The result was no consensus. Jayjg (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC) reply
The ultra-POV title notwithstanding, this is precisely the kind of "grab victimhood before it goes!" battleground article we do not need on this encyclopedia. In addition, it does not use any non-Bulgarian language sources with the exception of the Carnegie Report, a primary source from 1913. The article appears to be named after some Bulgarian book from 1913, which in addition to being a really weird way to name an article, is some nothing more than an non- WP:NOTABLE nationalist POV piece. Athenean ( talk) 19:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC) reply
There are certainly problems with the article - the number of Bulgarian refugees is disputed and the article focuses too much on a book which might not be notable. The article should be reworked and renamed so that it's less about Miletich and his book and more about the events described in the article and the article must conform more to NPOV. However, these are not problems that should be settled with an deletion. The only real arguments for deletion - lack of notability - seem to be groundless. Kostja ( talk) 20:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Kostja as an example of your knowledge of the history of the area, your statement: "About the ethnic composition of the area, I clearly said that the major part of Edirne Vilayer was Eastern Thrace"...would you like to correct your self? Do you even know where Edirne is not to mention the boundaries of the Vilayet in 1912? Amasing discussions we are having, goes to show the level of basic credibility of the article for deletion. Hittit ( talk) 14:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Treaty of Neuilly??? As an analogy, today Eastern Thrace??? Concentrate only on the events of 1913 and movement of boundaries at that time. To help you here is a map of the Bulgarian occupation during the first Balkan War and then again what Bulgaria retained after the Second Balkan War. Focus on the area of Thrace and how the Vilayet of Edirne looked after the First and Second Balkan Wars. Get your years and treaties right.¨ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg Hittit ( talk) 15:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC) reply
International 3rd party sources on the refugees of the that time are clear, after the 2nd Balkan War just over 200 000 refugees arrived to Bulgaria from ALL directions, Macedonia, Turkey and Romania in addition to agreed population exchanges with Turkey and also with Greece. Thrace was inhabited by a multitude of ethnic groups mainly Greeks, Turks, Pomaks and in certain villages Bulgarians. During the First Balkan War Bulgaria (the agressor)occupied most of Thrace and after the second War almoust half of the territory fell under Bulgarian control. It was in fact the Muslims population that of Turkish Rumelia (Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace )who were subjected to Destructions after all only Eastern Thrace remained of their territories in Europe. Ref. Population exchange in Greek Macedonia: the rural settlement of refugees, Elisabeth Kontogiorgi: pp.38-39 gives a good picture of the situation once Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace fell under the Balkan Christian armies. You cannot have a POV article called “The Destruction of Thracian Bulgarians in 1913”, in light of historical facts you need to have an article called the Destruction of the Population of Ottoman Rumelia to reflect the plight of all ethnic groups who were either killed or expelled from their home under the feet of advancing armies. The international spread of ethnic conflict: fear, diffusion, and escalation By David A. Lake, Donald S. Rothchild p.166, Refugees in the age of total war pp.17, Population exchange in Greek Macedonia: the rural settlement of refugees, Elisabeth Kontogiorgi p.39 and bunch of others clearly indicate that only some 47 000 Bulgarians left Thrace in exchange of 48 000 Muslims from Bulgarian occupied territories. Most sources show that it was in fact Muslims and Greeks who more mostly subjected to expulsions in Thrace. Hittit ( talk) 07:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Kostja there are no mistakes, over 200000 Bulgarian refugees arrived in Bulgaria from 3 different neighbouring countries. You simply have no credible sources to indicated otherwise. Consult the link to see that Bulgarian population in Western Thrace in 1910 is put only at 30 000, there you can also get a picture of the refugee flows during the time in question: http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS056.pdf Also consult the article “The League of Nations and the Refugee Problem” by LW Holborn, where the direct quote is as follows: “Bulgaria had received about 220000 Bulgarians from adjacent countries since 1913”. I see no point for you to distort information, which is easily verifiable. Admit the article is POV and should either reflect historical facts or the article needs to go! Hittit ( talk) 14:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
It is not disputed, the article is there so is the source. If you want to establish NPVO start with the name of the article. All sources indicate refugee waves in all directions so perhaps you can focus on Balkan War refugees or something of that kind. If there were Bulgarian refugees there were much more Greek and Turkish so you cannot have the destruction of one but not the other. Not to mention there are no established numbers of Bulgarian presence in Eastern Thrace to start with. Western Thrace is relevent since if there were 30 000 there they could not have been much more in Eastern Thrace either. A Greek account of the population distribution of the Edirne Vilayet: "There were isolated clusters of Bulgarian villages in the remaining geographical regions of the vilayet of Adrianople. However, at the beginning of the twentieth century, of the total 1,030,000 inhabitants there, some 510,000 were Turks, 365,000 Greeks, 110,000 Bulgars and 45,000 Jews and Armenians." http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Istoria/thrace_english/Thracee7_7.htm the figures would sound logic, 30 000 Bulgars in Western Thrace and the rest scattered in Eastern Thrace, which would be inline with the population exchange figures and the fact that with these small numbers Bulgarian presence in Thrace disappared. Hittit ( talk) 16:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Which sources have you cited? I have not seen a single one to support your claim. The figures total 1,030,000 inhabitants there, some 510,000 were Turks, 365,000 Greeks, 110,000 Bulgars and 45,000 Jews and Armenians were used by Venizelos to justifiy acquisition of Thrace after WWI, however in his book Peaceless Europe, Francesco S. Nitti says that in truth Turkish numbers were even much more superior, indicating Greece bias but in fact even greater Turkish numbers. Hittit ( talk) 16:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Hmmm the sources behind these remarkabe figures: Aram Andoyan and Zavren Biberyan? the original book was in Armenian "Badgerazart Intartzag Badmutyun Balkanyan Baderazmin" are you kidding me? Hittit ( talk) 17:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Balkan Harbi Tarihi was the Turkish translation, it does say that in your source as well. Original language was Armenian, writer is Aram Andonyan. Here you can buy the book. http://www.simurg.com.tr/Details.aspx?code=52145&name=Balkan Harbi Tarihi Hittit ( talk) 17:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Aram Andonian is one of the main anti-Turkish sources out there...famous for the forgery of the so called "Andonian Telegrams" or "Talat Pasha Telegrams" triying to make a case of Armenian Genocide...not shure this guy or his documents or his figures are very neutral in any sence. Hittit ( talk) 18:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
The result was no consensus. Jayjg (talk) 17:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC) reply
The ultra-POV title notwithstanding, this is precisely the kind of "grab victimhood before it goes!" battleground article we do not need on this encyclopedia. In addition, it does not use any non-Bulgarian language sources with the exception of the Carnegie Report, a primary source from 1913. The article appears to be named after some Bulgarian book from 1913, which in addition to being a really weird way to name an article, is some nothing more than an non- WP:NOTABLE nationalist POV piece. Athenean ( talk) 19:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC) reply
There are certainly problems with the article - the number of Bulgarian refugees is disputed and the article focuses too much on a book which might not be notable. The article should be reworked and renamed so that it's less about Miletich and his book and more about the events described in the article and the article must conform more to NPOV. However, these are not problems that should be settled with an deletion. The only real arguments for deletion - lack of notability - seem to be groundless. Kostja ( talk) 20:50, 2 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Kostja as an example of your knowledge of the history of the area, your statement: "About the ethnic composition of the area, I clearly said that the major part of Edirne Vilayer was Eastern Thrace"...would you like to correct your self? Do you even know where Edirne is not to mention the boundaries of the Vilayet in 1912? Amasing discussions we are having, goes to show the level of basic credibility of the article for deletion. Hittit ( talk) 14:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Treaty of Neuilly??? As an analogy, today Eastern Thrace??? Concentrate only on the events of 1913 and movement of boundaries at that time. To help you here is a map of the Bulgarian occupation during the first Balkan War and then again what Bulgaria retained after the Second Balkan War. Focus on the area of Thrace and how the Vilayet of Edirne looked after the First and Second Balkan Wars. Get your years and treaties right.¨ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Balkan_Wars_Boundaries.jpg Hittit ( talk) 15:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC) reply
International 3rd party sources on the refugees of the that time are clear, after the 2nd Balkan War just over 200 000 refugees arrived to Bulgaria from ALL directions, Macedonia, Turkey and Romania in addition to agreed population exchanges with Turkey and also with Greece. Thrace was inhabited by a multitude of ethnic groups mainly Greeks, Turks, Pomaks and in certain villages Bulgarians. During the First Balkan War Bulgaria (the agressor)occupied most of Thrace and after the second War almoust half of the territory fell under Bulgarian control. It was in fact the Muslims population that of Turkish Rumelia (Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace )who were subjected to Destructions after all only Eastern Thrace remained of their territories in Europe. Ref. Population exchange in Greek Macedonia: the rural settlement of refugees, Elisabeth Kontogiorgi: pp.38-39 gives a good picture of the situation once Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace fell under the Balkan Christian armies. You cannot have a POV article called “The Destruction of Thracian Bulgarians in 1913”, in light of historical facts you need to have an article called the Destruction of the Population of Ottoman Rumelia to reflect the plight of all ethnic groups who were either killed or expelled from their home under the feet of advancing armies. The international spread of ethnic conflict: fear, diffusion, and escalation By David A. Lake, Donald S. Rothchild p.166, Refugees in the age of total war pp.17, Population exchange in Greek Macedonia: the rural settlement of refugees, Elisabeth Kontogiorgi p.39 and bunch of others clearly indicate that only some 47 000 Bulgarians left Thrace in exchange of 48 000 Muslims from Bulgarian occupied territories. Most sources show that it was in fact Muslims and Greeks who more mostly subjected to expulsions in Thrace. Hittit ( talk) 07:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Kostja there are no mistakes, over 200000 Bulgarian refugees arrived in Bulgaria from 3 different neighbouring countries. You simply have no credible sources to indicated otherwise. Consult the link to see that Bulgarian population in Western Thrace in 1910 is put only at 30 000, there you can also get a picture of the refugee flows during the time in question: http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS056.pdf Also consult the article “The League of Nations and the Refugee Problem” by LW Holborn, where the direct quote is as follows: “Bulgaria had received about 220000 Bulgarians from adjacent countries since 1913”. I see no point for you to distort information, which is easily verifiable. Admit the article is POV and should either reflect historical facts or the article needs to go! Hittit ( talk) 14:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
It is not disputed, the article is there so is the source. If you want to establish NPVO start with the name of the article. All sources indicate refugee waves in all directions so perhaps you can focus on Balkan War refugees or something of that kind. If there were Bulgarian refugees there were much more Greek and Turkish so you cannot have the destruction of one but not the other. Not to mention there are no established numbers of Bulgarian presence in Eastern Thrace to start with. Western Thrace is relevent since if there were 30 000 there they could not have been much more in Eastern Thrace either. A Greek account of the population distribution of the Edirne Vilayet: "There were isolated clusters of Bulgarian villages in the remaining geographical regions of the vilayet of Adrianople. However, at the beginning of the twentieth century, of the total 1,030,000 inhabitants there, some 510,000 were Turks, 365,000 Greeks, 110,000 Bulgars and 45,000 Jews and Armenians." http://alex.eled.duth.gr/Istoria/thrace_english/Thracee7_7.htm the figures would sound logic, 30 000 Bulgars in Western Thrace and the rest scattered in Eastern Thrace, which would be inline with the population exchange figures and the fact that with these small numbers Bulgarian presence in Thrace disappared. Hittit ( talk) 16:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Which sources have you cited? I have not seen a single one to support your claim. The figures total 1,030,000 inhabitants there, some 510,000 were Turks, 365,000 Greeks, 110,000 Bulgars and 45,000 Jews and Armenians were used by Venizelos to justifiy acquisition of Thrace after WWI, however in his book Peaceless Europe, Francesco S. Nitti says that in truth Turkish numbers were even much more superior, indicating Greece bias but in fact even greater Turkish numbers. Hittit ( talk) 16:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Hmmm the sources behind these remarkabe figures: Aram Andoyan and Zavren Biberyan? the original book was in Armenian "Badgerazart Intartzag Badmutyun Balkanyan Baderazmin" are you kidding me? Hittit ( talk) 17:13, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Balkan Harbi Tarihi was the Turkish translation, it does say that in your source as well. Original language was Armenian, writer is Aram Andonyan. Here you can buy the book. http://www.simurg.com.tr/Details.aspx?code=52145&name=Balkan Harbi Tarihi Hittit ( talk) 17:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply
Aram Andonian is one of the main anti-Turkish sources out there...famous for the forgery of the so called "Andonian Telegrams" or "Talat Pasha Telegrams" triying to make a case of Armenian Genocide...not shure this guy or his documents or his figures are very neutral in any sence. Hittit ( talk) 18:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC) reply