The following discussion comes from Wikipedia:Categories for deletion. This is an archive of the discussion only; please do not edit this page. - Kbdank71 15:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We have a lot of "Something_by_country" categories and a lot of inconsistency in naming. Sometimes, we see e.g. "French places", other times, e.g. "Places in France". In the cases nominated below, I propose that we standardize on the "Foo in/of/from CountryName" style. (There are other cases with the same problem, but which are more complicated or controversial.)
-- Beland 02:25, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Note: I'm starting to pull out individual sections that seem to have reached a consensus for listing at /resolved under '"By country" categorization'. - Aranel ("Sarah") 17:17, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My problem with the current apparent consensus is that it is focused on state boundaries and not on ethnicity, language and community definitions. This is most obviously illustrated by the 'stateless' or unresolved states, such as the " Palestinian" categories discussed. For the Basque Country, there are two definable geographical entities plus many people and institutions beyond that can be identified as Basque. So Category:Sportspeople of the Basque Country is not as useful as Category:Basque sportspeople. Kurdish categories necessarily straddle boundaries, so "of Kurdistan" does not make sense. Even with identified boundaries, there is too much grey with the "of foo" standard in many cases: Category:Serbian political parties is different to Category:Political parties of Serbia - there are many other examples in Central Europe alone. Perhaps we need both country and ethnic categories, but that seems overcomplicated. Mtiedemann 00:59, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Summary: Convention adopted, with no "X and Y" categories, and no "China" or "Taiwan".
When the pattern is "Foo of CountryName", I propose that the country name should be the same as it appears in the title of the article about that country, with an optional lowercase "the" if needed for grammatical purposes.
Entites on both the List of sovereign states and List_of_dependent_territories are currently included in "by country" categories. The European Union is also listed because it sometimes has its own category (for example, for EU elections). Those articles, and many titles, links, and references may need to be updated. Whatever standard forms we decide upon should also be submitted to Wikipedia:Manual of Style and documented there and/or on /resolved.
We also need to know what the convention will be so we can fix various By_country categories.
The following are the standard forms I think are appropriate, for the cases where there may be some ambiguity. -- Beland 02:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
(Note: Links to articles are shown only for reference; links obviously cannot appear in the actual title of a category.)
Congo-Brazzaville:
Congo-Kinshasa (formerly Zaire):
China:
Taiwan:
OK, I myself am having second thoughts. Maybe "China" and "Taiwan" would be clearer. Or at the very least, "Republic of China (Taiwan)"? This would break the convention of sticking with what the articles are named, though. Unless, uh, the articles are renamed. -- Beland 11:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ireland, when separated:
Ireland, when combined:
Greek and Turkish Cyprus usually have combined categories:
Independent country:
U.S. territory:
USSR when it existed and Russia today:
USSR when it existed and the same geographic region today:
When considered separately:
Others:
-- Beland 02:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Some more conventions...
As needed:
(Serbia and Montenegro are in a loose union; according to the article, Kosovo's status as a province of Serbia is disputed and it is currently under UN administration.)
Duh. Are you really going to do such a great reconstruction? Well, I agree, if you realy will be able to do this in right way, without the appearing tonns of red links :) My POV slightly differs in the following subtle moment: USSR when it existed and Russia today: * of Russia and the Soviet Union Namely, I think that it's not necessary to create superfluous categories like this one, because:
In "by country" categories, the preposition should be the same for all countries. For example, most countries have a "Category:Transportation in CountryName". Island nations should not have a "Category:Transportation on IslandName", even if there is only one island in the country. Instead, they should have the uniform, "Category:Transportation in CountryName".
Voting Summary: this was tough and I might have gotten it wrong ... Oppose - 3, Support - 1 after >1 month, with the consensus that the cases should be considered individually rather than as a group Courtland 00:39, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
Articles to rename:
Categories to rename:
The following discussion comes from Wikipedia:Categories for deletion. This is an archive of the discussion only; please do not edit this page. - Kbdank71 15:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
We have a lot of "Something_by_country" categories and a lot of inconsistency in naming. Sometimes, we see e.g. "French places", other times, e.g. "Places in France". In the cases nominated below, I propose that we standardize on the "Foo in/of/from CountryName" style. (There are other cases with the same problem, but which are more complicated or controversial.)
-- Beland 02:25, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Note: I'm starting to pull out individual sections that seem to have reached a consensus for listing at /resolved under '"By country" categorization'. - Aranel ("Sarah") 17:17, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My problem with the current apparent consensus is that it is focused on state boundaries and not on ethnicity, language and community definitions. This is most obviously illustrated by the 'stateless' or unresolved states, such as the " Palestinian" categories discussed. For the Basque Country, there are two definable geographical entities plus many people and institutions beyond that can be identified as Basque. So Category:Sportspeople of the Basque Country is not as useful as Category:Basque sportspeople. Kurdish categories necessarily straddle boundaries, so "of Kurdistan" does not make sense. Even with identified boundaries, there is too much grey with the "of foo" standard in many cases: Category:Serbian political parties is different to Category:Political parties of Serbia - there are many other examples in Central Europe alone. Perhaps we need both country and ethnic categories, but that seems overcomplicated. Mtiedemann 00:59, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Summary: Convention adopted, with no "X and Y" categories, and no "China" or "Taiwan".
When the pattern is "Foo of CountryName", I propose that the country name should be the same as it appears in the title of the article about that country, with an optional lowercase "the" if needed for grammatical purposes.
Entites on both the List of sovereign states and List_of_dependent_territories are currently included in "by country" categories. The European Union is also listed because it sometimes has its own category (for example, for EU elections). Those articles, and many titles, links, and references may need to be updated. Whatever standard forms we decide upon should also be submitted to Wikipedia:Manual of Style and documented there and/or on /resolved.
We also need to know what the convention will be so we can fix various By_country categories.
The following are the standard forms I think are appropriate, for the cases where there may be some ambiguity. -- Beland 02:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
(Note: Links to articles are shown only for reference; links obviously cannot appear in the actual title of a category.)
Congo-Brazzaville:
Congo-Kinshasa (formerly Zaire):
China:
Taiwan:
OK, I myself am having second thoughts. Maybe "China" and "Taiwan" would be clearer. Or at the very least, "Republic of China (Taiwan)"? This would break the convention of sticking with what the articles are named, though. Unless, uh, the articles are renamed. -- Beland 11:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ireland, when separated:
Ireland, when combined:
Greek and Turkish Cyprus usually have combined categories:
Independent country:
U.S. territory:
USSR when it existed and Russia today:
USSR when it existed and the same geographic region today:
When considered separately:
Others:
-- Beland 02:46, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Some more conventions...
As needed:
(Serbia and Montenegro are in a loose union; according to the article, Kosovo's status as a province of Serbia is disputed and it is currently under UN administration.)
Duh. Are you really going to do such a great reconstruction? Well, I agree, if you realy will be able to do this in right way, without the appearing tonns of red links :) My POV slightly differs in the following subtle moment: USSR when it existed and Russia today: * of Russia and the Soviet Union Namely, I think that it's not necessary to create superfluous categories like this one, because:
In "by country" categories, the preposition should be the same for all countries. For example, most countries have a "Category:Transportation in CountryName". Island nations should not have a "Category:Transportation on IslandName", even if there is only one island in the country. Instead, they should have the uniform, "Category:Transportation in CountryName".
Voting Summary: this was tough and I might have gotten it wrong ... Oppose - 3, Support - 1 after >1 month, with the consensus that the cases should be considered individually rather than as a group Courtland 00:39, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
Articles to rename:
Categories to rename: