The result was no consensus. There is clearly no consensus to delete. Whether to keep or to merge can be decided on the talk page. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Co-nomination with the article Windows Neptune.
WP:COI disclosure: I have trivial amounts of code that is probably present in these demo projects. I don't know how ten year old code presents a conflict other than a wish for historical accuracy.
The policy reason to delete this is lack of notability, and lack of sources. This article has one single third-party source. That is not enough to base a Wikipedia article on and we have a lack of both verifiability and truth here.
The second reason to delete is that it is just plain wrong. The article contains several more statements that are completely unsourced and unremovable because of the efforts of people involved in a fan forum. The single source for this article, Paul Thurrot, is a somewhat reliable source in the context of Microsoft Windows, but not really. Paul Thurrot is like an über fan site. This is an instance where he is not reliable because in this timeframe of publication, what he says is speculation. Paul Thurrot publishes two kinds of speculation: his own, and what he is leaked from inside Microsoft. What is leaked isn't reliable either because he is fed misinformation on purpose. (Remember that COI disclosure? I'm a better RS than Paul Thurrot. I've edited and been published by Microsoft Press about Microsoft Windows, but not about this article.)
If you remove anything unsourced, you are left with one sentence. If you look at that sentence from the position that it was speculation you are left with nothing. There is a proper place for what little public information exists about this project, it is the article Development of Windows XP. Unfortunately, trying to enforce a redirect is blocked by the efforts of a fan forum where a handful of people trade old Windows releases on BitTorrent who then write about their entirely original research "findings" on Wikipedia. Ars Technica even wrote an article based on the OR in Wikipedia - that is the horrible situation the OR policy is designed to prevent, we risk basing further references on stuff that first appeared, wrongly, in Wikipedia. The proper thing to do with these two articles is Delete, redirect, and protect SchmuckyTheCat ( talk) 03:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Also, as for sources, the articles are sourced by the screenshots inside them. To consider those screenshots un-reliable sources, would mean essentially, that you think, that they're fake, which can be considered as a personal attack at the users who uploaded them, since you call them fakers, and frauds, basically.
The screen-shots come from BetaArchive.co.uk, which is the top internet forum for Operating System Alpha's, and Beta's, and the screen-shots were made by a reliable user of that forum.
Also, there are on-line available Microsoft anti-trust law-suit documents, which further prove, that Windows Neptune (spelled NepTune in those documents), was planned to be the successor to Windows 2000. Also, even a Service Pack was planned for it, codenamed Triton. Again, mentioned in those documents.
And to prove, that Odyssey was supposed to be NT 6.0, there are the sources by Paul Thurrott.
So I think, that there are more, than enough sources available on-line for these two articles. Also, SchmuckyTheCat, you have made mistakes about Windows before, such as when you claimed, that Windows 3.2 Simplified Chinese had for Workgroups features, which Wengier Wu from the China DOS Union later successfully proved wrong, so I would kindly ask you to refrain from labelling yourself as an expert, when you made such an elementary mistake before. - OBrasilo ( talk) 01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
3 verifiable sources in article: http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/windowsxp_gold.asp, http://www.winhistory.de/more/nept.htm (in german), screenshots at http://neosmart.net/gallery/v/os/Neptune/ more outside of article: http://www.activewin.com/faq/neptune.shtml google gives many results to good sources There are multiple external verifiable sources on this topic. 174.112.211.143 ( talk) 02:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Win-history de isn't a forum. It has a forum but it's different. Microsoft also has discussion forum, but that doesn't make Microsoft themselves a discussion forum.
As for an user-generated site - someone tested it, and published a site about Neptune, Wikipedia then can use this site.
So it's YOU here, who rejects any site about it, as un-reliable. If Microsoft posted their own article about it, you'd say it's un-reliable. If an independent source tests Neptune, and post their own site about it, you say it's un-reliable. So what kind of sources do you want for it? It's an old OS, no major publication will talk about it anymore.
Also, I mentioned the Anti-Trust lawsuit documents as a source for it, which you clearly ignored.
You also consistently ignore my comments about your own unreliability for judgment and writing articles on Windows. You couldn't even get the features of Windows 3.2 Simplified Chinese right, and you're expecting us to let you have your own way with two articles of something more important?
And again, how many sources are there for Windows Nashville? Yet, you have no problems with that staying, but you have problems with Windows Neptune, and Windows Odyssey staying. Taking double standard, are we?
Not to mention, you worked for MS, so you're involved in the company, and might be trying to cover up facts about Neptune, and Odyssey, hence your insistance on having the articles converted to mere redirects. Now, it's up to YOU to prove it's not so. - OBrasilo ( talk) 21:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Merge with/redirect to Development of Windows XP WP:Verifiability != WP:Notability. The article is poorly sourced, perhaps, but that alone is not a reason for deletion. The fact is that any 'insiders' are probably breaking confidentiality agreements, which is illegal. The second fact is that these insiders have a conflict of interest. This does not necessarily mean these editors cannot work on the article, but it does mean that they have a bias towards its notability. Here-say is not verifiable, and constitutes WP:Original research. Again, however, this is not a reason for deletion. Any Windows product is notable. However, what should be looked at is what is done with other codenames. Windows Longhorn redirects to the Development of Windows Vista. Likewise, these two should redirect to Development of Windows XP (as should Windows Whistler now that I look at it). The material on the page should be moved into that article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC) reply
The result was no consensus. There is clearly no consensus to delete. Whether to keep or to merge can be decided on the talk page. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Co-nomination with the article Windows Neptune.
WP:COI disclosure: I have trivial amounts of code that is probably present in these demo projects. I don't know how ten year old code presents a conflict other than a wish for historical accuracy.
The policy reason to delete this is lack of notability, and lack of sources. This article has one single third-party source. That is not enough to base a Wikipedia article on and we have a lack of both verifiability and truth here.
The second reason to delete is that it is just plain wrong. The article contains several more statements that are completely unsourced and unremovable because of the efforts of people involved in a fan forum. The single source for this article, Paul Thurrot, is a somewhat reliable source in the context of Microsoft Windows, but not really. Paul Thurrot is like an über fan site. This is an instance where he is not reliable because in this timeframe of publication, what he says is speculation. Paul Thurrot publishes two kinds of speculation: his own, and what he is leaked from inside Microsoft. What is leaked isn't reliable either because he is fed misinformation on purpose. (Remember that COI disclosure? I'm a better RS than Paul Thurrot. I've edited and been published by Microsoft Press about Microsoft Windows, but not about this article.)
If you remove anything unsourced, you are left with one sentence. If you look at that sentence from the position that it was speculation you are left with nothing. There is a proper place for what little public information exists about this project, it is the article Development of Windows XP. Unfortunately, trying to enforce a redirect is blocked by the efforts of a fan forum where a handful of people trade old Windows releases on BitTorrent who then write about their entirely original research "findings" on Wikipedia. Ars Technica even wrote an article based on the OR in Wikipedia - that is the horrible situation the OR policy is designed to prevent, we risk basing further references on stuff that first appeared, wrongly, in Wikipedia. The proper thing to do with these two articles is Delete, redirect, and protect SchmuckyTheCat ( talk) 03:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Also, as for sources, the articles are sourced by the screenshots inside them. To consider those screenshots un-reliable sources, would mean essentially, that you think, that they're fake, which can be considered as a personal attack at the users who uploaded them, since you call them fakers, and frauds, basically.
The screen-shots come from BetaArchive.co.uk, which is the top internet forum for Operating System Alpha's, and Beta's, and the screen-shots were made by a reliable user of that forum.
Also, there are on-line available Microsoft anti-trust law-suit documents, which further prove, that Windows Neptune (spelled NepTune in those documents), was planned to be the successor to Windows 2000. Also, even a Service Pack was planned for it, codenamed Triton. Again, mentioned in those documents.
And to prove, that Odyssey was supposed to be NT 6.0, there are the sources by Paul Thurrott.
So I think, that there are more, than enough sources available on-line for these two articles. Also, SchmuckyTheCat, you have made mistakes about Windows before, such as when you claimed, that Windows 3.2 Simplified Chinese had for Workgroups features, which Wengier Wu from the China DOS Union later successfully proved wrong, so I would kindly ask you to refrain from labelling yourself as an expert, when you made such an elementary mistake before. - OBrasilo ( talk) 01:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
3 verifiable sources in article: http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/windowsxp_gold.asp, http://www.winhistory.de/more/nept.htm (in german), screenshots at http://neosmart.net/gallery/v/os/Neptune/ more outside of article: http://www.activewin.com/faq/neptune.shtml google gives many results to good sources There are multiple external verifiable sources on this topic. 174.112.211.143 ( talk) 02:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Win-history de isn't a forum. It has a forum but it's different. Microsoft also has discussion forum, but that doesn't make Microsoft themselves a discussion forum.
As for an user-generated site - someone tested it, and published a site about Neptune, Wikipedia then can use this site.
So it's YOU here, who rejects any site about it, as un-reliable. If Microsoft posted their own article about it, you'd say it's un-reliable. If an independent source tests Neptune, and post their own site about it, you say it's un-reliable. So what kind of sources do you want for it? It's an old OS, no major publication will talk about it anymore.
Also, I mentioned the Anti-Trust lawsuit documents as a source for it, which you clearly ignored.
You also consistently ignore my comments about your own unreliability for judgment and writing articles on Windows. You couldn't even get the features of Windows 3.2 Simplified Chinese right, and you're expecting us to let you have your own way with two articles of something more important?
And again, how many sources are there for Windows Nashville? Yet, you have no problems with that staying, but you have problems with Windows Neptune, and Windows Odyssey staying. Taking double standard, are we?
Not to mention, you worked for MS, so you're involved in the company, and might be trying to cover up facts about Neptune, and Odyssey, hence your insistance on having the articles converted to mere redirects. Now, it's up to YOU to prove it's not so. - OBrasilo ( talk) 21:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC) reply
Merge with/redirect to Development of Windows XP WP:Verifiability != WP:Notability. The article is poorly sourced, perhaps, but that alone is not a reason for deletion. The fact is that any 'insiders' are probably breaking confidentiality agreements, which is illegal. The second fact is that these insiders have a conflict of interest. This does not necessarily mean these editors cannot work on the article, but it does mean that they have a bias towards its notability. Here-say is not verifiable, and constitutes WP:Original research. Again, however, this is not a reason for deletion. Any Windows product is notable. However, what should be looked at is what is done with other codenames. Windows Longhorn redirects to the Development of Windows Vista. Likewise, these two should redirect to Development of Windows XP (as should Windows Whistler now that I look at it). The material on the page should be moved into that article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC) reply