a pretty neutral entity) does not and recognizes the inherent problems associated with the use of the term, and states that "the word 'terrorist' itself can be a barrier rather than an aid to understanding". [3] Reuters, the Associated Press, the CBC and many others have also chosen to be very careful [4] [5]. Pascal.Tesson 22:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC) reply
For instance Ariel Sharon has just been put in Category:Terrorists (see diff). His article is very long but I can't see on what grounds he fits the definition (he was in Haganah, which is in category National Liberation movement) and neither can I put in a 'justify' tag (which I could if someone puts 'AS is/was a terrorist' in the text). AS is alive, this is (arguably) a potentially libellous claim etc. slipped unobtrusively in amongst the footnotes. (This is partly a technical matter as watching Category:Terrorists doesn't reveal new additions (unlike say a conventional page with a list of terrorists) and it doesn't have a useful history page either.) -- roundhouse 16:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong delete Inherently POV as most other people have said. A very bad idea for a category. And see Wikipedia:Awords to avoid, which this category blatantly runs roughshod over. Either the claim is attributed to a source or it shouldn't be made. A category cannot have an attributed claim by its very nature.-- Zleitzen 11:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or rename or... engage in a wider discussion. That is, we can't take a very American-centric view and list people Americans call terrorists but ignore opinions and rulings elsewhere in the world. Do the cases against Sharon and Rumsfeld warrant putting them in the category of war criminals? I don't know, however we need a clear methodology which is more than "the American government considers them a terrorist while it doesn't consider the others war criminals". I don't think anyone should have problems with "people designated terrorists by the U.S." or something similar, however, we need some realization that there is a political dimension to this which is not cut and dry. Keeping the category without having some explanation of definition or uniformity is no good. gren グレン 23:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment: Grenavitar's last sentence above, illustrates for me the pronlems inherent in this category. Gren is right that the category would need some coherence of definition, but the insurmountable problem in doing that is that there is no accepted definition of terrorism. Some of the widely-held definitions are poles apart, and almost contradictory; as a result, using any of the available definitions is in itself a POV position. That leaves us with a choice between making an undefined category without any objective test for its use, or a defined category with is inherently POV. Neither seems acceptable to me, and deletion seems the only solution. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 09:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment as a last ditch effort to argue for deletion before the debate is closed, let me restate the case for deletion and address the concerns of those supporting a keep. Some of the keep supporters in this debate have brought different and often valid points. As best as I can summarize them they are:
  1. The category is useful because there is no alternative, meaningful categorization.
  2. The category is not POV because it gives a precise objective definition.
  3. It's already been agreed that the category deserves to be kept.

(In passing, I can't resist pointing out that a number of keep votes have also failed to bring any sort of justification to the table, my favorites being the early "keep per nom" opinion or the facetious claim that deletion would clog the terrorism category.) But getting back to the other arguments, I think a number of people have proposed an alternative by categorizing according to organizations, which has the advantage of getting more information across and in a completely neutral way. It should be pointed out that the always excellent German wiki does not have a "terrorists" category and classifies the same people under their respective organizations. The argument about an objective definition being used is fairly solid but as I argued before (using a perhaps less convincing example) it's not solid enough. Would we accept to keep category:Idiots even if we said "This is a category for people who have scored under 60 in an IQ test"? Despite this being an objective definition, the fact remains that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes an idiot and this hampers the usefulness of the category no matter how much we try to make it NPOV. Finally, there has never been any consensus on keeping the category and this deserves to be repeated. Time and again, the result has essentially been "no consensus" and as long as we keep this category, the debate will pop up every now and then because editors have strong concerns about it. The new guideline WP:WTA, while (correctly) not proscribing the use of the term, also urges care. Those of us arguing for deletion don't want to give people currently categorized as terrorists a free pass or categorize them as freedom fighters. We just think that there's a better alternative to it which won't get periodically bogged down by this debate. I'm not sure anyone's still keeping track of this debate but maybe, just maybe, I can still change someone's mind... Pascal.Tesson 00:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply

I keep seeing "Keep", and it's distressing...

Nevertheless, Delete, if only to illustrate a point. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Strong Keep category lists simple, neutral and verifiable conditions for inclusion. The use of the word by celebrities as noted above in the Belafonte quote are irrelevant, because use for shock value is not the same as meeting the category conditions. If someone can clearly enumerate how Bush himself is a terrorist, then he can be listed. He may meet the definitions for State Terror sponsor, but that one's a whole other ball of wax, since national perspectives come into play. Such clear catergory delineation makes citation for inclusion easily possible for most cases. ThuranX 20:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Fictional cynics

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Fictional cynics ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Subjective character trait. A well crafted character will show a range of reactions to life, and this could logically include any fictional character who's ever been cynical of any situation. CovenantD 01:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete. Overly vague, open to POV. Harr o 5 07:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, not a defining characteristic. ( Radiant) 12:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - This category clearly suffers from a POV problem. (I cynically expect articles to be inappropriately listed in such a category.) George J. Bendo 14:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Inherently subjective. Postdlf 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom Balloonman 18:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - too nebulous/ambiguous. - jc37 10:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • I think the biggest problem that categories like this suffer from (which the "fictional promiscuous characters" category made me think about) is that it intrinsically requires a baseline against which the trait can be compared as significant, yet doesn't provide one. Even assuming you can identify within a given fictional work which character is "the cynical one" by contrast with the other characters, from one work to another all the characters may seem cynical because of the differing writers, time period, conventions of the medium, etc. So the category could either include those who can be judged "cynical" across a comparison of works (compare all of the characters in Seinfeld to all of the characters in Little House on the Prairie), or only those who can be judged "cynical" in the context of a particular work (compare the Olsens to the Ingalls within Little House). That kind of context requires explanation. Postdlf 07:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. ThuranX 21:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Criterion Collection infoboxes

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The result of the debate was this is the wrong place try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films. Whisp e ring 18:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC) I know that this is not the correct spot for this notice but in my search through the various help pages I could not find anything that seemed appropriate. One of the pages on my watchlist is The Seven Samurai, I have noticed that in the last year, on two seperate occasions (Jan 29th and Sept 28th) the category "Criterion Collection films" were deleted. On Oct 22nd User: Cop 633 went around the category designation by creating an info box listing the CC's films in the order of their original release and began applying it to the films in question. On Nov 8th an anonymous user began removing them and today User: Doctor Sunshine began putting thm back in. I am simply trying to get an administrator to take a look at this situation so that we can avoid an edit war. I understood the reasoning about taking the categories out but, I have to say that they were less obtrusive than these boxes and they gave one a chance of seeing all of their releases on one page. Again my apologies for not going through the proper channels to bring this to your attention and please feel free to let me know where I should have posted this. Thanks. MarnetteD | Talk 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Former New Orleans Saints players

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The result of the debate was merge per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:New Orleans Saints players per Wikipedia policy. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Female drummers

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The result of the debate was merge per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:Drummers per Wikipedia conventions. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:People from Covington, Virginia

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The result of the debate was upmerge with People from Virginia, David Kernow (talk) 07:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:People from Covington, Virginia ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Very small town that doesn't merit its own category (believe me, I've been there). Currently consists of one person, who seems to be the person who created the category in the first place. -- BDD 09:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_15&oldid=1136104101"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< November 14 November 16 >

November 15

Category:Legend of Zelda games

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename.-- Hujdn 22:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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The Simpsons category

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The result of the debate was rename/delete per Radiant. David Kernow (talk) 07:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

All rename.-- Hujdn 22:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Batman actors

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The result of the debate was delete and protect. the wub "?!" 16:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, as recreated content, see October 17th discussion. -- ProveIt (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Cities and towns in Venezuela

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The result of the debate was rename per nom and apparent common practice. David Kernow (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Cities and towns in Venezuela to Category:Towns in Venezuela

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Category:Nickelodeon Gas Shows

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The result of the debate was rename to Nickelodeon Games and Sports shows. David Kernow (talk) 07:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Nickelodeon GAS shows, Category:Nickelodeon Games and Sports shows, Category:Nick GAS shows. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:W Cloud cluster

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:W Cloud cluster ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

  • Delete - This is supposed to be a category for galaxies that lie within the "W cloud", which is the designation for an obscure group of galaxies. The structure does exist, but it is non-notable. The NASA/IPAC Extragalactic Database and the SIMBAD Astronomical Database contain no information on a "W Cloud". A search with the ADS Abstract Service only turns up 5 articles (of which 4 are refereed scientific articles) that use the term "W Cloud" in the sense that it is used in the Wikipedia article. The Wikipedia article on the object was deleted from Wikipedia (see the discussion here). Moreover, since the object is so poorly studied, identifying other galaxies that lie within the W cloud will be difficult if not impossible. Therefore, no articles on galaxies (or anything else) will ever be added to the category. So, in summary, the category should be deleted because it is about a non-notable subject and because it will never be populated. George J. Bendo 19:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Muslim Culture

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The result of the debate was merge per nom; redirect left at Muslim culture. David Kernow (talk) 07:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:Islamic culture, convention of Category:Islam. -- ProveIt (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
I agree with this proposal - please go ahead and merge into Islamic Culture. Aylahs 19:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Early 1930s

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, Theres a category for the decade, and for each of the individual years. -- ProveIt (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Characters of Saga of Seven Suns

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Saga of Seven Suns characters, convention of Category:Characters in written science fiction. -- ProveIt (talk) 16:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Women geologists

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete per Wikipedia policy, sole member belongs to Category:American geologists. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Delete per nom Dugwiki 17:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
This is not policy, please stop claiming that it is. -- Pinkkeith 19:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
See here. Note that gendered categories are allowed, providing that there is a distinct reason, and a consensus for them. -- ProveIt (talk) 21:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Delete per nom. No reason to presume this is a distinctly meaningful intersection instead of irrelevant trivia. Are there academic studies on the role of women in geology? Postdlf 20:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Well there are a few such studies. British women who contributed to research in the geological sciences in the nineteenth century, On the origin of women geologists by means of social selection: German and British comparison, THE WISSAHICKON CONTROVERSY: FLORENCE BASCOM'S EDUCATIONAL TRIUMPH, and a few others. [1]-- T. Anthony 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
I added a few, trying to limit to where it's historically appropriate. Truth be told though there aren't that many who could be categorized as this at Wiki.-- T. Anthony 23:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
That could be acceptable I guess, but I'm not sure I'm competent to do it.-- T. Anthony 07:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Wikipedian WikiGnomes/Kudos

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The result of the discussion was: SPEEDY DELETE, CSD G7—requested by creator. Postdlf 21:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Wikipedian WikiGnomes/Kudos ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Please speedy delete this category. I made it myself, and it was user error. It's a G17 case. -- Takeel 15:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Alumni of Mirzapur Cadet College

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The result of the debate was rename. David Kernow (talk) 07:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Mirzapur Cadet College alumni, convention of Category:Alumni by university in Bangladesh. -- ProveIt (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Vanessa Hudgens singles

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The result of the debate was rename all. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Vanessa Hudgens songs, convention of Category:Songs by artist, per discussion of June 9th. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Cave temples

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The result of the debate was rename per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename to Category:Hindu cave temples, convention of Category:Hindu temples, description says its for Hindu cave temples. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Churches in England by City

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The result of the debate was speedy delete as requested by author. Tim! 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Category:Churches in England by City ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs) reply
Newly created category with typo in name ('City' should be 'city'). Cat is empty. New cat with correct name has been created and is now in use. (Next time I'll request a rename instead!) EdJogg 13:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Prominent Penn Political Scientists

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Prominent Penn Political Scientists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
No reason to have a category which is a branch of Category:University of Pennsylvania alumni and Category:University of Pennsylvania faculty. There could be hundreds of other categories related to alumni by industry for hundreds of other institutions, but this is unnecessary. Harr o 5 07:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Queer writers

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The result of the debate was no consensus. David Kernow (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Queer writers into Category:Gay writers and Category:Lesbian writers

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Category:School subjects

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:School subjects ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete. POV category that doesn't clearly define how common a subject needs to be in order for it to be included in the category. After all, school subjects vary depending on region, ethnic group, or culture; and what might be considered a school subject in the United States might not be so in Africa or Asia. TBCΦ talk? 03:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete. I don't agree with the nominator's reasoning, but this is an extremely vague category which doesn't serve the purpose of categories in clearly grouping articles by useful measures. Harr o 5 07:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. Actually, that is the basic gist of my reasoning; in that the category is vague to a point where deciding whether or not an article should be included in it becomes POV.-- TBCΦ talk? 07:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Female Egyptologists

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Female Egyptologists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete as an irrelevant intersection and a breach of the gender equality policy. Piccadilly 03:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Affiliates of Kidd Kraddick in the Morning

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The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete, we don't want to create Category:Radio stations by radio program. -- ProveIt (talk) 02:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Terrorists

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The result of the debate was no consensus. the wub "?!" 12:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Category:Terrorists ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Prior CfD was overturned at WP:DRV [2]. Relisting is procedural, so I'm abstaining for now. This category has an extensive history, so please check the prior discussions. ~ trialsanderrors 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

With all due respect, that's precisely the kind of reasonning that shows that some supporters of this category are ignoring NPOV issues. Pascal.Tesson 04:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep per prior discussions, CfD listings, DRV, Guidelines & Tutorials, etc -- Francis Schonken 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong Delete - As I was the one who listed the last AFD I stick by my comments there. The category uses the term terrorist regardless of the WP:WTA guideline. People have suggested that it is not the category that is the problem but the addition of articles to the category that is the problem. Ok, this may be the case but if I remove all the items that contravene the guideline (remember, WTA is an extension of WP:NPOV, especially in this case) then the category will be empty (well, maybe there will be one person remaining if they self-claim to be a terrorist). So simply put, it is a bad category as it encourages articles to breach WP:WTA. As TBC says, it is as bad as having a category called Freedom Fighters or Nice People.- Localzuk (talk) 10:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Just to pick up on that last point, we would consider Category:Freedom Fighters as unacceptable even if it gave a very precise NPOV definition. How about "For the purposes of this category, a Freedom Fighter is a non-state actor which is involved in paramilitary or guerilla operations designed to topple a government that they perceive as unlawful, to fight a foreign military presence or to obtain additional rights for their ethnic or religious group". Ok so that's not perfect but after some debate we could come up with a meaningful NPOV definition. But that wouldn't make the category more acceptable or more NPOV. We would reject it without a doubt and we would be right. Pascal.Tesson 17:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I can see that efforts have been made on the page Category:Terrorists to disarm those who believe the word 'terrorist' to be POV. It even says 'Disclaimer: This category may inappropriately label persons.' Can we allow a category which admits this? Putting Category:terrorists at the bottom of someone's page could easily be construed as POV. ( WP:WTA guideline has several sentences specifically about 'terrorist' and mentions 'militant' as an alternative. Category:Militants sounds better to me.) -- roundhouse 13:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep While WP:WTA is a new guideline since prior discussion, what it actually says about this word is "There is significant debate whether the term "terrorist" is a neutral description, or an opinion. Arguments for both views are summarized below." There is no prescription here against using the word, so references to it in this context are not to a guideline that tells us what to do. The category comes with clear, definitive criteria for inclusion. If someone is using POV to insert something to the category, that should be corrected with reference to the category's stated criteria. The word is in use, has an accepted meaning, and there is no reason for Wikipedia to avoid categorizing people and organizations as terrorists when they meet/met the stated criteria. GRBerry 15:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Actually, that guideline also gives as an example of non-encyclopedic use: "X is a terrorist group". That is precisely what this category is doing. Pascal.Tesson 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep, per Picadilly. There are two possible POV arguments that can be made: 1) it's POV as to who is a terrorist. This is refuted by the category's clearly stated criteria, which defines inclusion based on the non-state identity of the individual, the methods of targeting civilians with violence, and the goal of affecting a government's policy (rather than the simple goal of killing those particular civilians). That the word is commonly misused more expansively to mean any act that causes terror does not mean that's how we use it, or that our use of it is going to be misunderstood to mean the more expansive usage. 2) the very term "terrorist" is POV because it's disparaging. Well, yeah, it's seen as disparaging because intentionally killing civilians is generally seen as a bad thing. A "freedom fighter" that uses those tactics rather than just attacking the occupying troops, for example, is a terrorist regardless of who agrees with his end goal of ending the occupation. " Murderer" is also a disparaging term, because people don't like the act of murder; it's seen as a bad thing to be a murderer, yet nevertheless, some people are. Yet it would be idiotic to equivocate all of those who have killed another human being, regardless of the circumstances, just to adopt a "non-judgmental" term. Just like "murderer" is the only term that fits "those who kill without justification," "terrorist" is the only term that fits "non-state actors who target civilians with violence to affect a government's policy." Postdlf 15:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - to those who are saying that WP:WTA doesn't say avoid 'terrorist' - it does in the title of the page that it is on. If it was a guidance on words that there is a debate on then the page would be called 'contentious words' or similar.- Localzuk (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep on procedural ground From what I can tell this category has as a procedural matter been discussed previously and survived the deletion process. Therefore it should not be deleted unless something major has changed. It is vital that there be some measure of closure on cfd discussions to avoid the continual renomination of controversial categories. Renominating simply because the nominator didn't agree with the previous outcome can't be a valid reason. So to maintain the consistency and closure of the cfd process, it is important to keep this category in place unless it can be shown that something significant has changed. Dugwiki 17:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
You couldn't get a much more clear cut case of an incorrect closure decision, which is why it was overturned. Osomec 12:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, the debate on deletion review does not actually conclude that it was such a clear-cut case. If deletion debates are not votes, then there are instances where the closing admin will make a judgment call and judge whether arguments from one side are stronger and more rooted in existing policies and guidelines. Pascal.Tesson 17:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep: This is a perfectly valid category. It should be used for all individuals who are 'verifiably' members of terrorist organisations or organisations that find themselves categorised here. Sarvagnya 18:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep: Essential category for Wikipedia  ♪♫ĽąĦĩŘǔ_Қ♫♪  (Ŧ) 18:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or Rename -- One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Osama Bin Laden is not considered a terrorist in many countries. Balloonman 18:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete (warning: long justification but please do read on) I would like to appeal to those who are voting "keep since we have already decided to keep". The main reason why this is being brought up again is that many editors feel that the majority got it wrong in the first place and I would like to calmly restate my opinion in the hope of convincing some that there's got to be some better solution than this categorization. The main argument for keeping the category is that it is populated according to a very specific definition which avoids any POV issue. That's a good argument but in fact experience has shown that the category is not being populated accordingly. On one hand you have people like Kamran Atif categorized as a terrorist (which in many ways makes sense but does not fit the strict definition since he is accused of involvement in a plot to assassinate Pervez Musharaff). Members of the FLQ are also in this category (which makes some sense but their action was for the most part not targeted at civilians). On the other hand the Contras and its members are not (which again makes some sense but the definition says they probably should be). Even that objective definition is problematic: I find it plain strange that someone running a car of explosives into a group of army recruits is somehow characterized differently than someone who runs a car into a Shi'ah market.
But the real problem here concerns the very nature of the term "terrorist" and its use today. There is no denying that the term is being thrown around for political purposes and that it has become emotionally laden. On the surface, that state of affairs does not prevent us from keeping the category if we populate with respect to a NPOV, objective definition but in reality this is not helpful. First, every reader has, depending on their cultural experience, a very specific definition of what a terrorist is (and I'm talking here about reasonnable people, not those that want to categorize George W. Bush as a terrorist or Bin Laden as a freedom fighter): that definition is most likely quite different from the one used here. This is inherently problematic because, like it or not, anyone who reads "Joe X is a terrorist" receives an information that is specific to the definition they have in mind, regardless of the definition intended in the sentence. Neutrality should not be judged by our intentions but by the perceptions induced in our readers. While here we have a clear intent of keeping NPOV, the end result is that readers do not receive the information as intended but rather through the prism of their own beliefs and this inadvertently imposes an interpretation of the facts. Countless news organization across the world have acknowledged this problem and chose to be very careful in their use of this politically charged term, why shouldn't we? In any case categorizing various groups and individuals as terrorists does not help in understanding complex situations since it is utterly void of nuance.
I am saddened to see that the Wikipedia community, which is usually so careful about maintaining NPOV, can so easily refuse to accept that the term "terrorist" is inherently political. It would be so much simpler to stick to categories for memberships in various organizations, members of the FLQ, members of Al-Qaeda, members of Shi'ah armed militias in Irak, members of the Armed Proletarians for Communism, members of the Baader-Meinhof gang, etc. Clearer, objective, admitting nuance, not imposing an interpretation on readers. Pascal.Tesson 19:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Very Strong Delete Wikipedia:Words to avoid specifically states: "...the article should make it clear who is calling them a terrorist..." Thus:
"The American singer and activist Harry Belafonte called President Bush ' the greatest terrorist in the world ' on Sunday and said millions of Americans support the socialist revolution of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez."— Fox News, Sunday, January 8, 2006, accessed November 15, 2006. See Fox News Channel.
There is no universally held definition of what a terrorist is. As is illustrated by Belafonte, calling someone a terrorist is a point of view, not a fact.
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is policy and requires that "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias."
Many of the articles on so-called "terrorists" which are in this category cite no references or sources, let alone ones that identify the subject of the article as a terrorist, and shouldn't be using the word in the article. Additionally, how is one supposed to represent the view that someone is a "terrorist" proportionately? For each person that is called a terrorist by someone, is there a reference to a person who describes them as something that's an opposite of a terrorist?— Chidom  talk  20:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Keep With regard to the point made by trialsanderrors having a separate category for each group does not sound like an improvement as there are so many groups, most of them rather obscure. Also it just transfers the debate to what to call the categories that hold those categories, without resolving it. Olborne 21:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Looking at the current entries in the category, I don't think it's more than ten groups. The advantages of categorizing by afffiliation are that 1. It's tangible. Most terrorists identify with their group, so there is no POV issue. Baader might have considered himself a freedom fighter while the German government considered him a terrorist, but they both agreed on his membership in RAF. 2. It's more fine-grained than "terrorist". 3. It doesn't preclude the use of other categories, say "CIA Ten Most Wanted" or "Guantanamo detainee" to describe individuals based on tangible facts rather than interpretation. In any case, I'm still neutral on this, but I recommend considering these additional categories anyway, and then later decide whether they might supercede the blanket category terrorists. ~ trialsanderrors 22:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: Pascal.Tesson makes an interesting but imo, a flawed case for deleting this cat. His concern seems to be more about misuse of this category than its propriety itself. He may be right in saying that this cat may be misused or populated wrongly. But that surely shouldnt be held against the category itself. If need be, more stringent guidelines can be put in writing as to who can or cannot be categorised under this category. IMO, this shouldnt be too difficult to do since we already have a category for terrorist organisations. Any avowed or self confessed member of any of these organisations can in all fairness be categorised under Cat:terrorist. Thus Velupillai Prabhakaran of LTTE and Osama bin laden of Al qaeda surely will make the grade, but not Veerappan who certainly did create terror, did kill innocent people, in my book is a 'terrorist' but officially he is only a 'bandit' or 'dacoit'/outlaw etc.,. No elected govt., ever called him a terrorist. Again, we may have many borderline cases where people may be suspected of being members of one of these terror groups and in such cases this category shouldnt be used. Sarvagnya 04:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment thanks for the kind words. However, I'd like to point out that my main concern is not about the category being populated incorrectly but about its POV nature even when it is populated correctly. The problem I see is that everyone has a "book": you do, I do, and these perceptions influence how we receive the category. Pascal.Tesson 13:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment That's a fair point. Although I think in that particular instance we could figure something out. But what exactly is gained by having a category that has Theodore Kaczynski, John Allen Muhammad and David Gilbert? Wouldn't it be oh so much more enlightning to group only McVeigh with Terry Nichols, one category for Symbionese Liberation Army, one for the Weatherman (organization) and one for those anti-abortion bozos? Grouping all of them under American terrorists creates artificial parallels between them that don't reflect the true diversity of their motivations, actions or history. Pascal.Tesson 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment with all due respect, I don't understand what you're saying. What is the cost incurred by deleting the category terrorists and replacing it with categories that are organisation and movement/ideology specific ones? The category system would still be covering all subjects. By your argument, we should also support the category Freedom Fighters because it's a subject, although it's controversial. But we would not do that, naturally, because there would be a clear-cut POV concern. Now I'm not saying that the POV concern is as strong for terrorists but it is still present. Pascal.Tesson 22:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Interestingly, the BBC (which is by most measures a pretty neutral entity) does not and recognizes the inherent problems associated with the use of the term, and states that "the word 'terrorist' itself can be a barrier rather than an aid to understanding". [3] Reuters, the Associated Press, the CBC and many others have also chosen to be very careful [4] [5]. Pascal.Tesson 22:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC) reply
For instance Ariel Sharon has just been put in Category:Terrorists (see diff). His article is very long but I can't see on what grounds he fits the definition (he was in Haganah, which is in category National Liberation movement) and neither can I put in a 'justify' tag (which I could if someone puts 'AS is/was a terrorist' in the text). AS is alive, this is (arguably) a potentially libellous claim etc. slipped unobtrusively in amongst the footnotes. (This is partly a technical matter as watching Category:Terrorists doesn't reveal new additions (unlike say a conventional page with a list of terrorists) and it doesn't have a useful history page either.) -- roundhouse 16:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong delete Inherently POV as most other people have said. A very bad idea for a category. And see Wikipedia:Awords to avoid, which this category blatantly runs roughshod over. Either the claim is attributed to a source or it shouldn't be made. A category cannot have an attributed claim by its very nature.-- Zleitzen 11:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete or rename or... engage in a wider discussion. That is, we can't take a very American-centric view and list people Americans call terrorists but ignore opinions and rulings elsewhere in the world. Do the cases against Sharon and Rumsfeld warrant putting them in the category of war criminals? I don't know, however we need a clear methodology which is more than "the American government considers them a terrorist while it doesn't consider the others war criminals". I don't think anyone should have problems with "people designated terrorists by the U.S." or something similar, however, we need some realization that there is a political dimension to this which is not cut and dry. Keeping the category without having some explanation of definition or uniformity is no good. gren グレン 23:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply
Comment: Grenavitar's last sentence above, illustrates for me the pronlems inherent in this category. Gren is right that the category would need some coherence of definition, but the insurmountable problem in doing that is that there is no accepted definition of terrorism. Some of the widely-held definitions are poles apart, and almost contradictory; as a result, using any of the available definitions is in itself a POV position. That leaves us with a choice between making an undefined category without any objective test for its use, or a defined category with is inherently POV. Neither seems acceptable to me, and deletion seems the only solution. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 09:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment as a last ditch effort to argue for deletion before the debate is closed, let me restate the case for deletion and address the concerns of those supporting a keep. Some of the keep supporters in this debate have brought different and often valid points. As best as I can summarize them they are:
  1. The category is useful because there is no alternative, meaningful categorization.
  2. The category is not POV because it gives a precise objective definition.
  3. It's already been agreed that the category deserves to be kept.

(In passing, I can't resist pointing out that a number of keep votes have also failed to bring any sort of justification to the table, my favorites being the early "keep per nom" opinion or the facetious claim that deletion would clog the terrorism category.) But getting back to the other arguments, I think a number of people have proposed an alternative by categorizing according to organizations, which has the advantage of getting more information across and in a completely neutral way. It should be pointed out that the always excellent German wiki does not have a "terrorists" category and classifies the same people under their respective organizations. The argument about an objective definition being used is fairly solid but as I argued before (using a perhaps less convincing example) it's not solid enough. Would we accept to keep category:Idiots even if we said "This is a category for people who have scored under 60 in an IQ test"? Despite this being an objective definition, the fact remains that everyone has a different idea of what constitutes an idiot and this hampers the usefulness of the category no matter how much we try to make it NPOV. Finally, there has never been any consensus on keeping the category and this deserves to be repeated. Time and again, the result has essentially been "no consensus" and as long as we keep this category, the debate will pop up every now and then because editors have strong concerns about it. The new guideline WP:WTA, while (correctly) not proscribing the use of the term, also urges care. Those of us arguing for deletion don't want to give people currently categorized as terrorists a free pass or categorize them as freedom fighters. We just think that there's a better alternative to it which won't get periodically bogged down by this debate. I'm not sure anyone's still keeping track of this debate but maybe, just maybe, I can still change someone's mind... Pascal.Tesson 00:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply

I keep seeing "Keep", and it's distressing...

Nevertheless, Delete, if only to illustrate a point. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Strong Keep category lists simple, neutral and verifiable conditions for inclusion. The use of the word by celebrities as noted above in the Belafonte quote are irrelevant, because use for shock value is not the same as meeting the category conditions. If someone can clearly enumerate how Bush himself is a terrorist, then he can be listed. He may meet the definitions for State Terror sponsor, but that one's a whole other ball of wax, since national perspectives come into play. Such clear catergory delineation makes citation for inclusion easily possible for most cases. ThuranX 20:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Fictional cynics

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was delete. -- RobertG ♬ talk 12:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Fictional cynics ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Subjective character trait. A well crafted character will show a range of reactions to life, and this could logically include any fictional character who's ever been cynical of any situation. CovenantD 01:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Delete. Overly vague, open to POV. Harr o 5 07:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete, not a defining characteristic. ( Radiant) 12:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - This category clearly suffers from a POV problem. (I cynically expect articles to be inappropriately listed in such a category.) George J. Bendo 14:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. Inherently subjective. Postdlf 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom Balloonman 18:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete - too nebulous/ambiguous. - jc37 10:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • I think the biggest problem that categories like this suffer from (which the "fictional promiscuous characters" category made me think about) is that it intrinsically requires a baseline against which the trait can be compared as significant, yet doesn't provide one. Even assuming you can identify within a given fictional work which character is "the cynical one" by contrast with the other characters, from one work to another all the characters may seem cynical because of the differing writers, time period, conventions of the medium, etc. So the category could either include those who can be judged "cynical" across a comparison of works (compare all of the characters in Seinfeld to all of the characters in Little House on the Prairie), or only those who can be judged "cynical" in the context of a particular work (compare the Olsens to the Ingalls within Little House). That kind of context requires explanation. Postdlf 07:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per nom. ThuranX 21:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Criterion Collection infoboxes

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was this is the wrong place try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films. Whisp e ring 18:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC) I know that this is not the correct spot for this notice but in my search through the various help pages I could not find anything that seemed appropriate. One of the pages on my watchlist is The Seven Samurai, I have noticed that in the last year, on two seperate occasions (Jan 29th and Sept 28th) the category "Criterion Collection films" were deleted. On Oct 22nd User: Cop 633 went around the category designation by creating an info box listing the CC's films in the order of their original release and began applying it to the films in question. On Nov 8th an anonymous user began removing them and today User: Doctor Sunshine began putting thm back in. I am simply trying to get an administrator to take a look at this situation so that we can avoid an edit war. I understood the reasoning about taking the categories out but, I have to say that they were less obtrusive than these boxes and they gave one a chance of seeing all of their releases on one page. Again my apologies for not going through the proper channels to bring this to your attention and please feel free to let me know where I should have posted this. Thanks. MarnetteD | Talk 01:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Former New Orleans Saints players

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The result of the debate was merge per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:New Orleans Saints players per Wikipedia policy. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Female drummers

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The result of the debate was merge per nom. David Kernow (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into Category:Drummers per Wikipedia conventions. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:People from Covington, Virginia

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was upmerge with People from Virginia, David Kernow (talk) 07:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:People from Covington, Virginia ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Very small town that doesn't merit its own category (believe me, I've been there). Currently consists of one person, who seems to be the person who created the category in the first place. -- BDD 09:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC) reply

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