- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Shōnen manga. Consensus is that "shōnen" should redirect to shōnen manga but that its content should be split to a new page. However, that content is unsourced. Feel free to merge from the page history to a new article, but it will need reliable, secondary sources for verifiability. czar 04:37, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
- Shōnen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article is about a term (a Japanese word) and what it denotes, falling foul of WP:NOTDICT; it does not extend beyond trying to define the term, which is (barely?) used in English at all, and its subsidiary terms "The following meanings..." are surely quite unknown in English. An entirely inappropriate topic for English Wikipedia. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- 'Strong keep It's use as a demographic is extremely common in discussion of Japanese media, even in English language RS that cover Japanese media. I make no comment on the article content but as a term it's quite important in coverage of aforementioned media. As an article target Wp:Anime amongst other are going to link to it heavily - any change would be problematic.I think this is article cleanup. SephyTheThird ( talk) 11:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. SephyTheThird ( talk) 12:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. SephyTheThird ( talk) 12:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to Shōnen manga. This is a dictionary entry, and looks inappropriate for an encyclopedia per WP:NOTDICT. As a target demographic, the term is very widely used, but almost exclusively in the context of manga and anime adapted from manga. The article shōnen manga is the one that discusses that target demographic, and almost all of the incoming links to shōnen actually should be going there instead. Calathan ( talk) 14:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Redirect to Shōnen manga. @ SephyTheThird: I think you are confusing the two, this appears to be a definition for boy. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 15:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)- Okay, based on Nihonjoe's comment below and my lack of knowledge on wiktionary I am moving to Weak Keep. The article needs improvement but AfD is not a place for cleanup. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Comment I have redirected Shōjo to Shōjo manga for the same reasons. The article's history is kept so any useful info can always be merged. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 15:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)- I have undone that redirect. That article is even better sourced than this one, and is not just a WP:DICDEF. ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Strong keep as this article goes far beyond any mere dictionary definition. It includes various legal usages and explanations (and dictionaries don't include explanations). This is absolutely not just a WP:DICDEF. ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- I think that is a valid argument that the page isn't just a dictionary definition, but not a good argument for keeping the page as is. As far as I can tell, "shōnen" is just the Japanese equivalent of the words "boy" or "youth". The article talks about Japanese law pertaining to youths, and of course those laws will use the common Japanese word for a youth and will define the exact ages to which they apply, but that doesn't make the word "shōnen" a specialized concept rather than just the normal Japanese word for a boy or youth. The article is basically about the concept of Japanese youth law, but an article on that concept should be at a page named something like
Japanese youth law, not a page named using the normal Japanese word for a boy. If some independent sources covering the subject on Japanese youth law can be found (the page as it stands would fail
WP:N, with only one non-independent source), then I think it would be fine to keep the article, but again it should be under another name. However, regardless of whether the content in the current page is kept somewhere, I think our page
shōnen should take the reader to the page on
shōnen manga. The term "shōnen" is overwhelmingly using in English as a demographic of manga and anime (see for instance Google results at
[1]]), and is also overwhelmingly used in that way on the English Wikipedia (see
Special:WhatLinksHere/Shōnen).
Calathan (
talk)
21:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine moving the article to
Japanese youth law or
Japanese juvenile law, and then redirecting
shōnen to
shōnen manga. I'm sure various academic papers and such have been written on the topic of Japanese juvenile law. As for what you think, I already know that since you !voted to redirect.
···
日本穣 ·
投稿 ·
Talk to Nihonjoe ·
Join WP Japan!
23:48, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree that Japanese youth law or something similar would be a more appropriate title for the article than shōnen or having it become a redirect to shōnen manga, but as this article also contains information on the etymology (albeit an empty section) and the demographic usage of the term, then perhaps the title should be simply Japanese youth. – Matthew - ( talk) 20:27, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine moving the article to
Japanese youth law or
Japanese juvenile law, and then redirecting
shōnen to
shōnen manga. I'm sure various academic papers and such have been written on the topic of Japanese juvenile law. As for what you think, I already know that since you !voted to redirect.
- I think that is a valid argument that the page isn't just a dictionary definition, but not a good argument for keeping the page as is. As far as I can tell, "shōnen" is just the Japanese equivalent of the words "boy" or "youth". The article talks about Japanese law pertaining to youths, and of course those laws will use the common Japanese word for a youth and will define the exact ages to which they apply, but that doesn't make the word "shōnen" a specialized concept rather than just the normal Japanese word for a boy or youth. The article is basically about the concept of Japanese youth law, but an article on that concept should be at a page named something like
Japanese youth law, not a page named using the normal Japanese word for a boy. If some independent sources covering the subject on Japanese youth law can be found (the page as it stands would fail
WP:N, with only one non-independent source), then I think it would be fine to keep the article, but again it should be under another name. However, regardless of whether the content in the current page is kept somewhere, I think our page
shōnen should take the reader to the page on
shōnen manga. The term "shōnen" is overwhelmingly using in English as a demographic of manga and anime (see for instance Google results at
[1]]), and is also overwhelmingly used in that way on the English Wikipedia (see
Special:WhatLinksHere/Shōnen).
Calathan (
talk)
21:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. Goes beyond dictionary definition to explain legal and demographic concept.-- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 22:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to shōnen manga. As a media demographic, the topic is covered there, and the Japanese youth law content belongs, as has been mentioned, in a separate article about that if one is ever written. What remeins is a dicdef. Sandstein 16:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 12:39, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 12:39, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- Move to Japanese youth law and redirect this to shōnen manga per WP:COMMONNAME. It appears to me as though the vast majority of English-language references to this term are manga-related (Google News search makes this pretty obvious), so that's the common usage of the term in English. agtx 19:59, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- Move per Agtx. Shonen should go to shōnen manga as primary topic. Searching "Shonen" for the Japanese youth law is not a likely search for English Wikipedia but a dab could be created like Shonen (law). AngusWOOF ( bark • sniff) 22:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment' Based on consensus, I do not see this as a deletion discussion anymore. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per 日本穣. As the article focuses on the legal context of the term in Japan, I do not consider it becoming a redirect as an appropriate solution.-- MarshalN20 ✉ 🕊 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect as the above comments themselves show and concur this is not currently convincing as its own article and there's been no shown convincing signs. SwisterTwister talk 04:43, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Shōnen manga. Consensus is that "shōnen" should redirect to shōnen manga but that its content should be split to a new page. However, that content is unsourced. Feel free to merge from the page history to a new article, but it will need reliable, secondary sources for verifiability. czar 04:37, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
- Shōnen ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article is about a term (a Japanese word) and what it denotes, falling foul of WP:NOTDICT; it does not extend beyond trying to define the term, which is (barely?) used in English at all, and its subsidiary terms "The following meanings..." are surely quite unknown in English. An entirely inappropriate topic for English Wikipedia. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- 'Strong keep It's use as a demographic is extremely common in discussion of Japanese media, even in English language RS that cover Japanese media. I make no comment on the article content but as a term it's quite important in coverage of aforementioned media. As an article target Wp:Anime amongst other are going to link to it heavily - any change would be problematic.I think this is article cleanup. SephyTheThird ( talk) 11:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. SephyTheThird ( talk) 12:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. SephyTheThird ( talk) 12:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to Shōnen manga. This is a dictionary entry, and looks inappropriate for an encyclopedia per WP:NOTDICT. As a target demographic, the term is very widely used, but almost exclusively in the context of manga and anime adapted from manga. The article shōnen manga is the one that discusses that target demographic, and almost all of the incoming links to shōnen actually should be going there instead. Calathan ( talk) 14:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Redirect to Shōnen manga. @ SephyTheThird: I think you are confusing the two, this appears to be a definition for boy. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 15:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)- Okay, based on Nihonjoe's comment below and my lack of knowledge on wiktionary I am moving to Weak Keep. The article needs improvement but AfD is not a place for cleanup. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 19:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Comment I have redirected Shōjo to Shōjo manga for the same reasons. The article's history is kept so any useful info can always be merged. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 15:08, 6 December 2016 (UTC)- I have undone that redirect. That article is even better sourced than this one, and is not just a WP:DICDEF. ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:17, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Strong keep as this article goes far beyond any mere dictionary definition. It includes various legal usages and explanations (and dictionaries don't include explanations). This is absolutely not just a WP:DICDEF. ··· 日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- I think that is a valid argument that the page isn't just a dictionary definition, but not a good argument for keeping the page as is. As far as I can tell, "shōnen" is just the Japanese equivalent of the words "boy" or "youth". The article talks about Japanese law pertaining to youths, and of course those laws will use the common Japanese word for a youth and will define the exact ages to which they apply, but that doesn't make the word "shōnen" a specialized concept rather than just the normal Japanese word for a boy or youth. The article is basically about the concept of Japanese youth law, but an article on that concept should be at a page named something like
Japanese youth law, not a page named using the normal Japanese word for a boy. If some independent sources covering the subject on Japanese youth law can be found (the page as it stands would fail
WP:N, with only one non-independent source), then I think it would be fine to keep the article, but again it should be under another name. However, regardless of whether the content in the current page is kept somewhere, I think our page
shōnen should take the reader to the page on
shōnen manga. The term "shōnen" is overwhelmingly using in English as a demographic of manga and anime (see for instance Google results at
[1]]), and is also overwhelmingly used in that way on the English Wikipedia (see
Special:WhatLinksHere/Shōnen).
Calathan (
talk)
21:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine moving the article to
Japanese youth law or
Japanese juvenile law, and then redirecting
shōnen to
shōnen manga. I'm sure various academic papers and such have been written on the topic of Japanese juvenile law. As for what you think, I already know that since you !voted to redirect.
···
日本穣 ·
投稿 ·
Talk to Nihonjoe ·
Join WP Japan!
23:48, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I agree that Japanese youth law or something similar would be a more appropriate title for the article than shōnen or having it become a redirect to shōnen manga, but as this article also contains information on the etymology (albeit an empty section) and the demographic usage of the term, then perhaps the title should be simply Japanese youth. – Matthew - ( talk) 20:27, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- I would be fine moving the article to
Japanese youth law or
Japanese juvenile law, and then redirecting
shōnen to
shōnen manga. I'm sure various academic papers and such have been written on the topic of Japanese juvenile law. As for what you think, I already know that since you !voted to redirect.
- I think that is a valid argument that the page isn't just a dictionary definition, but not a good argument for keeping the page as is. As far as I can tell, "shōnen" is just the Japanese equivalent of the words "boy" or "youth". The article talks about Japanese law pertaining to youths, and of course those laws will use the common Japanese word for a youth and will define the exact ages to which they apply, but that doesn't make the word "shōnen" a specialized concept rather than just the normal Japanese word for a boy or youth. The article is basically about the concept of Japanese youth law, but an article on that concept should be at a page named something like
Japanese youth law, not a page named using the normal Japanese word for a boy. If some independent sources covering the subject on Japanese youth law can be found (the page as it stands would fail
WP:N, with only one non-independent source), then I think it would be fine to keep the article, but again it should be under another name. However, regardless of whether the content in the current page is kept somewhere, I think our page
shōnen should take the reader to the page on
shōnen manga. The term "shōnen" is overwhelmingly using in English as a demographic of manga and anime (see for instance Google results at
[1]]), and is also overwhelmingly used in that way on the English Wikipedia (see
Special:WhatLinksHere/Shōnen).
Calathan (
talk)
21:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. Goes beyond dictionary definition to explain legal and demographic concept.-- Andreas Philopater ( talk) 22:31, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to shōnen manga. As a media demographic, the topic is covered there, and the Japanese youth law content belongs, as has been mentioned, in a separate article about that if one is ever written. What remeins is a dicdef. Sandstein 16:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 12:39, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 12:39, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- Move to Japanese youth law and redirect this to shōnen manga per WP:COMMONNAME. It appears to me as though the vast majority of English-language references to this term are manga-related (Google News search makes this pretty obvious), so that's the common usage of the term in English. agtx 19:59, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- Move per Agtx. Shonen should go to shōnen manga as primary topic. Searching "Shonen" for the Japanese youth law is not a likely search for English Wikipedia but a dab could be created like Shonen (law). AngusWOOF ( bark • sniff) 22:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Comment' Based on consensus, I do not see this as a deletion discussion anymore. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per 日本穣. As the article focuses on the legal context of the term in Japan, I do not consider it becoming a redirect as an appropriate solution.-- MarshalN20 ✉ 🕊 01:16, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect as the above comments themselves show and concur this is not currently convincing as its own article and there's been no shown convincing signs. SwisterTwister talk 04:43, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.