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May 13

Categories starting Wikipedia:

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The result of the debate was rename per alternates. Syrthiss 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

And also

These, and the children mentioned, are every page which start with "Category:Wikipedia:". Using a double namespace as the start is not a good idea, because it's confusing for people and for the software (allpages's namespace filter breaks on these). For the majority of them I've suggested just replacing the colon with a space; the last two I've stripped off the "Wikipedia:" bit as unnecesary. There was a previous CfD nomination ( here), but it got very little traffic. The only sensible objection brought up then was compatibility with a 'planned' new namespace. I'd rather avoid current problems than possibly make things slightly easier if a future software change happens. SeventyThree( Talk) 00:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Note: I havn't put the tag on children of Category:Wikipedia:Sock puppets or Category:Wikipedia:Sock puppets, because there are so many and it didn't really seem worth it. SeventyThree( Talk) 00:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC) - I prefer the alternate proposal now (see below). SeventyThree( Talk) 05:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename Azeri and virtual guns categories per nom. Conscious 09:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Pokémon User Made Images

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Redundant in scope with Category:Pokémon images. Empty (it had one member, which was copyvio). Not necessary as a subcat of that category. - A Man In Bl1ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC). reply

A very good category. It can be used to place any image that the user created. To join the catageory, place Category:Pokémon User Made Images on the image page. You will like the way the category looks when there is lots of members — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iloveminun ( talk • contribs)

  • Delete Copyright is not limited to "official" images of things like this, all the various characters in the Pokémon "universe" is also copyrighted, so unfortunately drawing your own picture of a Pokémon character would still infringe on the rights of the creators of the series. IANAL naturaly, but I'm pretty sure that's the reason we are not flooded by cheap copies of pokemon comics and trading cards and what not, you simply can't make these things legaly without an explicit license from the creators of the thing. -- Sherool (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Alternate reality games to Category:Alternative reality games

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The result of the debate was keep. Conscious 20:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

see below SeventyThree( Talk) 22:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Alternate reality to Category:Alternative reality

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The result of the debate was keep. Conscious 20:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

re-listing becasue they weren't tagged. I've now added the tags. Neutral SeventyThree( Talk) 22:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Proper English. — Timwi 11:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC) reply

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The result of the debate wasdelete. The categorisation structure, as stated by WP:CAT, should be mindful of NPOV; "Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." The argument for deletion is in keeping with this notion, and the arguments for keeping the category offer little to counter this view, with one user asking it be kept because it exists in another category. I feel that point applies to the article Anti-hero rather than this category. The other point, that categories are more organised and easier to maintain is not essentially true, Lists can be said to be easier to maintain, exisiting as one article, such maintenance involving the editing of only one article, whereas a category requires the editing of many articles. Contentious information is better discussed in article space rather than category space, since categories allow no annotation, references or counter points. Hiding Talk 09:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Anti-heroes

I nominate this catagory for the same basic reason I nominated the list article of the same topic. Please see the AfD vote for that article. This catagory is basically the list in catagory form. CaveatLector Talk 21:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Oppose Deletion or Keep: Categories are more organized and easier to maintain than lists.-- Zpb52 22:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Support deletion - clearly better as a list. Who can determine which characters count as what? The lines between hero and anti-hero are blurred. At least a list has the possibility of referencing, and including debate in marginal cases. A category is a binary system - you're in or you're out - without the possibility of discussion or explanation. It is unsuitable in such a case. The reason the list was deleted was it was even felt that a list would be unsuitable for something so "fuzzy" around the edges. I can't see that we should keep the category, for which fuzziness is an even more critical problem. Maintenance is not the issue, it is scope and clarity, and this category fails that test. Incidentally, I would have voted "keep" to the list - if it comes up for undeletion, I would be happy to support. TheGrappler 23:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Fuzzy term, applied so often that any protagonist with any prominent flaws or negative characteristics (which is most of them) will be called an anti-hero at some point. A category (or, for that matter, a list) that covers characters ranging from Hamlet to Wolverine is too broad to be useful. - Sean Curtin 04:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Real concept, but deciding who to apply it to is not so simple as to justify a category. The reasons for deleting the list apply with even greater force to the category. Postdlf 21:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per The Grappler. Hawkestone 14:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strongly Keep It's under the catagory "stock characters," which qualifies it for encyclopedia material. Besides, it's interesting to read. I don't see why you want to delete it. Eirra 23:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC) eirra reply
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Fictional births

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Huge possible scope, not very useful. Arniep 20:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Well the category could theoretically get very large if we included all fictional characters, but maybe in reality not many of them actually have articles. Arniep 00:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
If the categories get too big it can be possible to divide it further, such as fictional television characters born in the 1960s, fictional literature characters born in the 1960s, etc. Q0 01:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Information not available, or only available via original research extrapolation, in many (most?) cases. Better to categorize characters by the time period in which their stories occurred. - Sean Curtin 04:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: It has been my experience that with most fictional television characters, the decade of birth is well established. For example, the character Balki Bartokomous turned 25 in an episode that took place in 1989. This establishes his year of birth to be 1964. The character Quinn Mallory had a dream where he died and his grave read 1973-1996. This establishes his year of birth to be 1973. Marty McFly was 17 in 1985, which makes his year of birth either 1967 or 1968. Some of these cases require simple arithmetic to establish year of birth, but I don't think doing 1985-17=1968 should qualify as original research. Some of these cases like Marty McFly do not establish a specific year of birth because it could be one of two years. However, although the year of birth in Marty McFly's case is ambiguous, the decade of birth is not, which is why I categorized by decade of birth instead of year of birth. If the categories were by individual year of birth instead of decade, then I would agree that categorization would be too difficult and would agree to delete, but I think categorization by decade of birth can work very well. Q0 05:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Sean Curtin. Postdlf 21:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep I thought it was stupid and pointless at first glance but now I think it's useful, so I'm going to try and help save it. But if it gets deleted, I won't be too fussed... — Chantessy 21:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Requires original research in too many cases. Golfcam 01:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: In one episode, Quinn Mallory's year of birth is explicitly stated as being 1973. In one episode, Steve Urkel's year of birth is explicitly stated as being 1977. George McFly's birthdate is explicitly stated as April 1, 1938. Then there are other cases where the age and current year are explicitly stated, such as in Wade Welles, who is stated as being 23 in 1996. I don't think it should be considered original research to do a simple arithmetic computation like 1996-23=1973. Q0 03:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
      • Comment: It's not original research. If we don't know a birthdate, we don't bother to add a fictional birth category. Simple as that. — Chantessy 14:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
        • Comment: Exactly. In cases where the character's decade/year of birth or current age along with current year are never explicitly stated then we will simply not categorize that fictional character by a decade of birth. Then the categories by decade of birth will only be added to fictional characters where the decade of birth (or age with current year) is explicitly stated. Q0 15:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a fansite. Hawkestone 22:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment I don't understand how Wikipedia not being a fansite means that these categories should be deleted. Even though Wikipedia is not a fansite, Wikipedia still allows articles about fictional characters to be written, and does have categories that are specifically intended to be used for articles about fictional characters. Q0 01:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Fairuse rationale needed images and Category:Fairuse rationale needed images as of 12 May 2006

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The result of the debate was delete both. Syrthiss 12:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Created in a duplication of effort, Category:Images with no fair use rationale has been populated instead. Stifle ( talk) 19:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish composers and songwriters to Category:Jewish classical musicians

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The result of the debate was no consensus. Syrthiss 12:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

The Jewish composers and songwriters category is almost completely redundant with the Jewish classical musicians category. Surfing through the pages, I found a good deal over half the composers listed in Jewish Composers and songwriters are already mentioned in Jewish classical musicians, filling up the subsequent articles with two very lengthy and unnecessary categories. I propose a merge between these two categories, and the removal of those songwriters who do not fit the criteria of "classical." If felt necessary, a Category:Jewish songwriters could be made for those removed, though a songwriter can just as easily fit in Category:Jewish musicians. If all Jewish composers are already listed in Jewish classical musicians, then this category can simply be deleted instead of merged. A final alternative could be to make a Category:Jewish composers for all Jewish composers, and keep Category:Jewish classical musicians for only performers...this can be discussed later though. Antidote 18:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Oppose many classical musicians are not composers or songwriters (although many songwriters and composers are known as musicians in their own right). Arniep 20:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose main option, support second option of splitting "composers and songwriters" - even widespread crossover does not imply redundancy if there is a reasonably drawn distinction in purpose of categories. The unusual "lumping" of songwriters and composers, however, has split these categories off from the category tree for composers and songwriters; this should be rectified. TheGrappler 23:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
I imagine there are more composers than songwriters so it would easier to rename the category Category:Jewish composers, and then move the songwriters manually into the new cat Category:Jewish songwriters. Arniep 00:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
That's exactly what I was suggesting :-/. Antidote 01:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Variants of instant-runoff voting

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The result of the debate was Speedy delete. Vegaswikian 18:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 17:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Sega Genesis games

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

This category has been usurped by Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games after debate on its talk page, and is now entirely depopulated. ThomasHarte 16:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Sega Genesis emulators to Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis emulators

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The result of the debate was rename sega rename rename sega. Syrthiss 12:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

After much discussion it was agreed that the machine article should be Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, the current category for games is Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games and every emulator of the "Genesis" that I've tried has a Mega Drive option, even if sometimes only the 60 Hz Japanese Mega Drive rather than the 50 Hz Australian and European version. To name the category after the North American-only version of the console is to introduce a cultural bias into the English language wikipedia which, besides bordering on non-neutral point of view, isn't reflected by the entirety of the English speaking world. ThomasHarte 16:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Um, yeah. Bias. Anyways, all you really needed to say is "Move to match parent category X". I was just wondering shouldn't it be Sega Mega Drive/Genesis? It is quite unusual to state "Sega" twice in the title. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
I have to admit that I would pick Sega Mega Drive/Genesis if given free choice, but it took absolutely ages to find an acceptable title for the article describing the console and became such a big row (key points: "Genesis" in the largest segment of the first-language English world, "Mega Drive" in the largest segment of the first-or-second language English world, putting both in the title isn't very clean) that I've just accepted the thing. Given that that Category:Sega Genesis emulators was given that name last week, it seems that not everyone has. ThomasHarte 18:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Johannes Vermeer

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The result of the debate was rename with expansion of vermeer, keep paintings as is pending a mass rename of paintings cats. Syrthiss 12:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

relisted from 4 May for more opinions Tim! 15:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I think that the categories Category:Vermeer and Category:Vermeer paintings are more unambiguous when the first name of this famous painter is added to the category name, leading to Category:Johannes Vermeer and Category:Johannes Vermeer paintings. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 19:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I recall having read somewhere in the Wikipedia: namespace that category names should follow the corresponding article. Can't remember exactly where, I'll look into it. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 17:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Lists of basic topics

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Since lists are either lists of things or lists of topics and lists of either type have been added lately to only the regular lists categories, I don't see the reason to have this category any longer. I've made sure that each of the lists in this category are also in the appropriate subject-based Lists category. JeffW 14:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Linux web browsers to Category:POSIX web browsers

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 12:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply


This category incorrectly assumes that Unix web browsers only work on Linux, this is obviously wrong, since their dependancues rarely have anything to do with the kernel involved. These browsers work on Solaris, they work on FreeBSD and they work on some Linux distributions. Janizary 14:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Art magazines to Category:Art journals

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The result of the debate was kept. Syrthiss 12:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

The Art Newspaper etc. can then be included. HAM 14:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Question What's the difference between a magazine and a journal? If journal is more inclusive perhaps all the magazine categories should be renamed. -- JeffW 19:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose: Seems to me that journals are more of a professional or cultural publication, while magazines are popular publications. I say keep them separate. -- Zpb52 22:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Volatinia

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 11:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Voting systems quotas

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 11:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Fictional disfigured to Category:Fictional disfigured characters

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 12:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I find the old name slightly awkward. Tim! 10:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Tonal languages

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See( Category_talk:Tonal_languages) Oyd11 06:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. More than half of the world's 6000 languages are tonal. There is no point in having this category, since it will become overpopulated, hence unusable, hence useless. It would be about the same as Category:Men and Category:Women, only without the subcategories (since there is no agreement among linguists on a sensible way to subcategorize tonal languages). Additionally, the boundary between tonal and non-tonal languages is not clear at all, so this would lead to endless deliberations and discussions about whether or not to include borderline cases. To give an example, I see that Limburgish has been placed in this category; however, that language is only marginally tonal and certainly not a prototypical tone language, so I'd argue for removing it from the category. I'm sure someone else would disagree with that, and there you go. Delete this unusable and unmaintainable category before more people discover it and think 'wait, wasn't Norwegian tonal?'. — mark ✎ 06:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: I've put the 'cfd' after seeing the discussion page, however I don't have strong views to either side. I admit, the category, as such is confusing, indeed with examples such as Norwegian. To a degree, any language is tonal. Anyways, if the category is to be deleted, I suggest a clear list would be made, Tone_(linguistics) and Tonal language are 'difficult' to navigate through the way they are currently. Oyd11 22:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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The following 11 entries are from the uncategorized categories list. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Supporters Médecins Sans Frontières

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Supporters of Médecins Sans Frontières (typo). -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Teleconference

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Teleconferencing. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Space: fictional locations

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The result of the debate was merge. Syrthiss 13:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into: Category:Fictional areas in space. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Sony Cybershot cameras

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Sony CyberShot cameras (caps). -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:South American saints

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The result of the debate was speedied. Syrthiss 13:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

blanked by creator -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Fictional Knights Commander of the British Empire

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The result of the debate was already listed on May 8 Tim! 10:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Fictional British knights. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Florida International Golden Panthers basketball players

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The result of the debate was speedied. Syrthiss 13:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Florida International Golden Panthers men's basketball players. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Caviteńos

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The result of the debate was merge. Syrthiss 13:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into: Category:People from Cavite. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Can this be a speedy? They're practically the same thing. -- Howard the Duck | talk, 16:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I don't think it qualifies for speedy. -- ProveIt (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, rename per nom. -- Howard the Duck | talk, 09:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge

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The result of the debate was one is already deleted (merged?), rename other to cavendish laboratory. Syrthiss 13:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Cavendish Laboratory (physics), Cambridge. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Canadian Spaniards

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Baylor football coaches

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The result of the debate was deleted already. Syrthiss 13:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Baylor Bears football coaches. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Screamqueens

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category is entirely too subjective. One obvious example is Jamie Lee Curtis who has been in, and is known from, several movies besides Halloween Dismas| (talk) 05:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Rookies of the Year to Category:Baseball Rookies of the Year

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

All sports have rookies of the year, dab to specific sport. Category:MLB Rookies of the Year might be a better choice. Vegaswikian 05:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
*Maybe all American sports have rookies of the year, but in the circa 95% of the world where the structure of sport is not based around colleges and franchises the concept makes little sense and is not much used. Rename to Category:MLB Rookies of the Year if it is specific to MLB or to category:Baseball rookies of the year if it is not. The current proposal is miscapitalised. Bhoeble 06:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

*Rename to Category:MLB Rookies of the Year per Bhoeble. -- Zpb52 22:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Serial Arsonist to Category:Arsonists

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The result of the debate was merged already. Syrthiss 13:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Is this worth separating from Category:Arsonists? Probably not and it only contains one article. The capitalization is incorrect. ReeseM 04:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply


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Category:Conservative opposition to Hitler to Category:German conservatives opposed to the Third Reich

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

More accurate description of category's contents. Listify? David Kernow 04:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Leap day births

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

ie. people born on 29 February. These people have nothing meaningful in common as random coincidences are not encyclopedic. ReeseM 03:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply


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Category:People who has a Feud with 50 Cent

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The result of the debate was already deleted. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Listed for deletion by Zimbabweed.


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Category:Fictional disabled to Category:Fictional disabled characters

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The result of the debate was already moved to fictional disabled people I believe per may 12th cfd. Syrthiss 13:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

More informative. David Kernow 02:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC), amended 12:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish citizens of Hong Kong

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The result of the debate was deleted. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Empty; Bad cat, now moved to Category:Hong Kong Jews. Marcus 01:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish-Brazilians

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The result of the debate was deleted. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Empty; Bad cat, now moved to Category:Brazilian Jews. Marcus 01:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Input methods of Han characters to Category:Han character input

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Neater. David Kernow 00:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_13&oldid=1110513034"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< May 12 May 14 >

May 13

Categories starting Wikipedia:

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The result of the debate was rename per alternates. Syrthiss 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

And also

These, and the children mentioned, are every page which start with "Category:Wikipedia:". Using a double namespace as the start is not a good idea, because it's confusing for people and for the software (allpages's namespace filter breaks on these). For the majority of them I've suggested just replacing the colon with a space; the last two I've stripped off the "Wikipedia:" bit as unnecesary. There was a previous CfD nomination ( here), but it got very little traffic. The only sensible objection brought up then was compatibility with a 'planned' new namespace. I'd rather avoid current problems than possibly make things slightly easier if a future software change happens. SeventyThree( Talk) 00:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Note: I havn't put the tag on children of Category:Wikipedia:Sock puppets or Category:Wikipedia:Sock puppets, because there are so many and it didn't really seem worth it. SeventyThree( Talk) 00:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC) - I prefer the alternate proposal now (see below). SeventyThree( Talk) 05:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Rename Azeri and virtual guns categories per nom. Conscious 09:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Pokémon User Made Images

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Redundant in scope with Category:Pokémon images. Empty (it had one member, which was copyvio). Not necessary as a subcat of that category. - A Man In Bl1ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC). reply

A very good category. It can be used to place any image that the user created. To join the catageory, place Category:Pokémon User Made Images on the image page. You will like the way the category looks when there is lots of members — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iloveminun ( talk • contribs)

  • Delete Copyright is not limited to "official" images of things like this, all the various characters in the Pokémon "universe" is also copyrighted, so unfortunately drawing your own picture of a Pokémon character would still infringe on the rights of the creators of the series. IANAL naturaly, but I'm pretty sure that's the reason we are not flooded by cheap copies of pokemon comics and trading cards and what not, you simply can't make these things legaly without an explicit license from the creators of the thing. -- Sherool (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Alternate reality games to Category:Alternative reality games

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The result of the debate was keep. Conscious 20:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

see below SeventyThree( Talk) 22:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

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Category:Alternate reality to Category:Alternative reality

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The result of the debate was keep. Conscious 20:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

re-listing becasue they weren't tagged. I've now added the tags. Neutral SeventyThree( Talk) 22:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Proper English. — Timwi 11:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC) reply

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The result of the debate wasdelete. The categorisation structure, as stated by WP:CAT, should be mindful of NPOV; "Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category." The argument for deletion is in keeping with this notion, and the arguments for keeping the category offer little to counter this view, with one user asking it be kept because it exists in another category. I feel that point applies to the article Anti-hero rather than this category. The other point, that categories are more organised and easier to maintain is not essentially true, Lists can be said to be easier to maintain, exisiting as one article, such maintenance involving the editing of only one article, whereas a category requires the editing of many articles. Contentious information is better discussed in article space rather than category space, since categories allow no annotation, references or counter points. Hiding Talk 09:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Anti-heroes

I nominate this catagory for the same basic reason I nominated the list article of the same topic. Please see the AfD vote for that article. This catagory is basically the list in catagory form. CaveatLector Talk 21:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Oppose Deletion or Keep: Categories are more organized and easier to maintain than lists.-- Zpb52 22:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Support deletion - clearly better as a list. Who can determine which characters count as what? The lines between hero and anti-hero are blurred. At least a list has the possibility of referencing, and including debate in marginal cases. A category is a binary system - you're in or you're out - without the possibility of discussion or explanation. It is unsuitable in such a case. The reason the list was deleted was it was even felt that a list would be unsuitable for something so "fuzzy" around the edges. I can't see that we should keep the category, for which fuzziness is an even more critical problem. Maintenance is not the issue, it is scope and clarity, and this category fails that test. Incidentally, I would have voted "keep" to the list - if it comes up for undeletion, I would be happy to support. TheGrappler 23:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Fuzzy term, applied so often that any protagonist with any prominent flaws or negative characteristics (which is most of them) will be called an anti-hero at some point. A category (or, for that matter, a list) that covers characters ranging from Hamlet to Wolverine is too broad to be useful. - Sean Curtin 04:59, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Real concept, but deciding who to apply it to is not so simple as to justify a category. The reasons for deleting the list apply with even greater force to the category. Postdlf 21:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per The Grappler. Hawkestone 14:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strongly Keep It's under the catagory "stock characters," which qualifies it for encyclopedia material. Besides, it's interesting to read. I don't see why you want to delete it. Eirra 23:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC) eirra reply
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Fictional births

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Huge possible scope, not very useful. Arniep 20:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Well the category could theoretically get very large if we included all fictional characters, but maybe in reality not many of them actually have articles. Arniep 00:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
If the categories get too big it can be possible to divide it further, such as fictional television characters born in the 1960s, fictional literature characters born in the 1960s, etc. Q0 01:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete. Information not available, or only available via original research extrapolation, in many (most?) cases. Better to categorize characters by the time period in which their stories occurred. - Sean Curtin 04:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: It has been my experience that with most fictional television characters, the decade of birth is well established. For example, the character Balki Bartokomous turned 25 in an episode that took place in 1989. This establishes his year of birth to be 1964. The character Quinn Mallory had a dream where he died and his grave read 1973-1996. This establishes his year of birth to be 1973. Marty McFly was 17 in 1985, which makes his year of birth either 1967 or 1968. Some of these cases require simple arithmetic to establish year of birth, but I don't think doing 1985-17=1968 should qualify as original research. Some of these cases like Marty McFly do not establish a specific year of birth because it could be one of two years. However, although the year of birth in Marty McFly's case is ambiguous, the decade of birth is not, which is why I categorized by decade of birth instead of year of birth. If the categories were by individual year of birth instead of decade, then I would agree that categorization would be too difficult and would agree to delete, but I think categorization by decade of birth can work very well. Q0 05:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete per Sean Curtin. Postdlf 21:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Strong keep I thought it was stupid and pointless at first glance but now I think it's useful, so I'm going to try and help save it. But if it gets deleted, I won't be too fussed... — Chantessy 21:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Requires original research in too many cases. Golfcam 01:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment: In one episode, Quinn Mallory's year of birth is explicitly stated as being 1973. In one episode, Steve Urkel's year of birth is explicitly stated as being 1977. George McFly's birthdate is explicitly stated as April 1, 1938. Then there are other cases where the age and current year are explicitly stated, such as in Wade Welles, who is stated as being 23 in 1996. I don't think it should be considered original research to do a simple arithmetic computation like 1996-23=1973. Q0 03:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
      • Comment: It's not original research. If we don't know a birthdate, we don't bother to add a fictional birth category. Simple as that. — Chantessy 14:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
        • Comment: Exactly. In cases where the character's decade/year of birth or current age along with current year are never explicitly stated then we will simply not categorize that fictional character by a decade of birth. Then the categories by decade of birth will only be added to fictional characters where the decade of birth (or age with current year) is explicitly stated. Q0 15:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a fansite. Hawkestone 22:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
    • Comment I don't understand how Wikipedia not being a fansite means that these categories should be deleted. Even though Wikipedia is not a fansite, Wikipedia still allows articles about fictional characters to be written, and does have categories that are specifically intended to be used for articles about fictional characters. Q0 01:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Fairuse rationale needed images and Category:Fairuse rationale needed images as of 12 May 2006

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The result of the debate was delete both. Syrthiss 12:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Created in a duplication of effort, Category:Images with no fair use rationale has been populated instead. Stifle ( talk) 19:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish composers and songwriters to Category:Jewish classical musicians

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The result of the debate was no consensus. Syrthiss 12:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

The Jewish composers and songwriters category is almost completely redundant with the Jewish classical musicians category. Surfing through the pages, I found a good deal over half the composers listed in Jewish Composers and songwriters are already mentioned in Jewish classical musicians, filling up the subsequent articles with two very lengthy and unnecessary categories. I propose a merge between these two categories, and the removal of those songwriters who do not fit the criteria of "classical." If felt necessary, a Category:Jewish songwriters could be made for those removed, though a songwriter can just as easily fit in Category:Jewish musicians. If all Jewish composers are already listed in Jewish classical musicians, then this category can simply be deleted instead of merged. A final alternative could be to make a Category:Jewish composers for all Jewish composers, and keep Category:Jewish classical musicians for only performers...this can be discussed later though. Antidote 18:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Oppose many classical musicians are not composers or songwriters (although many songwriters and composers are known as musicians in their own right). Arniep 20:21, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose main option, support second option of splitting "composers and songwriters" - even widespread crossover does not imply redundancy if there is a reasonably drawn distinction in purpose of categories. The unusual "lumping" of songwriters and composers, however, has split these categories off from the category tree for composers and songwriters; this should be rectified. TheGrappler 23:58, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
I imagine there are more composers than songwriters so it would easier to rename the category Category:Jewish composers, and then move the songwriters manually into the new cat Category:Jewish songwriters. Arniep 00:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply
That's exactly what I was suggesting :-/. Antidote 01:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Variants of instant-runoff voting

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The result of the debate was Speedy delete. Vegaswikian 18:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 17:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Sega Genesis games

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

This category has been usurped by Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games after debate on its talk page, and is now entirely depopulated. ThomasHarte 16:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Sega Genesis emulators to Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis emulators

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The result of the debate was rename sega rename rename sega. Syrthiss 12:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

After much discussion it was agreed that the machine article should be Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, the current category for games is Category:Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games and every emulator of the "Genesis" that I've tried has a Mega Drive option, even if sometimes only the 60 Hz Japanese Mega Drive rather than the 50 Hz Australian and European version. To name the category after the North American-only version of the console is to introduce a cultural bias into the English language wikipedia which, besides bordering on non-neutral point of view, isn't reflected by the entirety of the English speaking world. ThomasHarte 16:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Um, yeah. Bias. Anyways, all you really needed to say is "Move to match parent category X". I was just wondering shouldn't it be Sega Mega Drive/Genesis? It is quite unusual to state "Sega" twice in the title. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply
I have to admit that I would pick Sega Mega Drive/Genesis if given free choice, but it took absolutely ages to find an acceptable title for the article describing the console and became such a big row (key points: "Genesis" in the largest segment of the first-language English world, "Mega Drive" in the largest segment of the first-or-second language English world, putting both in the title isn't very clean) that I've just accepted the thing. Given that that Category:Sega Genesis emulators was given that name last week, it seems that not everyone has. ThomasHarte 18:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Johannes Vermeer

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The result of the debate was rename with expansion of vermeer, keep paintings as is pending a mass rename of paintings cats. Syrthiss 12:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

relisted from 4 May for more opinions Tim! 15:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I think that the categories Category:Vermeer and Category:Vermeer paintings are more unambiguous when the first name of this famous painter is added to the category name, leading to Category:Johannes Vermeer and Category:Johannes Vermeer paintings. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 19:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I recall having read somewhere in the Wikipedia: namespace that category names should follow the corresponding article. Can't remember exactly where, I'll look into it. Aecis Mr. Mojo risin' 17:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Lists of basic topics

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 12:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Since lists are either lists of things or lists of topics and lists of either type have been added lately to only the regular lists categories, I don't see the reason to have this category any longer. I've made sure that each of the lists in this category are also in the appropriate subject-based Lists category. JeffW 14:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Linux web browsers to Category:POSIX web browsers

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 12:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply


This category incorrectly assumes that Unix web browsers only work on Linux, this is obviously wrong, since their dependancues rarely have anything to do with the kernel involved. These browsers work on Solaris, they work on FreeBSD and they work on some Linux distributions. Janizary 14:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Art magazines to Category:Art journals

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The result of the debate was kept. Syrthiss 12:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

The Art Newspaper etc. can then be included. HAM 14:06, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Question What's the difference between a magazine and a journal? If journal is more inclusive perhaps all the magazine categories should be renamed. -- JeffW 19:02, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose: Seems to me that journals are more of a professional or cultural publication, while magazines are popular publications. I say keep them separate. -- Zpb52 22:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Volatinia

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 11:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Voting systems quotas

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Unused. Conscious 11:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply

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Category:Fictional disfigured to Category:Fictional disfigured characters

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 12:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I find the old name slightly awkward. Tim! 10:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Tonal languages

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See( Category_talk:Tonal_languages) Oyd11 06:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

  • Delete. More than half of the world's 6000 languages are tonal. There is no point in having this category, since it will become overpopulated, hence unusable, hence useless. It would be about the same as Category:Men and Category:Women, only without the subcategories (since there is no agreement among linguists on a sensible way to subcategorize tonal languages). Additionally, the boundary between tonal and non-tonal languages is not clear at all, so this would lead to endless deliberations and discussions about whether or not to include borderline cases. To give an example, I see that Limburgish has been placed in this category; however, that language is only marginally tonal and certainly not a prototypical tone language, so I'd argue for removing it from the category. I'm sure someone else would disagree with that, and there you go. Delete this unusable and unmaintainable category before more people discover it and think 'wait, wasn't Norwegian tonal?'. — mark ✎ 06:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
  • Comment: I've put the 'cfd' after seeing the discussion page, however I don't have strong views to either side. I admit, the category, as such is confusing, indeed with examples such as Norwegian. To a degree, any language is tonal. Anyways, if the category is to be deleted, I suggest a clear list would be made, Tone_(linguistics) and Tonal language are 'difficult' to navigate through the way they are currently. Oyd11 22:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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The following 11 entries are from the uncategorized categories list. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category:Supporters Médecins Sans Frontières

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Supporters of Médecins Sans Frontières (typo). -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Teleconference

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Teleconferencing. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Space: fictional locations

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The result of the debate was merge. Syrthiss 13:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into: Category:Fictional areas in space. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Sony Cybershot cameras

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The result of the debate was Speedy Deleted. Vegaswikian 23:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Sony CyberShot cameras (caps). -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:South American saints

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The result of the debate was speedied. Syrthiss 13:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

blanked by creator -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Fictional Knights Commander of the British Empire

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The result of the debate was already listed on May 8 Tim! 10:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Fictional British knights. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Florida International Golden Panthers basketball players

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The result of the debate was speedied. Syrthiss 13:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Florida International Golden Panthers men's basketball players. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Caviteńos

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The result of the debate was merge. Syrthiss 13:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Merge into: Category:People from Cavite. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Can this be a speedy? They're practically the same thing. -- Howard the Duck | talk, 16:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

I don't think it qualifies for speedy. -- ProveIt (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC) reply
Well, rename per nom. -- Howard the Duck | talk, 09:40, 19 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge

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The result of the debate was one is already deleted (merged?), rename other to cavendish laboratory. Syrthiss 13:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Cavendish Laboratory (physics), Cambridge. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Canadian Spaniards

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The result of the debate was Speedy deleted. Vegaswikian 18:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Unused -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
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Category:Baylor football coaches

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The result of the debate was deleted already. Syrthiss 13:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

See: Category:Baylor Bears football coaches. -- ProveIt (talk) 05:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Screamqueens

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Category is entirely too subjective. One obvious example is Jamie Lee Curtis who has been in, and is known from, several movies besides Halloween Dismas| (talk) 05:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Rookies of the Year to Category:Baseball Rookies of the Year

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

All sports have rookies of the year, dab to specific sport. Category:MLB Rookies of the Year might be a better choice. Vegaswikian 05:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply
*Maybe all American sports have rookies of the year, but in the circa 95% of the world where the structure of sport is not based around colleges and franchises the concept makes little sense and is not much used. Rename to Category:MLB Rookies of the Year if it is specific to MLB or to category:Baseball rookies of the year if it is not. The current proposal is miscapitalised. Bhoeble 06:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply

*Rename to Category:MLB Rookies of the Year per Bhoeble. -- Zpb52 22:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Serial Arsonist to Category:Arsonists

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The result of the debate was merged already. Syrthiss 13:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Is this worth separating from Category:Arsonists? Probably not and it only contains one article. The capitalization is incorrect. ReeseM 04:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply


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Category:Conservative opposition to Hitler to Category:German conservatives opposed to the Third Reich

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

More accurate description of category's contents. Listify? David Kernow 04:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Leap day births

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The result of the debate was delete. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

ie. people born on 29 February. These people have nothing meaningful in common as random coincidences are not encyclopedic. ReeseM 03:39, 13 May 2006 (UTC). reply


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Category:People who has a Feud with 50 Cent

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The result of the debate was already deleted. Syrthiss 13:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Listed for deletion by Zimbabweed.


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Category:Fictional disabled to Category:Fictional disabled characters

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The result of the debate was already moved to fictional disabled people I believe per may 12th cfd. Syrthiss 13:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

More informative. David Kernow 02:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC), amended 12:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish citizens of Hong Kong

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The result of the debate was deleted. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Empty; Bad cat, now moved to Category:Hong Kong Jews. Marcus 01:36, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Jewish-Brazilians

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The result of the debate was deleted. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Empty; Bad cat, now moved to Category:Brazilian Jews. Marcus 01:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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Category:Input methods of Han characters to Category:Han character input

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The result of the debate was rename. Syrthiss 13:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) reply

Neater. David Kernow 00:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC) reply


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