The result was delete. In present form this is an apparent first time integration of two words to support material that is original research. The only sources cited, as noted, use the words in conjunction to mean something unrelated to the subject of the article. As such, they are irrelevant to the article at issue, which means the article is entirely unverified. The desire to keep on the basis that other meanings exist requires us to consider nonexistent material; that is beyond the scope of this debate. If that inchoate article is written it can and should be considered on its own merits.-- Fuhghettaboutit 22:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Article creator invented a fake scientific name. The article claims that the term species integration is used by the scientific community to describe the merging of two species into one breeding species. It then proceeds to list two references where the words 'species integration' appear. Upon closer inspection, both articles use the word integration to mean different things. In one, it meant interrelationships between groups of genes that produce some ornamental phenotype. In another it meant the forces which holds a species together, protecting it from speciation. I have since removed these two references. You can see them in the Talk:Species integration page. Fred Hsu 23:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC) reply
The article nominated for deletion was created by user User:Ryoung122, after his article on another name he invented was deleted via the same Afd process. That article, most ancient common ancestor, dealt with similar human species integration theme. See the discussion page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Most ancient common ancestor Fred Hsu 23:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. I find it disturbing that in a world that is supposed to be fair, rational, and open-minded, such attempts are being made to stamp out any alternative viewpoints. The deletion of the previous article is simply a prior example of the same bias. Both concepts can be found from the multiregional hypothesis page. However, to argue that only one article is needed is simply biased. 74.237.28.5 06:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. It should be noted that, at least, some ideas here are close to the 'point' of the article...past 'racial' theories have argued that the various 'races' of 'man' were each individual species. In that case, the race-theorists may have confused 'interspecific hybridization' for what they considered to be 'intergeneric hybridization'.
However, the point of the article was not exactly that. If one is to argue that homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis...two separate species within the same genera...hybridized to form just one species, this is an example of 'species integration.' Even if the idea is false, researchers have been debating the issue for decades, and thus an explanation of even a 'discredited' idea is warranted. For example:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html
http://www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html
In fact, we find 54,000+ articles for the concept:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 54,300 for humans+neanderthals+interbred. (0.11 seconds)
Human-Neanderthal Hybrid?"They intermixed, interbred and produced offspring." ... remains and living humans indicated that Neanderthals did not interbreed with the modern humans. ... cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
Humans and Neanderthals Might Have Interbred | LiveScienceAnthropologists find evidence that humans and Neanderthals interbred as humans spread across Europe. www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html - 35k - Aug 4, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
News in Science - Neanderthals & modern humans may have interbred ...New evidence suggests that Neanderthals and modern humans were not distinct species as previously thought but evolved together and probably interbred. www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s272265.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
Neandertals, Modern Humans Interbred, Bone Study SuggestsAncient bones from a cave in Romania add fuel to the theory that modern humans absorbed Neandertals through interbreeding instead of out-competing them to ... news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061030-neanderthals.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
Neandertals, Modern Humans May Have Interbred, Skull Study SuggestsThe new skull find also shows that humans continued to evolve after reaching Europe some 40000 years ago. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070116-neanderthals.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
Humans and Neanderthals interbred | COSMOS magazineSYDNEY: Modern humans contain a little bit of Neanderthal, according to a new theory, because the two interbred and became one species. ... www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/814 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
Skull suggests humans, Neanderthals interbred-Health/Science-The ...WASHINGTON: A skull found in a cave in Romania includes features of both modern humans and Neanderthals, possibly suggesting that the two may have interbred ... timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1230744.cms - 47k - Cached - Similar pages
Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred - Health and ...Doctor-produced health and medical information written for you to make informed decisions about your health concerns. www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=77210 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages
Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred HealthDay - Find ...Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred from HealthDay in Health provided by LookSmart Find Articles. findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmhea/is_200610/ai_n16917492 - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
GeneticArchaeology.com - Human Neanderthal Interbreeding (11/8/2006)Neanderthals died out about 35000 years ago for some unknown reason. Some scientists have suggested that they interbred with humans, and "bred" themselves ... www.geneticarchaeology.com/Research/Human_Neanderthal_interbreeding.asp - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Thus, we can conclude:
--such an idea is not a hoax --such an idea has been well-discussed in the media and scientific literature, even if not the 'most popular' version --such an idea of 'species integration' is NOT 'interspecific hybrid.'
Ok, isn't the article on 'hybrid' enough?
In regards to the first argument, there is a different 'angle' here. Suppose two similar species of plants 'hybridized' to create a THIRD species...but the first two original species still existed. That isn't 'integration.' However, if the two species A and B 'hybridized' to create species AB, and then A became extinct, and B and AB integrated into ABB, then there is now only one species...an integration of two. Further, the 'hybrid' article deals with mostly a scientific phenomenon on a 'current event' timescale...species integration argues for a viewpoint from an evolutionary timescale 74.237.28.5 06:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. People are so quick to fling around insults like 'hoax' and 'nonsense'...only at length will they realize that they know less than they think about things. Until very recently scientists believed that parthenogenesis in higher-order animals was impossible...until the 'virgin shark' gave birth. It turns out those who thought they knew it all were, in fact, those were were being both small-minded and, in a word, WRONG.
Likewise, I could explain why the need for an article on most ancient common ancestor...however it was deleted when I was away, and so there was no chance for discussion.
I note that the article on 'hybrids' admits that some plant species don't just 'hybridize' to form sterile plants, but can become a new combined species. It has been theorized to have taken place in birds and even between humans and neanderthals. Likewise, the multiregional hypothesis argued that initial 'founder' populations of homo erectus led to humans evolving into separate species (i.e. Peking Man became "Chinese" people). EVEN IF AN IDEA IS WRONG, I BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT FOR READERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT SUCH IDEAS HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE. For example, Lemarck argued that giraffes 'evolved' longer necks by having to 'stretch' to reach the leaves. Even though this idea turned out to be basically incorrect, it is still important from an historical standpoint to note past, failed ideas...call it 'historical science.' To not allow room for such articles is basically akin to saying 'no articles on dinosaurs' because 'they don't exist.' 74.237.28.5 07:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Robert,
Your writing style makes your comments extremely hard for people to follow, and it does not help you. Please make your comments more concise. You should indent them properly to show conversation flow. When you quote text, please use proper tags to indent them. Many people have mention this to you in your User talk:Ryoung122 page. You will not gain any sympathy towards your endeavor among wikipedians by not following rules. I moved and formatted your comments to make this page more readable. It is tedious work and I do not enjoy it. Please make your comment more accessible so we can have a proper discussion on this page. Fred Hsu 14:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
We are debating your use of the term species integration here. We are not debating whether modern human and Neanderthals interbred. I am sure there could be articles to accommodate the latter. But it is not on this article you created with a name you invented. You added the two references back to the article, and I promptly removed them again. They are not lost; they are still on the talk page where they belong. Thanks. Fred Hsu 14:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Greetings Fred,
Perhaps a sub-section could be added to the 'hybrid' article or this could be renamed. Would that make you happy? Or, the entire article could be 'rewritten' to conform more closely to the 'use of the word phrase' from the articles published. I didn't invent the term; I ran a Google search for articles on the idea and saw it being used. What is more important, process or getting this right? "Winning" a vote or ensuring that the next generation of readers have a fuller, more open understanding of the evolutionary process? Note in this article, some 30+ years of 'mainstream-establishment' thinking has been overturned:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1245222007
The concept exists and is notable; what seems to be debated is the 'name' for it. Note this has more to do than simply human evolution; it impacts all evolution. Note that Darwin observed how birds, breeding in isolation in the Galapagos and descended from the same species, eventually evolved over time into slighty-different, separate species...caused by isolation. If the primary cause of the diffentiation was a differential environment, then it stands to reason that a reverse scenario could also happen. These species are genetically similar enough that it is possible that a few simple genetic modifications toward analagous structures can lead to a 'species (re-)integration.' No one is proposing that humans and whales will soon become the same species. It should be noted that the article which allegedly discussed how species 'hold together' seems to be saying more than that: it identifies a force which runs counter to the tendency of species to diverge into separate species. As such, a concept such as this is important, just as 'anti-matter' is important when discussing 'matter.' The name need not be the issue here. In any case, the concept is discussed (but not at length) in the 'hybrid' article (and is barely mentioned). Who added the concept there? It certainly wasn't me. I don't know who put that there or what the sourcing is. If anything, I have identified a 'hole' in Wikipedia that needs to be filled. Whether that hole is filled by a new article or a single paragraph in another article is irrelevant; what is relevant is that Wikipedians reading about various (unproven) hypotheses can follow Wikilinks to explanations. Given that the vast majority of initial voters for deletion didn't even know that such a process was possible suggests a need for such an article. Whether this article survives or not, a fuller and more complete understanding of the evolutionary process (and that is it not as cut-and-dried as many think) is what I am really attempting to accomplish with this and other articles. I have created over 50 articles on Wikipedia and if two out of 55 or so are deleted, so be it.
Please note that I am a 'fan' of Richard Dawkins and we should be on the same page. I realize you are an expert on the subject, but you seem to be zealously guarding your turf and not allowing room for 'niche' articles that would be of interest to those who are interested in understanding evolution.
Have a nice day. Ryoung122 06:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. In present form this is an apparent first time integration of two words to support material that is original research. The only sources cited, as noted, use the words in conjunction to mean something unrelated to the subject of the article. As such, they are irrelevant to the article at issue, which means the article is entirely unverified. The desire to keep on the basis that other meanings exist requires us to consider nonexistent material; that is beyond the scope of this debate. If that inchoate article is written it can and should be considered on its own merits.-- Fuhghettaboutit 22:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Article creator invented a fake scientific name. The article claims that the term species integration is used by the scientific community to describe the merging of two species into one breeding species. It then proceeds to list two references where the words 'species integration' appear. Upon closer inspection, both articles use the word integration to mean different things. In one, it meant interrelationships between groups of genes that produce some ornamental phenotype. In another it meant the forces which holds a species together, protecting it from speciation. I have since removed these two references. You can see them in the Talk:Species integration page. Fred Hsu 23:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC) reply
The article nominated for deletion was created by user User:Ryoung122, after his article on another name he invented was deleted via the same Afd process. That article, most ancient common ancestor, dealt with similar human species integration theme. See the discussion page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Most ancient common ancestor Fred Hsu 23:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. I find it disturbing that in a world that is supposed to be fair, rational, and open-minded, such attempts are being made to stamp out any alternative viewpoints. The deletion of the previous article is simply a prior example of the same bias. Both concepts can be found from the multiregional hypothesis page. However, to argue that only one article is needed is simply biased. 74.237.28.5 06:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. It should be noted that, at least, some ideas here are close to the 'point' of the article...past 'racial' theories have argued that the various 'races' of 'man' were each individual species. In that case, the race-theorists may have confused 'interspecific hybridization' for what they considered to be 'intergeneric hybridization'.
However, the point of the article was not exactly that. If one is to argue that homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis...two separate species within the same genera...hybridized to form just one species, this is an example of 'species integration.' Even if the idea is false, researchers have been debating the issue for decades, and thus an explanation of even a 'discredited' idea is warranted. For example:
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html
http://www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html
In fact, we find 54,000+ articles for the concept:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 54,300 for humans+neanderthals+interbred. (0.11 seconds)
Human-Neanderthal Hybrid?"They intermixed, interbred and produced offspring." ... remains and living humans indicated that Neanderthals did not interbreed with the modern humans. ... cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
Humans and Neanderthals Might Have Interbred | LiveScienceAnthropologists find evidence that humans and Neanderthals interbred as humans spread across Europe. www.livescience.com/health/061030_neanderthal_hybrid.html - 35k - Aug 4, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
News in Science - Neanderthals & modern humans may have interbred ...New evidence suggests that Neanderthals and modern humans were not distinct species as previously thought but evolved together and probably interbred. www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s272265.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
Neandertals, Modern Humans Interbred, Bone Study SuggestsAncient bones from a cave in Romania add fuel to the theory that modern humans absorbed Neandertals through interbreeding instead of out-competing them to ... news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061030-neanderthals.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
Neandertals, Modern Humans May Have Interbred, Skull Study SuggestsThe new skull find also shows that humans continued to evolve after reaching Europe some 40000 years ago. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/01/070116-neanderthals.html - 33k - Cached - Similar pages
Humans and Neanderthals interbred | COSMOS magazineSYDNEY: Modern humans contain a little bit of Neanderthal, according to a new theory, because the two interbred and became one species. ... www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/814 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
Skull suggests humans, Neanderthals interbred-Health/Science-The ...WASHINGTON: A skull found in a cave in Romania includes features of both modern humans and Neanderthals, possibly suggesting that the two may have interbred ... timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1230744.cms - 47k - Cached - Similar pages
Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred - Health and ...Doctor-produced health and medical information written for you to make informed decisions about your health concerns. www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=77210 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages
Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred HealthDay - Find ...Modern Humans, Neanderthals May Have Interbred from HealthDay in Health provided by LookSmart Find Articles. findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmhea/is_200610/ai_n16917492 - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
GeneticArchaeology.com - Human Neanderthal Interbreeding (11/8/2006)Neanderthals died out about 35000 years ago for some unknown reason. Some scientists have suggested that they interbred with humans, and "bred" themselves ... www.geneticarchaeology.com/Research/Human_Neanderthal_interbreeding.asp - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
Thus, we can conclude:
--such an idea is not a hoax --such an idea has been well-discussed in the media and scientific literature, even if not the 'most popular' version --such an idea of 'species integration' is NOT 'interspecific hybrid.'
Ok, isn't the article on 'hybrid' enough?
In regards to the first argument, there is a different 'angle' here. Suppose two similar species of plants 'hybridized' to create a THIRD species...but the first two original species still existed. That isn't 'integration.' However, if the two species A and B 'hybridized' to create species AB, and then A became extinct, and B and AB integrated into ABB, then there is now only one species...an integration of two. Further, the 'hybrid' article deals with mostly a scientific phenomenon on a 'current event' timescale...species integration argues for a viewpoint from an evolutionary timescale 74.237.28.5 06:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Comment. People are so quick to fling around insults like 'hoax' and 'nonsense'...only at length will they realize that they know less than they think about things. Until very recently scientists believed that parthenogenesis in higher-order animals was impossible...until the 'virgin shark' gave birth. It turns out those who thought they knew it all were, in fact, those were were being both small-minded and, in a word, WRONG.
Likewise, I could explain why the need for an article on most ancient common ancestor...however it was deleted when I was away, and so there was no chance for discussion.
I note that the article on 'hybrids' admits that some plant species don't just 'hybridize' to form sterile plants, but can become a new combined species. It has been theorized to have taken place in birds and even between humans and neanderthals. Likewise, the multiregional hypothesis argued that initial 'founder' populations of homo erectus led to humans evolving into separate species (i.e. Peking Man became "Chinese" people). EVEN IF AN IDEA IS WRONG, I BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT FOR READERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT SUCH IDEAS HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE. For example, Lemarck argued that giraffes 'evolved' longer necks by having to 'stretch' to reach the leaves. Even though this idea turned out to be basically incorrect, it is still important from an historical standpoint to note past, failed ideas...call it 'historical science.' To not allow room for such articles is basically akin to saying 'no articles on dinosaurs' because 'they don't exist.' 74.237.28.5 07:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Robert,
Your writing style makes your comments extremely hard for people to follow, and it does not help you. Please make your comments more concise. You should indent them properly to show conversation flow. When you quote text, please use proper tags to indent them. Many people have mention this to you in your User talk:Ryoung122 page. You will not gain any sympathy towards your endeavor among wikipedians by not following rules. I moved and formatted your comments to make this page more readable. It is tedious work and I do not enjoy it. Please make your comment more accessible so we can have a proper discussion on this page. Fred Hsu 14:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
We are debating your use of the term species integration here. We are not debating whether modern human and Neanderthals interbred. I am sure there could be articles to accommodate the latter. But it is not on this article you created with a name you invented. You added the two references back to the article, and I promptly removed them again. They are not lost; they are still on the talk page where they belong. Thanks. Fred Hsu 14:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC) reply
Greetings Fred,
Perhaps a sub-section could be added to the 'hybrid' article or this could be renamed. Would that make you happy? Or, the entire article could be 'rewritten' to conform more closely to the 'use of the word phrase' from the articles published. I didn't invent the term; I ran a Google search for articles on the idea and saw it being used. What is more important, process or getting this right? "Winning" a vote or ensuring that the next generation of readers have a fuller, more open understanding of the evolutionary process? Note in this article, some 30+ years of 'mainstream-establishment' thinking has been overturned:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1245222007
The concept exists and is notable; what seems to be debated is the 'name' for it. Note this has more to do than simply human evolution; it impacts all evolution. Note that Darwin observed how birds, breeding in isolation in the Galapagos and descended from the same species, eventually evolved over time into slighty-different, separate species...caused by isolation. If the primary cause of the diffentiation was a differential environment, then it stands to reason that a reverse scenario could also happen. These species are genetically similar enough that it is possible that a few simple genetic modifications toward analagous structures can lead to a 'species (re-)integration.' No one is proposing that humans and whales will soon become the same species. It should be noted that the article which allegedly discussed how species 'hold together' seems to be saying more than that: it identifies a force which runs counter to the tendency of species to diverge into separate species. As such, a concept such as this is important, just as 'anti-matter' is important when discussing 'matter.' The name need not be the issue here. In any case, the concept is discussed (but not at length) in the 'hybrid' article (and is barely mentioned). Who added the concept there? It certainly wasn't me. I don't know who put that there or what the sourcing is. If anything, I have identified a 'hole' in Wikipedia that needs to be filled. Whether that hole is filled by a new article or a single paragraph in another article is irrelevant; what is relevant is that Wikipedians reading about various (unproven) hypotheses can follow Wikilinks to explanations. Given that the vast majority of initial voters for deletion didn't even know that such a process was possible suggests a need for such an article. Whether this article survives or not, a fuller and more complete understanding of the evolutionary process (and that is it not as cut-and-dried as many think) is what I am really attempting to accomplish with this and other articles. I have created over 50 articles on Wikipedia and if two out of 55 or so are deleted, so be it.
Please note that I am a 'fan' of Richard Dawkins and we should be on the same page. I realize you are an expert on the subject, but you seem to be zealously guarding your turf and not allowing room for 'niche' articles that would be of interest to those who are interested in understanding evolution.
Have a nice day. Ryoung122 06:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC) reply