- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to The Mountain Wreath. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
The Extermination of the Turks (1702)
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This article purports to cover an alleged 300-year-old massacre that is the subject of the Montenegrin prince-bishop and poet Peter II's epic poem The Mountain Wreath.
It is widely believed that tales of such a massacre are apocryphal, as several of the sources used in the article point out. The various folkloric sources can't even agree on whether the alleged event took place in the 1690s, 1702, 1704 or 1707 (see Srdja Pavlovic, Balkan Anschluss (2008), p. 8
I would normally have requested that this be turned into a redirect to The Mountain Wreath, but The Extermination of the Turks (1702) is not a WP:COMMONNAME, so there isn't much sense in that. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
I have also taken these points into consideration, which is why I chose to include many varying sources. There is a possibility the event never happened, but as you mention, it is maybe only poetical in its sense. However, the event has been referred to and used for various nationalistic rationals. I don't know, but I am open to suggestions. Thank you for this commentary. -- Albert Falk ( talk) 07:53, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- First of all, thank you for taking the time to write the article, regardless. Given the ambiguity, I think it would be best to summarize this in the Background section of The Mountain Wreath. Since the current title is descriptive and not a WP:COMMONNAME, a redirect wouldn't make much sense. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 16:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to The Mountain Wreath. This translates the term as "inquisition of the Turkicised", certainly converts to Islam, but not necessarily Albanians. It is not clear when this happened, but it may have been localised to one clan, rather than general, if it happened. The present title with its precise date cannot be kept, so that perhaps the usual; redirect should not be left, or it should be used for a dabpage. Having looked at both articles, I consider that there is some material to merge, probably making a new section out of a paragraph of the target's theme section. The event recorded purports to be only one generation before the epic poem was written, so that I would have thought this was probably recording an actual event. I will add that the Turks were brutal in their repression of rebellious minorities, so that the converse should not be surprising. It is easy to be critical of such events in our modern liberal peaceful world. Peterkingiron ( talk) 14:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- You make some good points, Peterkingiron. Would you agree with a proposal to merge and delete? Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
'Keep There are 20 sources currently cited in the article. Unless the article fails
WP:GNG editors should be asked to use the talk page to resolve their content disputes like everyone else.
Dartslilly (
talk)
01:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge per Srnec this name is not used by the cited sources. I don't see it used anywhere else either. The sourced content can be merged into the existing article per Peterkingiron which should be discussed on the article talk page if there is controversy. Dartslilly ( talk) 03:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dartslilly, this isn't a content dispute. The reason this article was nominated for deletion is because it is a WP:CFORK of The Mountain Wreath. Furthermore, just because an article has references from reliable sources doesn't exempt it from deletion or deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 20:18, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge per Peterkingiron. In any case, the title is certainly bad. The Turks were not exterminated in 1702 or any other year. Srnec ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
The title does not state that all Turks were exterminated. It is an English translation of the alleged event. -- Fa alk ( talk) 22:21, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Delete the page on The Mountain Wreath is the best place for material spun off by the epic poem. NotButtigieg ( talk) 15:22, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Merge content based RS sources into the Mountain Wreath article and keep the this pagename as a redirect for that article. Resnjari ( talk) 04:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to The Mountain Wreath. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
The Extermination of the Turks (1702)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- The Extermination of the Turks (1702) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article purports to cover an alleged 300-year-old massacre that is the subject of the Montenegrin prince-bishop and poet Peter II's epic poem The Mountain Wreath.
It is widely believed that tales of such a massacre are apocryphal, as several of the sources used in the article point out. The various folkloric sources can't even agree on whether the alleged event took place in the 1690s, 1702, 1704 or 1707 (see Srdja Pavlovic, Balkan Anschluss (2008), p. 8
I would normally have requested that this be turned into a redirect to The Mountain Wreath, but The Extermination of the Turks (1702) is not a WP:COMMONNAME, so there isn't much sense in that. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
I have also taken these points into consideration, which is why I chose to include many varying sources. There is a possibility the event never happened, but as you mention, it is maybe only poetical in its sense. However, the event has been referred to and used for various nationalistic rationals. I don't know, but I am open to suggestions. Thank you for this commentary. -- Albert Falk ( talk) 07:53, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
- First of all, thank you for taking the time to write the article, regardless. Given the ambiguity, I think it would be best to summarize this in the Background section of The Mountain Wreath. Since the current title is descriptive and not a WP:COMMONNAME, a redirect wouldn't make much sense. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 16:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to The Mountain Wreath. This translates the term as "inquisition of the Turkicised", certainly converts to Islam, but not necessarily Albanians. It is not clear when this happened, but it may have been localised to one clan, rather than general, if it happened. The present title with its precise date cannot be kept, so that perhaps the usual; redirect should not be left, or it should be used for a dabpage. Having looked at both articles, I consider that there is some material to merge, probably making a new section out of a paragraph of the target's theme section. The event recorded purports to be only one generation before the epic poem was written, so that I would have thought this was probably recording an actual event. I will add that the Turks were brutal in their repression of rebellious minorities, so that the converse should not be surprising. It is easy to be critical of such events in our modern liberal peaceful world. Peterkingiron ( talk) 14:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- You make some good points, Peterkingiron. Would you agree with a proposal to merge and delete? Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:43, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
'Keep There are 20 sources currently cited in the article. Unless the article fails
WP:GNG editors should be asked to use the talk page to resolve their content disputes like everyone else.
Dartslilly (
talk)
01:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge per Srnec this name is not used by the cited sources. I don't see it used anywhere else either. The sourced content can be merged into the existing article per Peterkingiron which should be discussed on the article talk page if there is controversy. Dartslilly ( talk) 03:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- Dartslilly, this isn't a content dispute. The reason this article was nominated for deletion is because it is a WP:CFORK of The Mountain Wreath. Furthermore, just because an article has references from reliable sources doesn't exempt it from deletion or deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 20:18, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Merge per Peterkingiron. In any case, the title is certainly bad. The Turks were not exterminated in 1702 or any other year. Srnec ( talk) 02:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
The title does not state that all Turks were exterminated. It is an English translation of the alleged event. -- Fa alk ( talk) 22:21, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- Delete the page on The Mountain Wreath is the best place for material spun off by the epic poem. NotButtigieg ( talk) 15:22, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
- Merge content based RS sources into the Mountain Wreath article and keep the this pagename as a redirect for that article. Resnjari ( talk) 04:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.