- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Sandstein 08:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
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- Towdie ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
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None of the citations establish the notability of the game - they are all fan-made sites that simply confirm that it exists. The page was created for self-promotional reasons by the author of the game Special:Contributions/NeonPuffin aka Louis Wittek who also founded the company t that published it so WP:NOTYOU clearly applies. MrMajors ( talk) 12:42, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - what looks like a commercial release for the Spectrum is probably notable. I found [1] and [2] for example, whilst the SK:Towdie gives some links to some prints of magazine reviews, so there's likely a lot of that too. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 07:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- There are over 10,000 commercial Spectrum games. Simply existing is not a reason for a Wikipedia page. Further, if the author of the page, who is also the publisher of the original game, later wants to launch a kickstarter to sell another version of the game then that's further evidence of self-promotion and WP:NOTYOU rather than notability. MrMajors ( talk) 13:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- Also, the linked "magazine reviews" at SK:Towdie are from the magazine BiT, which was also published by Ultrasoft, so not an independent source either. MrMajors ( talk) 10:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I think that coverage of the game scrapes by WP:GNG due to modern coverage of the game and what I found in a quick Archive.org search - I found a review in ZX Magazín here and a brief mention in the Spain edition of Retro Gamer here. Waxworker ( talk) 00:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Provided sources need evaluation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Provided sources need evaluation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to
Ultrasoft as
alternative to deletion. Good point above about Bit being an affiliated source (see
cs:Ultrasoft). Absent
that main review, we don't have nearly enough
significant coverage on which to base a dedicated encyclopedia article. (not
watching, please
{{ ping}}) czar 04:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC) - Keep: per the references sourced by others and because it seems pretty unlikely that a commercial release like this would not have significant coverage in video game sources at the time. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 22:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- Comment (closing admin can count me as merge, but I'm not officially voting because there isn't going to be a consensus here) I thought about this for a long time. "commercial release for the Spectrum is probably notable" "unlikely that a commercial release like this would not have significant coverage in video game sources at the time" are both arguments that are exactly what we don't want to have on AfDs, WP:ITSNOTABLE and WP:MUSTBESOURCES. Now, for the modern sources above: Pocket Gamer's is a WP:ROUTINE short announcement coverage of a Kickstarter campaign, same for the Insider one (and the lack of an author makes me think it's possibly a press release rehash), and Retro Gamer is too brief to matter towards WP:GNG. Like mentioned above, Bit magazine is not independent from the developer, so it can't be counted towards notability either. That leaves ZX Magazín as the only source, and that doesn't an article make, especially with a developer's article around where it could easily live on being merged per WP:ATD. Jovanmilic97 ( talk) 08:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
*Delete per nom. Not enough references.
GamedevExpert
(Talk to GamedevExpert) 5:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC) A sockpuppet, apparently.
Haleth (
talk)
01:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - As a single detailed example from the extensive publishing history of Ultrasoft. The article has also value for future researches into history of 8-bit gaming, particularly video games for ZX Spectrum, and also as a probably sole (or at most one of very few) example(s) of professionally published ZX Spectrum games on the territory of former Czechoslovakia during the 1990s. NeonPuffin ( talk) 13:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- The creator of the page, who is also the publisher of the game clearly has a vested interest and is obviously going to vote to keep. They are also attempting to mislead others by stating this title is a "probably sole (or at most one of very few) example" while also claiming "over 40" published titles on the Ultrasoft page. MrMajors ( talk) 18:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Weak Keep in reference to the sources provided by
Waxworker and
Lee Vilenski.
Haleth (
talk)
02:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- Lee's two links are 404s. Waxworker links two blurbs. How do we write an article with that source material? czar 02:56, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. The ZX Magazin article shared above looks like
WP:SIGCOV, and I think it's safe to assume this commercial release would have had additional coverage at the time.
NemesisAT (
talk)
20:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- As per
WP:MUSTBESOURCES, it's not "safe to assume" that at all. This release was long after the ZX Spectrum was discontinued and no longer had coverage in mainstream video magazines.
MrMajors (
talk)
10:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- This comment only further proves that
MrMajors (
talk) has very limited knowledge of history of 8-bit home computers in
Central Europe – particularly in countries of the former
Eastern Bloc, yet he constantly tries to present himself as a distinct expert on the topic. Because of the
Iron Curtain and its long-lasting consequences, the era of 8-bit home computers was somewhat delayed there, for example
ZX Spectrum clone,
Didaktik was manufactured in
Czechoslovakia right until 1994, the year of publishing
Towdie and 8-bit home computers and their games enjoyed there great following well into the late 90s.
NeonPuffin (
talk)
15:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- "Knowledge of history" doesn't matter here. There is no significant coverage from reliable third parties. MrMajors ( talk) 17:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Official ZX Spectrum was discontinued by this time, but in soviet or eastern bloc regions clones were still very popular. (This game was produced in Slovakia.) Which also explains the lack of easily googled sources. Any sources that exist will be in Slovak or Russian. ApLundell ( talk) 22:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- This comment only further proves that
MrMajors (
talk) has very limited knowledge of history of 8-bit home computers in
Central Europe – particularly in countries of the former
Eastern Bloc, yet he constantly tries to present himself as a distinct expert on the topic. Because of the
Iron Curtain and its long-lasting consequences, the era of 8-bit home computers was somewhat delayed there, for example
ZX Spectrum clone,
Didaktik was manufactured in
Czechoslovakia right until 1994, the year of publishing
Towdie and 8-bit home computers and their games enjoyed there great following well into the late 90s.
NeonPuffin (
talk)
15:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- As per
WP:MUSTBESOURCES, it's not "safe to assume" that at all. This release was long after the ZX Spectrum was discontinued and no longer had coverage in mainstream video magazines.
MrMajors (
talk)
10:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Sandstein 08:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Towdie ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
None of the citations establish the notability of the game - they are all fan-made sites that simply confirm that it exists. The page was created for self-promotional reasons by the author of the game Special:Contributions/NeonPuffin aka Louis Wittek who also founded the company t that published it so WP:NOTYOU clearly applies. MrMajors ( talk) 12:42, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - what looks like a commercial release for the Spectrum is probably notable. I found [1] and [2] for example, whilst the SK:Towdie gives some links to some prints of magazine reviews, so there's likely a lot of that too. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 07:21, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- There are over 10,000 commercial Spectrum games. Simply existing is not a reason for a Wikipedia page. Further, if the author of the page, who is also the publisher of the original game, later wants to launch a kickstarter to sell another version of the game then that's further evidence of self-promotion and WP:NOTYOU rather than notability. MrMajors ( talk) 13:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
- Also, the linked "magazine reviews" at SK:Towdie are from the magazine BiT, which was also published by Ultrasoft, so not an independent source either. MrMajors ( talk) 10:42, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I think that coverage of the game scrapes by WP:GNG due to modern coverage of the game and what I found in a quick Archive.org search - I found a review in ZX Magazín here and a brief mention in the Spain edition of Retro Gamer here. Waxworker ( talk) 00:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Provided sources need evaluation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Provided sources need evaluation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde ( Talk) 01:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Merge to
Ultrasoft as
alternative to deletion. Good point above about Bit being an affiliated source (see
cs:Ultrasoft). Absent
that main review, we don't have nearly enough
significant coverage on which to base a dedicated encyclopedia article. (not
watching, please
{{ ping}}) czar 04:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC) - Keep: per the references sourced by others and because it seems pretty unlikely that a commercial release like this would not have significant coverage in video game sources at the time. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 22:51, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- Comment (closing admin can count me as merge, but I'm not officially voting because there isn't going to be a consensus here) I thought about this for a long time. "commercial release for the Spectrum is probably notable" "unlikely that a commercial release like this would not have significant coverage in video game sources at the time" are both arguments that are exactly what we don't want to have on AfDs, WP:ITSNOTABLE and WP:MUSTBESOURCES. Now, for the modern sources above: Pocket Gamer's is a WP:ROUTINE short announcement coverage of a Kickstarter campaign, same for the Insider one (and the lack of an author makes me think it's possibly a press release rehash), and Retro Gamer is too brief to matter towards WP:GNG. Like mentioned above, Bit magazine is not independent from the developer, so it can't be counted towards notability either. That leaves ZX Magazín as the only source, and that doesn't an article make, especially with a developer's article around where it could easily live on being merged per WP:ATD. Jovanmilic97 ( talk) 08:13, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
*Delete per nom. Not enough references.
GamedevExpert
(Talk to GamedevExpert) 5:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC) A sockpuppet, apparently.
Haleth (
talk)
01:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 14:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - As a single detailed example from the extensive publishing history of Ultrasoft. The article has also value for future researches into history of 8-bit gaming, particularly video games for ZX Spectrum, and also as a probably sole (or at most one of very few) example(s) of professionally published ZX Spectrum games on the territory of former Czechoslovakia during the 1990s. NeonPuffin ( talk) 13:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- The creator of the page, who is also the publisher of the game clearly has a vested interest and is obviously going to vote to keep. They are also attempting to mislead others by stating this title is a "probably sole (or at most one of very few) example" while also claiming "over 40" published titles on the Ultrasoft page. MrMajors ( talk) 18:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- Weak Keep in reference to the sources provided by
Waxworker and
Lee Vilenski.
Haleth (
talk)
02:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
- Lee's two links are 404s. Waxworker links two blurbs. How do we write an article with that source material? czar 02:56, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. The ZX Magazin article shared above looks like
WP:SIGCOV, and I think it's safe to assume this commercial release would have had additional coverage at the time.
NemesisAT (
talk)
20:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- As per
WP:MUSTBESOURCES, it's not "safe to assume" that at all. This release was long after the ZX Spectrum was discontinued and no longer had coverage in mainstream video magazines.
MrMajors (
talk)
10:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- This comment only further proves that
MrMajors (
talk) has very limited knowledge of history of 8-bit home computers in
Central Europe – particularly in countries of the former
Eastern Bloc, yet he constantly tries to present himself as a distinct expert on the topic. Because of the
Iron Curtain and its long-lasting consequences, the era of 8-bit home computers was somewhat delayed there, for example
ZX Spectrum clone,
Didaktik was manufactured in
Czechoslovakia right until 1994, the year of publishing
Towdie and 8-bit home computers and their games enjoyed there great following well into the late 90s.
NeonPuffin (
talk)
15:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- "Knowledge of history" doesn't matter here. There is no significant coverage from reliable third parties. MrMajors ( talk) 17:03, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The Official ZX Spectrum was discontinued by this time, but in soviet or eastern bloc regions clones were still very popular. (This game was produced in Slovakia.) Which also explains the lack of easily googled sources. Any sources that exist will be in Slovak or Russian. ApLundell ( talk) 22:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- This comment only further proves that
MrMajors (
talk) has very limited knowledge of history of 8-bit home computers in
Central Europe – particularly in countries of the former
Eastern Bloc, yet he constantly tries to present himself as a distinct expert on the topic. Because of the
Iron Curtain and its long-lasting consequences, the era of 8-bit home computers was somewhat delayed there, for example
ZX Spectrum clone,
Didaktik was manufactured in
Czechoslovakia right until 1994, the year of publishing
Towdie and 8-bit home computers and their games enjoyed there great following well into the late 90s.
NeonPuffin (
talk)
15:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- As per
WP:MUSTBESOURCES, it's not "safe to assume" that at all. This release was long after the ZX Spectrum was discontinued and no longer had coverage in mainstream video magazines.
MrMajors (
talk)
10:45, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.