The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Considering that the article has no inline references, cites only one source, which is non-English and therefore difficult to verify, and moreover of
disputed reliability, I must give more weight to the reasonable concerns that this content is unverifiable (
WP:V). This does not prevent the recreation of a better-sourced new article. Sandstein 11:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)reply
For a number of reasons. Historically the war was an invasion of territory rather than an uprising so even the previous attempt at a Redirect to
Iga Province#History would not work. The entire article is a fiction couched in historical events. There was no uprising of ninja clans - the single source is not reliable and could be nothing more than an attempt to enforce a romantic view or mixing up of fact with fictional role playing games.
Peter Rehse (
talk)
16:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep and move. The article as it stands is certainly a mess, but claiming it to be fiction is going a bridge too far. The incident described by the article (the two Oda invasions of Iga province) is historical and notable, as was the so-called "Iga Republic". I don't understand why the "uprising" in the article's title is being given such significance, as it's a legitimate (if not particularly good) translation of the 乱 in the most common Japanese name of the topic, but a better title would probably be the Tensho Iga War.--
Cckerberos (
talk)
03:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment The historically correct and relevant part of the article is already covered in
Iga Province#History. The article duplicates that and then adds a whole incoherent mess which distorts the events. For that reason a redirect is the least option. The outright deletion was because the title reflected a fantasy role and the mass of redirects generated by the original author serves no purpose.
Peter Rehse (
talk)
10:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment How does it distort the events? What is fictional about the contents? You provide no specifics in your allegations, which make them very hard to respond to. I don't speak Russian and therefore can't check the source, but remove or tone down the mentions of ninja and I find no major inaccuracies in the article's content. Instead, the main problem as it stands now is that it is confusing to follow and is (except for a couple paragraphs in the body) concerned with ikki in the late Sengoku period rather than the subject of the article. That should be removed (and could be integrated into the article on the ikko ikki, I guess). But... there doesn't seem to be a real argument for deletion here, as far as I can see. Does the topic of the article (the Oda invasions of Iga province) meet the criteria for notability? Do reliable sources on the topic exist? The answer to both of those questions is yes (even if those reliable sources aren't currently being used). To me, that indicates that the solution is editing, not deletion. The title can be easily changed, and a redirect to the Iga province article seems unreasonable since it has the same problems with sourcing and ninja material as this article and only includes a single sentence on the invasions. --
Cckerberos (
talk)
13:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
If one were to "remove or tone down the mentions of ninja" and it be edited and proper sources used, rather than the dubious Russian source (the reliability of which there is no way to confirm, while there are numerous reasons to put it in question)... how would it then be different from
Iga Province#History? The article has a dubious title, a single dubious source, it is written so badly as to confuse more than it informs and, at best, it merely duplicates what is present elsewhere, for no good reason. Aside from the title, any one of those is reason enough, on its own, to delete it. If you think the topic deserves an article... either completely re-write the article, or let it be deleted and then write a new one, once you are able to.
Comment Any part of the article that is covered by the Russian source, but not other (reliable) sources, and which is not already covered in
Iga Province#History, is more or less a work of fiction. Well... whether it is or not, there is no reliable evidence that can be used to show the truth of any of it, so in practice, it is no different from fiction.--
ZarlanTheGreen (
talk)
17:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Considering that the article has no inline references, cites only one source, which is non-English and therefore difficult to verify, and moreover of
disputed reliability, I must give more weight to the reasonable concerns that this content is unverifiable (
WP:V). This does not prevent the recreation of a better-sourced new article. Sandstein 11:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)reply
For a number of reasons. Historically the war was an invasion of territory rather than an uprising so even the previous attempt at a Redirect to
Iga Province#History would not work. The entire article is a fiction couched in historical events. There was no uprising of ninja clans - the single source is not reliable and could be nothing more than an attempt to enforce a romantic view or mixing up of fact with fictional role playing games.
Peter Rehse (
talk)
16:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Keep and move. The article as it stands is certainly a mess, but claiming it to be fiction is going a bridge too far. The incident described by the article (the two Oda invasions of Iga province) is historical and notable, as was the so-called "Iga Republic". I don't understand why the "uprising" in the article's title is being given such significance, as it's a legitimate (if not particularly good) translation of the 乱 in the most common Japanese name of the topic, but a better title would probably be the Tensho Iga War.--
Cckerberos (
talk)
03:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment The historically correct and relevant part of the article is already covered in
Iga Province#History. The article duplicates that and then adds a whole incoherent mess which distorts the events. For that reason a redirect is the least option. The outright deletion was because the title reflected a fantasy role and the mass of redirects generated by the original author serves no purpose.
Peter Rehse (
talk)
10:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
Comment How does it distort the events? What is fictional about the contents? You provide no specifics in your allegations, which make them very hard to respond to. I don't speak Russian and therefore can't check the source, but remove or tone down the mentions of ninja and I find no major inaccuracies in the article's content. Instead, the main problem as it stands now is that it is confusing to follow and is (except for a couple paragraphs in the body) concerned with ikki in the late Sengoku period rather than the subject of the article. That should be removed (and could be integrated into the article on the ikko ikki, I guess). But... there doesn't seem to be a real argument for deletion here, as far as I can see. Does the topic of the article (the Oda invasions of Iga province) meet the criteria for notability? Do reliable sources on the topic exist? The answer to both of those questions is yes (even if those reliable sources aren't currently being used). To me, that indicates that the solution is editing, not deletion. The title can be easily changed, and a redirect to the Iga province article seems unreasonable since it has the same problems with sourcing and ninja material as this article and only includes a single sentence on the invasions. --
Cckerberos (
talk)
13:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
If one were to "remove or tone down the mentions of ninja" and it be edited and proper sources used, rather than the dubious Russian source (the reliability of which there is no way to confirm, while there are numerous reasons to put it in question)... how would it then be different from
Iga Province#History? The article has a dubious title, a single dubious source, it is written so badly as to confuse more than it informs and, at best, it merely duplicates what is present elsewhere, for no good reason. Aside from the title, any one of those is reason enough, on its own, to delete it. If you think the topic deserves an article... either completely re-write the article, or let it be deleted and then write a new one, once you are able to.
Comment Any part of the article that is covered by the Russian source, but not other (reliable) sources, and which is not already covered in
Iga Province#History, is more or less a work of fiction. Well... whether it is or not, there is no reliable evidence that can be used to show the truth of any of it, so in practice, it is no different from fiction.--
ZarlanTheGreen (
talk)
17:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.