- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep (nomination withdrawn). The ⬡ Bestagon T/ C 11:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
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- The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No demonstration of notability with all the cited sources being bookstores/online libraries. Was de-prodded with a claim of "more than a thousand sources", but that is untrue.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C 13:12, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Withdrawn by nominator - It has been demonstrated below that there are enough sources that discuss this book to meet GNG and NBOOK.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C
11:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- No, I didn't say that there were over a thousand sources. I said that one English translation had had over a thousand citations reported by Google Scholar, which you can see just by looking at the second entry you get by clicking on "scholar" in the deletion nomination. At least for me at the moment it shows 1188 citations for the translation by El-Helbawy, Siddiqui and Shukry.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
13:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Could you point us to good examples of reviews of the book or academic papers that give it more than a fleeting citation, please?
JMWt (
talk)
14:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- ISBN 9780190900366, published by the Oxford University press, has coverage of the book in its chapter about its author. ISBN 9781135788001, from Taylor & Francis, has coverage on many pages. Page 146 of ISBN 9781134704019, also from Taylor & Francis, includes in its coverage, "the book ... became one of the bestsellers of the century on Islamic religious law, and has been printed in 30 editions and published in 20 languages." ISBN 9781317112549 (Taylor & Francis) has coverage. I don't have time at the moment to look beyond the first few Google Books results (which I got by searching for the title but excluding the author, i.e. [1]) but this is clearly notable. Phil Bridger ( talk) 15:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I was wrong and will strike that part; I've just checked and it does indeed have a lot of citations. However, it fails the WP:SIGCOV test that demonstrates that the subject meets GNG. The ⬡ Bestagon T/ C 15:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Could you point us to good examples of reviews of the book or academic papers that give it more than a fleeting citation, please?
JMWt (
talk)
14:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature and Islam. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Delete- Having looked through JSTOR, Google Scholar, Google Books, The Wikipedia Library, and a couple of university library catalogues I have access to, I can't find any significant coverage of this book. It certainly has a decent number of citations, but nothing to suggest that it meets WP:NBOOK. The only thing that gets close to coverage is this review - but at only two sentences it can hardly be called significant. I may well have missed something (especially non-English and/or offline sources), so if anyone uncovers anything, please ping me. WJ94 ( talk) 14:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)- I'm not sure what Google Books search arguments you used, but the search that I linked above found quite a few sources from reputable publishers, certainly a lot better than a two-sentence review. You asked to be pinged, so
here goes.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
16:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for finding those Phil Bridger - based on what you've found plus the sources listed below, I'm happy to change ym !vote to keep. WJ94 ( talk) 18:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what Google Books search arguments you used, but the search that I linked above found quite a few sources from reputable publishers, certainly a lot better than a two-sentence review. You asked to be pinged, so
here goes.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
16:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to assist others, I've used ar.wiki to find references in Arabic. If you are interested to find references you probably need to search for the Arabic term الحلال والحرام في الإسلام and the ar.wiki page is here [2]. JMWt ( talk) 15:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per my comments above. Phil Bridger ( talk) 15:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: The book has a
more extensive article on French Wikipedia. This is likely in part due to the book being specifically
briefly banned in France in 1995, as verified by the
French government order, before the ban was repealed three or so weeks later
after the publisher apparently argued the French government back down. That there is this much backstory to the book's publication all but guarantees that there will be other news coverage out there and that the work will meet
WP:GNG. The work has also been
well referenced in Arabic news, including in obituaries of Yusuf al-Qaradawi. It is routinely cited as his most prominent and influential work.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
18:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- It is clearly taken quite seriously as a reference work, and is cited in various peer-reviewed works on Islamic precepts as applied to practical applications in industry. Just on the first few pages of searching for it on scholar I found a paper on Defining Halal Supply Chain Management and another on Halal tourism: Concepts, practises, challenges and future Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note - Although I'm the nominator, I now concur with the above !votes and would like the article to be kept. I'm not sure of the appropriate way to withdraw the nomination though - I can't close it as I am not uninvolved.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C
10:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- @ The Bestagon: It's very simple. The steps are here: Withdrawing a nomination. Iskandar323 ( talk) 10:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep (nomination withdrawn). The ⬡ Bestagon T/ C 11:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No demonstration of notability with all the cited sources being bookstores/online libraries. Was de-prodded with a claim of "more than a thousand sources", but that is untrue.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C 13:12, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Withdrawn by nominator - It has been demonstrated below that there are enough sources that discuss this book to meet GNG and NBOOK.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C
11:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- No, I didn't say that there were over a thousand sources. I said that one English translation had had over a thousand citations reported by Google Scholar, which you can see just by looking at the second entry you get by clicking on "scholar" in the deletion nomination. At least for me at the moment it shows 1188 citations for the translation by El-Helbawy, Siddiqui and Shukry.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
13:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Could you point us to good examples of reviews of the book or academic papers that give it more than a fleeting citation, please?
JMWt (
talk)
14:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- ISBN 9780190900366, published by the Oxford University press, has coverage of the book in its chapter about its author. ISBN 9781135788001, from Taylor & Francis, has coverage on many pages. Page 146 of ISBN 9781134704019, also from Taylor & Francis, includes in its coverage, "the book ... became one of the bestsellers of the century on Islamic religious law, and has been printed in 30 editions and published in 20 languages." ISBN 9781317112549 (Taylor & Francis) has coverage. I don't have time at the moment to look beyond the first few Google Books results (which I got by searching for the title but excluding the author, i.e. [1]) but this is clearly notable. Phil Bridger ( talk) 15:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I was wrong and will strike that part; I've just checked and it does indeed have a lot of citations. However, it fails the WP:SIGCOV test that demonstrates that the subject meets GNG. The ⬡ Bestagon T/ C 15:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Could you point us to good examples of reviews of the book or academic papers that give it more than a fleeting citation, please?
JMWt (
talk)
14:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature and Islam. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Delete- Having looked through JSTOR, Google Scholar, Google Books, The Wikipedia Library, and a couple of university library catalogues I have access to, I can't find any significant coverage of this book. It certainly has a decent number of citations, but nothing to suggest that it meets WP:NBOOK. The only thing that gets close to coverage is this review - but at only two sentences it can hardly be called significant. I may well have missed something (especially non-English and/or offline sources), so if anyone uncovers anything, please ping me. WJ94 ( talk) 14:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)- I'm not sure what Google Books search arguments you used, but the search that I linked above found quite a few sources from reputable publishers, certainly a lot better than a two-sentence review. You asked to be pinged, so
here goes.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
16:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for finding those Phil Bridger - based on what you've found plus the sources listed below, I'm happy to change ym !vote to keep. WJ94 ( talk) 18:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what Google Books search arguments you used, but the search that I linked above found quite a few sources from reputable publishers, certainly a lot better than a two-sentence review. You asked to be pinged, so
here goes.
Phil Bridger (
talk)
16:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to assist others, I've used ar.wiki to find references in Arabic. If you are interested to find references you probably need to search for the Arabic term الحلال والحرام في الإسلام and the ar.wiki page is here [2]. JMWt ( talk) 15:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per my comments above. Phil Bridger ( talk) 15:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: The book has a
more extensive article on French Wikipedia. This is likely in part due to the book being specifically
briefly banned in France in 1995, as verified by the
French government order, before the ban was repealed three or so weeks later
after the publisher apparently argued the French government back down. That there is this much backstory to the book's publication all but guarantees that there will be other news coverage out there and that the work will meet
WP:GNG. The work has also been
well referenced in Arabic news, including in obituaries of Yusuf al-Qaradawi. It is routinely cited as his most prominent and influential work.
Iskandar323 (
talk)
18:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- It is clearly taken quite seriously as a reference work, and is cited in various peer-reviewed works on Islamic precepts as applied to practical applications in industry. Just on the first few pages of searching for it on scholar I found a paper on Defining Halal Supply Chain Management and another on Halal tourism: Concepts, practises, challenges and future Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note - Although I'm the nominator, I now concur with the above !votes and would like the article to be kept. I'm not sure of the appropriate way to withdraw the nomination though - I can't close it as I am not uninvolved.
The ⬡ Bestagon
T/
C
10:45, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- @ The Bestagon: It's very simple. The steps are here: Withdrawing a nomination. Iskandar323 ( talk) 10:52, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.