- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:07, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Shaheed Pir Chandam
- Shaheed Pir Chandam ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Searches have only turned up hits from Wikipedia mirrors and Facebook. There's a chance that the subject may have been real, but he certainly isn't notable; no notability or even existence can be definitively established. This seems like yet another in a long line of random articles created about local unknowns among South Asian religious figures. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Delete a really tough one to figure out since it's so poorly referenced (at least in English) and the subject lived 800 years ago. I don't really want to vote delete since a delete vote could be disproven with credible references, but I don't really see what else we can do (maybe a merge to the person he learned from?). SportingFlyer ( talk) 05:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note
Weak Delete- I suspect the building would be notable and possibly the subject as well - 800 year old shrines typically are notable. What is really needed here is someone well versed in Sindhi and Urdu to look for sources. The English variant we're using may be mangled.Barring sources, this fails WP:V, hence my !vote - and I'll be amenable to changing it should any credible source emerge (which I have not been able to find)Icewhiz ( talk) 08:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)- The more proper English spelling is Pir Chandram (there is a village there, road). Some sources in English do exist - e.g.
[1].
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The building pictured is probably this one -
google maps.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is also a "Chandan Pir Hill"
[2] in
Sasaram which may or may not be connected (and is better known for an Asoka inscription, not for the Pir).
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think the source
User:Icewhiz found, Balochistan Through the Ages: Tribes, is referring to the same thing. That source talks about a Pir Chandram near Chhati, which is a few hundred miles away from Dakhan and Medaji, where Pir Chandam is. There are sources that mention the village of Pir Chandam, and there is a shrine there.
Here is an article mentioning an
Urs at that shrine. If we redirect to Dakhan or Medaji, we can mention at that article that there is a nearby village of Pir Chandam with a shrine, but I don't see that the shrine is clearly dedicated to a figure named Shaheed, but I'm not sure.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 02:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Shaheed or shahid is a title here. As is Pir. A title which is self implicitly about a Muslim (and for Pir a Sufi) figure. The different locations on the subcontinent named Pir Chandam/ram/an/ran may all be for the same Pir (or not). Icewhiz ( talk) 05:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC) If the individual has a shrine (or even possibly multiple shrines/locations) - he probably is notable and there probably are sources, quite possible non-English ones. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think the source
User:Icewhiz found, Balochistan Through the Ages: Tribes, is referring to the same thing. That source talks about a Pir Chandram near Chhati, which is a few hundred miles away from Dakhan and Medaji, where Pir Chandam is. There are sources that mention the village of Pir Chandam, and there is a shrine there.
Here is an article mentioning an
Urs at that shrine. If we redirect to Dakhan or Medaji, we can mention at that article that there is a nearby village of Pir Chandam with a shrine, but I don't see that the shrine is clearly dedicated to a figure named Shaheed, but I'm not sure.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 02:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is also a "Chandan Pir Hill"
[2] in
Sasaram which may or may not be connected (and is better known for an Asoka inscription, not for the Pir).
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The building pictured is probably this one -
google maps.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The more proper English spelling is Pir Chandram (there is a village there, road). Some sources in English do exist - e.g.
[1].
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'm still not convinced. The sources as listed are just the names of the individual's teachers, Bahauddin Zakariya and Lal Shahbaz Qalander, so I looked for a biography of them but didn't find one in English. There is likely to be one in Urdu, so perhaps there is mention of Pir Chandam in that. I didn't find mention of the individual in material about Bahauddin Zakariya or about Lal Shahbaz Qalander. Unless something more is found, I'm not planning to !vote one way or the other. Smmurphy( Talk) 12:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep per WP:GEOLAND. The small village, road, and shrine 1.65km east of Dakhan pass WP:V (news reporting, map, and a number of other sources (e.g. flood relief and meteorological). Details on the Sufi Pir (or saint) currently lack a citation. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:58, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep and rename. I've changed my mind. I'd support an article about the village titled "Pir Chandam". The article would basically say that the village exists, it is near Dakhan, and it has a Sufi Shrine. If the proposal is keep and rename, then I support that.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 13:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's what we've got at the moment that passes
WP:V (+retaining the picture of the shrine which would be a shame to lose if unlinked). I presume this
Pir is notable as an individual - but we need someone who is good enough with Sindhi or Urdu to locate sources.
Icewhiz (
talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I am very poor at Urdu, but it is usually enough if there were something available online, but I haven't found anything. Do you (or anyone) have any leads in Urdu?
Smmurphy(
Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Afraid not, and in this can Sindhi would also be highly relevant. I haven't been able to find the proper spelling for the village in Urdu or in Sindhi (and I looked - however wasn't able to find bi-lingual maps or other such sources on-line. Found lots of google-maps clones and for some odd reason google maps only has the English name on this one) - which if I had I might have been able to locate something off of. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I am very poor at Urdu, but it is usually enough if there were something available online, but I haven't found anything. Do you (or anyone) have any leads in Urdu?
Smmurphy(
Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's what we've got at the moment that passes
WP:V (+retaining the picture of the shrine which would be a shame to lose if unlinked). I presume this
Pir is notable as an individual - but we need someone who is good enough with Sindhi or Urdu to locate sources.
Icewhiz (
talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kagundu Talk To Me 06:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kagundu Talk To Me 06:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 23:33, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 23:33, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep- as per Smmurphy and Icewhiz with the focus of the article changed to the village and shrine. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 23:13, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:07, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Shaheed Pir Chandam
- Shaheed Pir Chandam ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Searches have only turned up hits from Wikipedia mirrors and Facebook. There's a chance that the subject may have been real, but he certainly isn't notable; no notability or even existence can be definitively established. This seems like yet another in a long line of random articles created about local unknowns among South Asian religious figures. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo ( talk) 03:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Delete a really tough one to figure out since it's so poorly referenced (at least in English) and the subject lived 800 years ago. I don't really want to vote delete since a delete vote could be disproven with credible references, but I don't really see what else we can do (maybe a merge to the person he learned from?). SportingFlyer ( talk) 05:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note
Weak Delete- I suspect the building would be notable and possibly the subject as well - 800 year old shrines typically are notable. What is really needed here is someone well versed in Sindhi and Urdu to look for sources. The English variant we're using may be mangled.Barring sources, this fails WP:V, hence my !vote - and I'll be amenable to changing it should any credible source emerge (which I have not been able to find)Icewhiz ( talk) 08:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)- The more proper English spelling is Pir Chandram (there is a village there, road). Some sources in English do exist - e.g.
[1].
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The building pictured is probably this one -
google maps.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is also a "Chandan Pir Hill"
[2] in
Sasaram which may or may not be connected (and is better known for an Asoka inscription, not for the Pir).
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think the source
User:Icewhiz found, Balochistan Through the Ages: Tribes, is referring to the same thing. That source talks about a Pir Chandram near Chhati, which is a few hundred miles away from Dakhan and Medaji, where Pir Chandam is. There are sources that mention the village of Pir Chandam, and there is a shrine there.
Here is an article mentioning an
Urs at that shrine. If we redirect to Dakhan or Medaji, we can mention at that article that there is a nearby village of Pir Chandam with a shrine, but I don't see that the shrine is clearly dedicated to a figure named Shaheed, but I'm not sure.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 02:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Shaheed or shahid is a title here. As is Pir. A title which is self implicitly about a Muslim (and for Pir a Sufi) figure. The different locations on the subcontinent named Pir Chandam/ram/an/ran may all be for the same Pir (or not). Icewhiz ( talk) 05:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC) If the individual has a shrine (or even possibly multiple shrines/locations) - he probably is notable and there probably are sources, quite possible non-English ones. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think the source
User:Icewhiz found, Balochistan Through the Ages: Tribes, is referring to the same thing. That source talks about a Pir Chandram near Chhati, which is a few hundred miles away from Dakhan and Medaji, where Pir Chandam is. There are sources that mention the village of Pir Chandam, and there is a shrine there.
Here is an article mentioning an
Urs at that shrine. If we redirect to Dakhan or Medaji, we can mention at that article that there is a nearby village of Pir Chandam with a shrine, but I don't see that the shrine is clearly dedicated to a figure named Shaheed, but I'm not sure.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 02:53, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is also a "Chandan Pir Hill"
[2] in
Sasaram which may or may not be connected (and is better known for an Asoka inscription, not for the Pir).
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The building pictured is probably this one -
google maps.
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- The more proper English spelling is Pir Chandram (there is a village there, road). Some sources in English do exist - e.g.
[1].
Icewhiz (
talk) 09:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'm still not convinced. The sources as listed are just the names of the individual's teachers, Bahauddin Zakariya and Lal Shahbaz Qalander, so I looked for a biography of them but didn't find one in English. There is likely to be one in Urdu, so perhaps there is mention of Pir Chandam in that. I didn't find mention of the individual in material about Bahauddin Zakariya or about Lal Shahbaz Qalander. Unless something more is found, I'm not planning to !vote one way or the other. Smmurphy( Talk) 12:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep per WP:GEOLAND. The small village, road, and shrine 1.65km east of Dakhan pass WP:V (news reporting, map, and a number of other sources (e.g. flood relief and meteorological). Details on the Sufi Pir (or saint) currently lack a citation. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:58, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep and rename. I've changed my mind. I'd support an article about the village titled "Pir Chandam". The article would basically say that the village exists, it is near Dakhan, and it has a Sufi Shrine. If the proposal is keep and rename, then I support that.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 13:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's what we've got at the moment that passes
WP:V (+retaining the picture of the shrine which would be a shame to lose if unlinked). I presume this
Pir is notable as an individual - but we need someone who is good enough with Sindhi or Urdu to locate sources.
Icewhiz (
talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I am very poor at Urdu, but it is usually enough if there were something available online, but I haven't found anything. Do you (or anyone) have any leads in Urdu?
Smmurphy(
Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- Afraid not, and in this can Sindhi would also be highly relevant. I haven't been able to find the proper spelling for the village in Urdu or in Sindhi (and I looked - however wasn't able to find bi-lingual maps or other such sources on-line. Found lots of google-maps clones and for some odd reason google maps only has the English name on this one) - which if I had I might have been able to locate something off of. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- I am very poor at Urdu, but it is usually enough if there were something available online, but I haven't found anything. Do you (or anyone) have any leads in Urdu?
Smmurphy(
Talk) 14:49, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
- It's what we've got at the moment that passes
WP:V (+retaining the picture of the shrine which would be a shame to lose if unlinked). I presume this
Pir is notable as an individual - but we need someone who is good enough with Sindhi or Urdu to locate sources.
Icewhiz (
talk) 13:16, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kagundu Talk To Me 06:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kagundu Talk To Me 06:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 23:33, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 23:33, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep- as per Smmurphy and Icewhiz with the focus of the article changed to the village and shrine. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 23:13, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.