- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Disregarding AriaTess, who has been blocked for socking. Sandstein 14:31, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Shindenkai
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This article ostensibly concerns a branch of the martial arts. However, despite multiple attempts at searching, I have been unable to find reliable sources that could be used to support the article and demonstrate notability. The only source that I have found that has anything beyond a passing reference is this one which is an interview with the creator of the alleged martial arts style and offers only some high level details. But aside from that, it is very difficult to even confirm that this martial arts style even actually exists beyond the say-so of one or two individuals. And I certainly have not been able to find significant coverage that could demonstrate that WP:GNG is met.
I originally PROD'd this article as part of NPP but the PROD was contested. So I am now bringing this to AFD. If there are sufficient reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability, I will happily withdraw this nomination. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 06:13, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 06:13, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, This article may remain on Wikipedia for the following reasons:
- Included WP:NWSRC as Iribnews.com, Mehr News Agency, ILNA and Fars News Agency.
- Passed by Wikiproject martial arts guidelines.
- Created and approved by Persian Wikipedia
Regards. AriaTess ( talk) 04:19, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding #1, which articles on those websites demonstrates significant coverage in your opinion? I raised this on your talk page but we couldn't seem to understand each other there.
- Regarding #2, how does this pass the martial arts guidelines? You linked to this before and it is not at all clear to me what you're referring to or how it meets some criteria.
- Regarding #3, the article on Persian Wikipedia was created by the same person that created the article here and at roughly the same time. The creator of both articles was also later banned as an SPA. So I am not sure what weight, if any, we should accord the fact that Persian Wikipedia also has an article about this. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 05:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
FYI to other editors, AriaTess was apparently just blocked as a suspected sockpuppet of the creator of this article. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 01:54, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete None of the reasons given by AriaTess actually show WP notability. Significant coverage by major media would show notability but not passing mentions, the karate task force doesn't have notability criteria listed, and whether or not there's an article in another language's WP is irrelevant. I looked at the article's references and was surprised to see how many of them don't even mention Shindenkai. Others are passing mentions in articles or in lists of organizations. None of this is sufficient to show WP notability. Papaursa ( talk) 21:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗
plicit 11:19, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Not enough actual sources about it to support notability. LizardJr8 ( talk) 06:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: Lean towards delete and probably relegate it to a minor style mention somewhere, rather than its own page. Kinda like how Ademir da Costa's Seiwakai is in his entry, or how Northern Praying Mantis lists the Seven Star Praying Mantis Boxing style as a sub-type of aforementioned art. It is more of less a Kyokushin derivative by sorta respected Iranian FC Karateka. Though lot of the edits surrounding this appear to be vanity edits. TrickShotFinn ( talk) 19:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughs about merge and delete as presented by
User:TrickShotFinn?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Missvain (
talk) 19:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- So, as the nominator, my concern with merging is that we really don't have any reliable sources to back up the content that would be merged. It's all fine and well to say "Ah, let's merge as an alternative to deletion." But here, what verifiable content would be merged?
DocFreeman24 (
talk) 21:39, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, sorry. I failed read your arguments through. This page is quite messy and failed to process what was what. While Hamid Soltani seems relatively respected Kyokushin coach, I profess that this is not really "notable-notable" enough for Wikipedia. Also - like DocFreeman said - lot of this stuff seem to be a vanity edits from a single editor; User:MMA Kid - which turns out to be a sock-puppet of User:JRM2018. Unless somebody else can prove anything tangle, I then I'm afraid that Shindekai will get the nuke without mention of it being a Kyokushin sub-type anywhere and live as a small organization mention somewhere. Shindekai has yet to prove it's mettle to justify a wikipedia entry. -- TrickShotFinn ( talk) 08:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep: The references covered WP:NWSRC#Asia#Iran Afsane1369 ( talk) 15:14, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if the references are reliable if the coverage is not significant. Passing mentions and lists are not considered significant coverage. Can you point out which reliable references you consider to have significant coverage?
Papaursa (
talk) 20:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Based on
WP:News_sources/Asia#Iran:
Mehr News Agency [
1],
Iribnews.com [
2].
Afsane1369 (
talk) 07:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- The first one is a list of government approved martial arts styles, which is not significant coverage of any of them. The second is an interview with the style's founder. Interviews are not considered significant independent coverage. In addition, the style is only mentioned in passing: "Soltani, founder of ...", so that's another indication of it not being significant coverage. So you have given zero examples of this article meeting WP:GNG. Papaursa ( talk) 13:23, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Based on
WP:News_sources/Asia#Iran:
Mehr News Agency [
1],
Iribnews.com [
2].
Afsane1369 (
talk) 07:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if the references are reliable if the coverage is not significant. Passing mentions and lists are not considered significant coverage. Can you point out which reliable references you consider to have significant coverage?
Papaursa (
talk) 20:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom - discussion has not demonstrated any substantial coverage, and there's a likelihood the article was created promotionally. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:10, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, lacks depth of coverage. Nothing to be missed. Hyperbolick ( talk) 08:32, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Disregarding AriaTess, who has been blocked for socking. Sandstein 14:31, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Shindenkai
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Shindenkai ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This article ostensibly concerns a branch of the martial arts. However, despite multiple attempts at searching, I have been unable to find reliable sources that could be used to support the article and demonstrate notability. The only source that I have found that has anything beyond a passing reference is this one which is an interview with the creator of the alleged martial arts style and offers only some high level details. But aside from that, it is very difficult to even confirm that this martial arts style even actually exists beyond the say-so of one or two individuals. And I certainly have not been able to find significant coverage that could demonstrate that WP:GNG is met.
I originally PROD'd this article as part of NPP but the PROD was contested. So I am now bringing this to AFD. If there are sufficient reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability, I will happily withdraw this nomination. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 06:13, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 06:13, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, This article may remain on Wikipedia for the following reasons:
- Included WP:NWSRC as Iribnews.com, Mehr News Agency, ILNA and Fars News Agency.
- Passed by Wikiproject martial arts guidelines.
- Created and approved by Persian Wikipedia
Regards. AriaTess ( talk) 04:19, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding #1, which articles on those websites demonstrates significant coverage in your opinion? I raised this on your talk page but we couldn't seem to understand each other there.
- Regarding #2, how does this pass the martial arts guidelines? You linked to this before and it is not at all clear to me what you're referring to or how it meets some criteria.
- Regarding #3, the article on Persian Wikipedia was created by the same person that created the article here and at roughly the same time. The creator of both articles was also later banned as an SPA. So I am not sure what weight, if any, we should accord the fact that Persian Wikipedia also has an article about this. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 05:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
FYI to other editors, AriaTess was apparently just blocked as a suspected sockpuppet of the creator of this article. DocFreeman24 ( talk) 01:54, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete None of the reasons given by AriaTess actually show WP notability. Significant coverage by major media would show notability but not passing mentions, the karate task force doesn't have notability criteria listed, and whether or not there's an article in another language's WP is irrelevant. I looked at the article's references and was surprised to see how many of them don't even mention Shindenkai. Others are passing mentions in articles or in lists of organizations. None of this is sufficient to show WP notability. Papaursa ( talk) 21:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
✗
plicit 11:19, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Not enough actual sources about it to support notability. LizardJr8 ( talk) 06:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: Lean towards delete and probably relegate it to a minor style mention somewhere, rather than its own page. Kinda like how Ademir da Costa's Seiwakai is in his entry, or how Northern Praying Mantis lists the Seven Star Praying Mantis Boxing style as a sub-type of aforementioned art. It is more of less a Kyokushin derivative by sorta respected Iranian FC Karateka. Though lot of the edits surrounding this appear to be vanity edits. TrickShotFinn ( talk) 19:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughs about merge and delete as presented by
User:TrickShotFinn?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Missvain (
talk) 19:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- So, as the nominator, my concern with merging is that we really don't have any reliable sources to back up the content that would be merged. It's all fine and well to say "Ah, let's merge as an alternative to deletion." But here, what verifiable content would be merged?
DocFreeman24 (
talk) 21:39, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, sorry. I failed read your arguments through. This page is quite messy and failed to process what was what. While Hamid Soltani seems relatively respected Kyokushin coach, I profess that this is not really "notable-notable" enough for Wikipedia. Also - like DocFreeman said - lot of this stuff seem to be a vanity edits from a single editor; User:MMA Kid - which turns out to be a sock-puppet of User:JRM2018. Unless somebody else can prove anything tangle, I then I'm afraid that Shindekai will get the nuke without mention of it being a Kyokushin sub-type anywhere and live as a small organization mention somewhere. Shindekai has yet to prove it's mettle to justify a wikipedia entry. -- TrickShotFinn ( talk) 08:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Keep: The references covered WP:NWSRC#Asia#Iran Afsane1369 ( talk) 15:14, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if the references are reliable if the coverage is not significant. Passing mentions and lists are not considered significant coverage. Can you point out which reliable references you consider to have significant coverage?
Papaursa (
talk) 20:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Based on
WP:News_sources/Asia#Iran:
Mehr News Agency [
1],
Iribnews.com [
2].
Afsane1369 (
talk) 07:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- The first one is a list of government approved martial arts styles, which is not significant coverage of any of them. The second is an interview with the style's founder. Interviews are not considered significant independent coverage. In addition, the style is only mentioned in passing: "Soltani, founder of ...", so that's another indication of it not being significant coverage. So you have given zero examples of this article meeting WP:GNG. Papaursa ( talk) 13:23, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Based on
WP:News_sources/Asia#Iran:
Mehr News Agency [
1],
Iribnews.com [
2].
Afsane1369 (
talk) 07:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if the references are reliable if the coverage is not significant. Passing mentions and lists are not considered significant coverage. Can you point out which reliable references you consider to have significant coverage?
Papaursa (
talk) 20:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete per nom - discussion has not demonstrated any substantial coverage, and there's a likelihood the article was created promotionally. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 20:10, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, lacks depth of coverage. Nothing to be missed. Hyperbolick ( talk) 08:32, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.