The result was delete. A clear majority favors deletion, and after reviewing the dissenting voices, I feel that the "delete" side has made more persuasive arguments based on original research by synthesis and (more importantly) biased content forking. After reviewing the article text, I concur that it holds an anti-Tito bias, and the arguments presented on the "keep" side in this AFD argue for why that angle is right, rather than why it is neutral. I am also declining the merge requests, because I cannot see that there is a consensus for including any of this content in other articles (indeed, my impression is that there would be significant objections to that). Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC) reply
![]() | Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Wikipedia and supporting your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, remain civil, seek comments from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another. |
Classic WP:POVFORK. The very title of this is POV. The article was entirely written by a single editor User:Sir Floyd. It does not cite another source which backs up the clear WP:Synthesis essay which this is. In fact the first three sources cited talk about titoism and totalitarianism separately not as clearly the same thing. This article is already longer than the Titoism article itself and so does not even cut it as a standard split, therefore it is basic content forking even when the POV is not taken into account. Polargeo ( talk) 10:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC) reply
I accept some of the criticism as valid. It is possible that the article could be transferred into other related articles. All the information is well referenced and factual. Please check for yourselves. Concerning POV in the Tito article, I don’t recall any such information. The information that I contributed to the article was referenced from Encyclopaedia Britannica and the BBC History which then was removed. Also, Ivan Stambuk can you please not go down the path of insults. You mention I have problem with issues! Very nice indeed. Are these the issues that Tito and his government acted as Stalinist post WW2. Please read European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes". It is a government document. Here is the referenced link: European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 . Page 197. Chapter: Joze Dezman-Communist Repression & Transitional Justice in Slovenia (ex.republic of Yugoslavia). Sir Floyd ( talk) 04:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC) reply
I've taken some time to read up on WP:POV FORK problems in Wiki articles. Titoism and Totalitarianism does have these problems but the information is factual and can be merged into other articles or maybe even re-worked. The former Yugoslavia did have an authoritarian rule and did conduct political repression on a grand scale. It is my belief that these facts should be represented accordingly. It seems in the process of creating the article I ran into WP:POV FORK problems. This was mainly due to my inexperience. Additional: If I have used the meatpuppetry term incorrectly, my apologies! Sir Floyd ( talk) 02:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: Polargeo, Tito's crimes, as you put it, and the crimes done by Communist party of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav Partisans isn't referenced very well, so the article doesn't work?
I think that "European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008" backs-up the article very well, has anybody read it? Then their are the others:
Presented at the International Symposium for Investigation of the Bleiburg Tragedy Zagreb, Croatia and Bleiburg, Austria May 17 and 18, 1994.
Testimony-Eye Witness:
etc. Sir Floyd ( talk) 15:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: Hi Bojan! You have made some errors in the above statement.
(a) You wrote: "stated 24422 children were not in concentration camps" My sentence is: "their were 24 422 children in the camps in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1940s", but I see your point it's under the heading which is the problem. Thank you for pointing that out.
(b) That statement is sourced and named, please check: Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia by Mr Dizdar's Scientific Journal Page 66/Document page 182:
Note: This paper dedicated to the 60th anniversary of these tragic events represents a small step towards the elaboration of known data and brings a list of yet unknown and unpublished original documents, mostly belonging to the Yugoslavian Military and Political Government 1945-1947. Amongst those documents are those mostly relating to Croatian territory although a majority of concentration camps and execution sites were outside of Croatia, in other parts of Yugoslavia. The author hopes that the readers will receive a complete picture about events related to Bleiburg and the Way of The Cross and the suffering of numerous Croats, which is confirmed directly in many documents and is related to the execution of a person or a whole group of people and sometimes non-stop for days. (Zdravko Dizdar a Croatian Historian/Croatian Institute for History in Zagreb)
Note: The Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia (Slovene: Komisija za reševanje vprašanj prikritih grobišč) is an office of the Slovenian Government whose task is to find and document mass grave sites from the Second World War and the period immediately after it. It was established on November 10, 2005.
There is also Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Serbia (a former republic of Yugoslavia)
It follows thusly:
4. Survey of concentration camps in Slovenia (a former republic of Yugoslavia) in 1945.
4.1. Concentration camps for members of the German national minority
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Hrastovec near Sv. Lenart in Slovenske gorice
– Studenci near Maribor
– Brestrnica near Maribor
– Kamnica near Maribor
– Tezno near Maribor
– Teharje near Celje
4.2. Concentration camps for members of the Hungarian national minority
– Filovci in Prekmurje
– Hrastovec near Sv. Lenart in Slovenske gorice
– Strnišče near Ptuj
4.3. Concentration camps for members of the Slovenian Home-guard
– Teharje near Celje
– Škofovi zavodi in Št. Vid nad Ljubljano
– Škofja Loka
5. Survey of concentration camps in Slovenia from 1945 to 1951
5.1. Camps for forced labour – penal camps (1945–46)
– Kočevje
– Teharje near Celje
– Studenci near Maribor
– Brestrnica near Maribor
5.2. Camps for correctional labour – working groups (1949–51)
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Kočevje
– Rogoza near Maribor
– Prestranek near Postojna
– Pšata near Ljubljana
– Inlauf near Borovec in Kočevsko
5.3. Camps for socially beneficial labour – working groups (1949–51)
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Litostroj, Ljubljana
– Žale, Ljubljana
- Medvode
– Moste near Žirovnica
– Rajndol near Kočevje
– Ferdrenk in Kočevsko
– Škofja Loka
– Rajhenburg
End of Survey
Comment: According to Webster’s Dictionary, the political, economic, and social policies associated with Tito is called Titoism. These political, economic, and social policies were part of Yugoslavia. Here are some of the political, economic, and social policies of this government:
These policies are political repression and are backed up with References. Polargeo are you saying that these references don't back up the above statement. Sir Floyd ( talk) 11:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: The whole statement above is taken from: European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes". Here is the link: European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 Page 197. Joze Dezman: COMMUNIST REPRESSION AND TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE IN SLOVENIA
Another Example on page 53:
4.2.2. fake trials
In June 1945 group trials began against actual and imaginary opponents of the Communist system, particularly against representatives of cooperatives, banks and the economy. The authorities carried out numerous trials (Božič, Rupnik/Rožman, Bitenc) to compromise representatives of political opposition and the Catholic Church. Following the Soviet example, in summer 1947 the Slovene Party staged a great Stalinist political trial, the so-called Nagode trial (named after the first accused, Črtomir Nagode) in which 15 people were accused of treason and spying for Anglo-Americans. In May 1947, the Slovene secret police, the UDBA, arrested 32 highly educated intellectuals. Among them were Črtomir Nagode, Ljubo Sirc, Leon Kavčnik, Boris Furlan, Zoran Hribar, Angela Vode, Metod Kumelj, Pavla Hočevar, Svatopluk Zupan, Bogdan Stare, Metod Pirc, Vid Lajovic, Franjo Sirc, Elizabeta Hribar.
More examples:
In the greater part of this paper, the author deals with individual repressive measures that Communist rule imposed in Slovenia in the period from the end of the war in 1945 until the beginning of the 1950s. In this period, the Communist authorities in Slovenia implemented all the forms of repression that were typical of states with Stalinist regimes. In Slovenia, it was a time of mass killings without court trials, and of concentration and labour camps. Property was confiscated, inhabitants were expelled from Slovenia/Yugoslavia and their residences, political and show trials were carried out, religion was repressed and the Catholic Church and its clergy were persecuted. At the beginning of the 1950s, Communist rule in Slovenia abandoned these forms of repression but was ready to reapply them if it felt threatened. Thus the regime set up political and show trials against certain more visible opponents later. In the case of an “emergency situation”, even the establishment of concentration camps was planned in Slovenia in 1968, where around 1,000 persons, of whom 10 % were women, would be interned for political reasons. Page 161
(a) The Communist repression in Slovenia reached its peak in the first months after the war ended in 1945 with the carrying out of mass killings without court trials of so-called “national enemies”. As already implied in the term “killings without a court trial”, these were killings carried out without any proceedings before a court and without establishing the guilt of the individual victims.
(b) This happened despite the fact that military courts existed in those times in Slovenia that could judge alleged perpetrators of war crimes and other criminal acts in accordance with the provisions of the Regulation on Military Courts of the Supreme Headquarters of the National Liberation Army and POJ (Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia – PDY) of 24 May 1944. According to this regulation, which was still applicable during those times, only military courts were competent to issue death sentences. By implementing killings without a court trial, the Slovenian Communist authorities also grossly violated their own regulations on criminal justice. page 63
(Note: Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia estimated that there are 100 000 victims in 581 mass graves)
Additional:
“Virtually every communist system extinct or surviving at one point or another had a supreme leader who was both extraordinarily powerful and surrounded by a bizarre cult, indeed worship. These cults although apparently an intrinsic part of communist dictatorships (at any rate at a stage in their evolution are largely forgotten today.” “Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Sung, Enver Hoxha, Ceascesu, Dimitrov, Ulbricht, Gottwald, Tito and others all were the object of such cults. The prototypical cult was that of Stalin which was duplicated elsewhere with minor variations.” Page 337. (I text bold Tito so it is easier to read)
Paul Hollander: Ph.D in Sociology. Princeton University, 1963, B.A. London School of Economics, 1959 Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst Center Associate, Davis Center
The article is about authoritarian rule & political repression in the former Yugoslavia. Authoritarian rule & political repression are government policies of a Totalitarian State. These are just some of the political, economic, and social policies that were part of the former Yugoslavia, backed up by sources. These policies are often referred to as Titoism (The term was coined during the Tito -Stalin split/check) There are other policies that are associated with Titoism, that are better know, but the article is about political repression in the former Yugoslavia. Sir Floyd ( talk) 23:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. A clear majority favors deletion, and after reviewing the dissenting voices, I feel that the "delete" side has made more persuasive arguments based on original research by synthesis and (more importantly) biased content forking. After reviewing the article text, I concur that it holds an anti-Tito bias, and the arguments presented on the "keep" side in this AFD argue for why that angle is right, rather than why it is neutral. I am also declining the merge requests, because I cannot see that there is a consensus for including any of this content in other articles (indeed, my impression is that there would be significant objections to that). Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC) reply
![]() | Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Wikipedia and supporting your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, remain civil, seek comments from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another. |
Classic WP:POVFORK. The very title of this is POV. The article was entirely written by a single editor User:Sir Floyd. It does not cite another source which backs up the clear WP:Synthesis essay which this is. In fact the first three sources cited talk about titoism and totalitarianism separately not as clearly the same thing. This article is already longer than the Titoism article itself and so does not even cut it as a standard split, therefore it is basic content forking even when the POV is not taken into account. Polargeo ( talk) 10:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC) reply
I accept some of the criticism as valid. It is possible that the article could be transferred into other related articles. All the information is well referenced and factual. Please check for yourselves. Concerning POV in the Tito article, I don’t recall any such information. The information that I contributed to the article was referenced from Encyclopaedia Britannica and the BBC History which then was removed. Also, Ivan Stambuk can you please not go down the path of insults. You mention I have problem with issues! Very nice indeed. Are these the issues that Tito and his government acted as Stalinist post WW2. Please read European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes". It is a government document. Here is the referenced link: European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 . Page 197. Chapter: Joze Dezman-Communist Repression & Transitional Justice in Slovenia (ex.republic of Yugoslavia). Sir Floyd ( talk) 04:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC) reply
I've taken some time to read up on WP:POV FORK problems in Wiki articles. Titoism and Totalitarianism does have these problems but the information is factual and can be merged into other articles or maybe even re-worked. The former Yugoslavia did have an authoritarian rule and did conduct political repression on a grand scale. It is my belief that these facts should be represented accordingly. It seems in the process of creating the article I ran into WP:POV FORK problems. This was mainly due to my inexperience. Additional: If I have used the meatpuppetry term incorrectly, my apologies! Sir Floyd ( talk) 02:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: Polargeo, Tito's crimes, as you put it, and the crimes done by Communist party of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav Partisans isn't referenced very well, so the article doesn't work?
I think that "European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008" backs-up the article very well, has anybody read it? Then their are the others:
Presented at the International Symposium for Investigation of the Bleiburg Tragedy Zagreb, Croatia and Bleiburg, Austria May 17 and 18, 1994.
Testimony-Eye Witness:
etc. Sir Floyd ( talk) 15:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: Hi Bojan! You have made some errors in the above statement.
(a) You wrote: "stated 24422 children were not in concentration camps" My sentence is: "their were 24 422 children in the camps in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1940s", but I see your point it's under the heading which is the problem. Thank you for pointing that out.
(b) That statement is sourced and named, please check: Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia by Mr Dizdar's Scientific Journal Page 66/Document page 182:
Note: This paper dedicated to the 60th anniversary of these tragic events represents a small step towards the elaboration of known data and brings a list of yet unknown and unpublished original documents, mostly belonging to the Yugoslavian Military and Political Government 1945-1947. Amongst those documents are those mostly relating to Croatian territory although a majority of concentration camps and execution sites were outside of Croatia, in other parts of Yugoslavia. The author hopes that the readers will receive a complete picture about events related to Bleiburg and the Way of The Cross and the suffering of numerous Croats, which is confirmed directly in many documents and is related to the execution of a person or a whole group of people and sometimes non-stop for days. (Zdravko Dizdar a Croatian Historian/Croatian Institute for History in Zagreb)
Note: The Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia (Slovene: Komisija za reševanje vprašanj prikritih grobišč) is an office of the Slovenian Government whose task is to find and document mass grave sites from the Second World War and the period immediately after it. It was established on November 10, 2005.
There is also Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Serbia (a former republic of Yugoslavia)
It follows thusly:
4. Survey of concentration camps in Slovenia (a former republic of Yugoslavia) in 1945.
4.1. Concentration camps for members of the German national minority
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Hrastovec near Sv. Lenart in Slovenske gorice
– Studenci near Maribor
– Brestrnica near Maribor
– Kamnica near Maribor
– Tezno near Maribor
– Teharje near Celje
4.2. Concentration camps for members of the Hungarian national minority
– Filovci in Prekmurje
– Hrastovec near Sv. Lenart in Slovenske gorice
– Strnišče near Ptuj
4.3. Concentration camps for members of the Slovenian Home-guard
– Teharje near Celje
– Škofovi zavodi in Št. Vid nad Ljubljano
– Škofja Loka
5. Survey of concentration camps in Slovenia from 1945 to 1951
5.1. Camps for forced labour – penal camps (1945–46)
– Kočevje
– Teharje near Celje
– Studenci near Maribor
– Brestrnica near Maribor
5.2. Camps for correctional labour – working groups (1949–51)
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Kočevje
– Rogoza near Maribor
– Prestranek near Postojna
– Pšata near Ljubljana
– Inlauf near Borovec in Kočevsko
5.3. Camps for socially beneficial labour – working groups (1949–51)
– Strnišče near Ptuj
– Litostroj, Ljubljana
– Žale, Ljubljana
- Medvode
– Moste near Žirovnica
– Rajndol near Kočevje
– Ferdrenk in Kočevsko
– Škofja Loka
– Rajhenburg
End of Survey
Comment: According to Webster’s Dictionary, the political, economic, and social policies associated with Tito is called Titoism. These political, economic, and social policies were part of Yugoslavia. Here are some of the political, economic, and social policies of this government:
These policies are political repression and are backed up with References. Polargeo are you saying that these references don't back up the above statement. Sir Floyd ( talk) 11:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Comment: The whole statement above is taken from: European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes". Here is the link: European Commission/Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 Page 197. Joze Dezman: COMMUNIST REPRESSION AND TRANSITIONAL JUSTICE IN SLOVENIA
Another Example on page 53:
4.2.2. fake trials
In June 1945 group trials began against actual and imaginary opponents of the Communist system, particularly against representatives of cooperatives, banks and the economy. The authorities carried out numerous trials (Božič, Rupnik/Rožman, Bitenc) to compromise representatives of political opposition and the Catholic Church. Following the Soviet example, in summer 1947 the Slovene Party staged a great Stalinist political trial, the so-called Nagode trial (named after the first accused, Črtomir Nagode) in which 15 people were accused of treason and spying for Anglo-Americans. In May 1947, the Slovene secret police, the UDBA, arrested 32 highly educated intellectuals. Among them were Črtomir Nagode, Ljubo Sirc, Leon Kavčnik, Boris Furlan, Zoran Hribar, Angela Vode, Metod Kumelj, Pavla Hočevar, Svatopluk Zupan, Bogdan Stare, Metod Pirc, Vid Lajovic, Franjo Sirc, Elizabeta Hribar.
More examples:
In the greater part of this paper, the author deals with individual repressive measures that Communist rule imposed in Slovenia in the period from the end of the war in 1945 until the beginning of the 1950s. In this period, the Communist authorities in Slovenia implemented all the forms of repression that were typical of states with Stalinist regimes. In Slovenia, it was a time of mass killings without court trials, and of concentration and labour camps. Property was confiscated, inhabitants were expelled from Slovenia/Yugoslavia and their residences, political and show trials were carried out, religion was repressed and the Catholic Church and its clergy were persecuted. At the beginning of the 1950s, Communist rule in Slovenia abandoned these forms of repression but was ready to reapply them if it felt threatened. Thus the regime set up political and show trials against certain more visible opponents later. In the case of an “emergency situation”, even the establishment of concentration camps was planned in Slovenia in 1968, where around 1,000 persons, of whom 10 % were women, would be interned for political reasons. Page 161
(a) The Communist repression in Slovenia reached its peak in the first months after the war ended in 1945 with the carrying out of mass killings without court trials of so-called “national enemies”. As already implied in the term “killings without a court trial”, these were killings carried out without any proceedings before a court and without establishing the guilt of the individual victims.
(b) This happened despite the fact that military courts existed in those times in Slovenia that could judge alleged perpetrators of war crimes and other criminal acts in accordance with the provisions of the Regulation on Military Courts of the Supreme Headquarters of the National Liberation Army and POJ (Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia – PDY) of 24 May 1944. According to this regulation, which was still applicable during those times, only military courts were competent to issue death sentences. By implementing killings without a court trial, the Slovenian Communist authorities also grossly violated their own regulations on criminal justice. page 63
(Note: Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia estimated that there are 100 000 victims in 581 mass graves)
Additional:
“Virtually every communist system extinct or surviving at one point or another had a supreme leader who was both extraordinarily powerful and surrounded by a bizarre cult, indeed worship. These cults although apparently an intrinsic part of communist dictatorships (at any rate at a stage in their evolution are largely forgotten today.” “Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Sung, Enver Hoxha, Ceascesu, Dimitrov, Ulbricht, Gottwald, Tito and others all were the object of such cults. The prototypical cult was that of Stalin which was duplicated elsewhere with minor variations.” Page 337. (I text bold Tito so it is easier to read)
Paul Hollander: Ph.D in Sociology. Princeton University, 1963, B.A. London School of Economics, 1959 Professor Emeritus of Sociology, University of Massachusetts, Amherst Center Associate, Davis Center
The article is about authoritarian rule & political repression in the former Yugoslavia. Authoritarian rule & political repression are government policies of a Totalitarian State. These are just some of the political, economic, and social policies that were part of the former Yugoslavia, backed up by sources. These policies are often referred to as Titoism (The term was coined during the Tito -Stalin split/check) There are other policies that are associated with Titoism, that are better know, but the article is about political repression in the former Yugoslavia. Sir Floyd ( talk) 23:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC) reply