- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. j⚛e decker talk 02:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Serbian American Museum St. Sava ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Lacks notability. The only source given in the article is a self-published (by the writer, not by the museum) book from 1984. Looking for other sources, I can't find any reliable sources giving any significant attention to this museum, only some routine listings of events at the museum, and mentions from less reliable sources (fora, blogs, personal websites, ...) Fram ( talk) 09:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
KEEP - The Serbian American Museum St. Sava is a notable organization. The Serbian American Museum St. Sava is recognized as an ethnic community organization by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs [1], http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations.aspx?hkey=050c9204-e774-4be0-a0a4-f7f1ea542028
and as a community cultural organization by the Chicago Cultural Alliance. [2] http://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/november-2011/community-cultural-organizations-collaborate-through-the-chicago-cultural-alliance
- ^ http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations.aspx?hkey=050c9204-e774-4be0-a0a4-f7f1ea542028
- ^ http://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/november-2011/community-cultural-organizations-collaborate-through-the-chicago-cultural-alliance
I added these two references to the article. Carriearchdale ( talk) 10:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- That the city council has added an organisation in the city to a list of some 100 other organisations [1], or was a member of a group mentioned in an article where it doesn't even warrant a mention in the introduction, unlike many other organisations in the list [2] (a group, by the way, of which it no longer even is a member apparently [3], are hardly elements to claim that an article meets WP:N. Fram ( talk) 11:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Museums and libraries-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. The museum was founded in 1952. A 60+ year old museum is notable, though this could probably use more sources (has anyone checked the local Serbian language press?)--
Pharos (
talk) 19:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it has only become a museum a few years ago, before that it was a club / meeting place / cultural centrum. So it is not a 60+ year old museum (which in itself is not a claim to notability either).
Fram (
talk) 21:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, because I researched it a bit more, we now know that they changed the name to "museum" fairly recently (though it's unclear if this means they started exhibitions at that time or earlier). However, even without the museum aspect, it still appears that they have been a major cultural force in the international Serbian diaspora for 60 years - their newspaper is widely cited, and clearly more research is needed. Apparently they have/had chapters of the organization as far away as Australia, and this international political aspect is somewhat parallel to the
Serbian National Defense Council (though this group appears to be more moderate politically).--
Pharos (
talk) 16:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Looking into this even more, it appears we should probably have a separate article on the Serbian Cultural Club, which seems to have been founded in Serbia just before WWII, had a major political role there, relocated to Chicago as a diaspora base after the war (with branches worldwide), and whose Chicago mother chapter has now evolved more or less into a nonpolitical museum.-- Pharos ( talk) 16:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, because I researched it a bit more, we now know that they changed the name to "museum" fairly recently (though it's unclear if this means they started exhibitions at that time or earlier). However, even without the museum aspect, it still appears that they have been a major cultural force in the international Serbian diaspora for 60 years - their newspaper is widely cited, and clearly more research is needed. Apparently they have/had chapters of the organization as far away as Australia, and this international political aspect is somewhat parallel to the
Serbian National Defense Council (though this group appears to be more moderate politically).--
Pharos (
talk) 16:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it has only become a museum a few years ago, before that it was a club / meeting place / cultural centrum. So it is not a 60+ year old museum (which in itself is not a claim to notability either).
Fram (
talk) 21:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 00:57, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - "The organization also hosts the Serbian American Chamber of Commerce, established 1987." What kind of a museum is this? Leave aside notability I doubt it can be considered a real museum. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 07:40, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 04:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - whether this is to be kept or not, I am not sure. However, we need to clarify that this a primarily a cultural center, not a museum, in the sense I think most of our readers would think. It could be notable - the Chicago area has a large Southern Slav population, as well as many fine museums and cultural centers of international repute. But so far, I have not read much to convince me either way. A reference to a local consortium of cultural centers does not give me a lot of respect for this institution. An organization needs to show that it has been covered by multiple sources of independent media, or have won recognition from national or state agencies, such as landmark status, to be notable. Userfication would be appropriate here. Bearian ( talk) 17:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe it would be best to move it to Serbian Cultural Club St. Sava, as this was apparently for many years a worldwide diaspora movement based in Chicago, and would be the primary source of notability. And then perhaps have the actual "museum" part as a subsection of this, as the latest evolution of what was once a more major organization.-- Pharos ( talk) 19:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Moving will bring it notability? Delete, not notable enough for WP. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 19:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Davey2010 • (talk) 15:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - The organization has simply not been discussed in depth by a sufficient number of independent sources. Age does not confer notability, otherwise I would write articles about some of the rocks in my back yard. I also agree with WsIhaUN? Renaming it will not make it notable. - Mr X 17:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Delete until this is a notable enough museum to get mentioned in respectable travel guides.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. j⚛e decker talk 02:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- Serbian American Museum St. Sava ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Lacks notability. The only source given in the article is a self-published (by the writer, not by the museum) book from 1984. Looking for other sources, I can't find any reliable sources giving any significant attention to this museum, only some routine listings of events at the museum, and mentions from less reliable sources (fora, blogs, personal websites, ...) Fram ( talk) 09:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
KEEP - The Serbian American Museum St. Sava is a notable organization. The Serbian American Museum St. Sava is recognized as an ethnic community organization by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs [1], http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations.aspx?hkey=050c9204-e774-4be0-a0a4-f7f1ea542028
and as a community cultural organization by the Chicago Cultural Alliance. [2] http://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/november-2011/community-cultural-organizations-collaborate-through-the-chicago-cultural-alliance
- ^ http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations/files/Global_Chicago/Ethnic_Community_Organizations.aspx?hkey=050c9204-e774-4be0-a0a4-f7f1ea542028
- ^ http://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/november-2011/community-cultural-organizations-collaborate-through-the-chicago-cultural-alliance
I added these two references to the article. Carriearchdale ( talk) 10:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- That the city council has added an organisation in the city to a list of some 100 other organisations [1], or was a member of a group mentioned in an article where it doesn't even warrant a mention in the introduction, unlike many other organisations in the list [2] (a group, by the way, of which it no longer even is a member apparently [3], are hardly elements to claim that an article meets WP:N. Fram ( talk) 11:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Museums and libraries-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. The museum was founded in 1952. A 60+ year old museum is notable, though this could probably use more sources (has anyone checked the local Serbian language press?)--
Pharos (
talk) 19:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it has only become a museum a few years ago, before that it was a club / meeting place / cultural centrum. So it is not a 60+ year old museum (which in itself is not a claim to notability either).
Fram (
talk) 21:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, because I researched it a bit more, we now know that they changed the name to "museum" fairly recently (though it's unclear if this means they started exhibitions at that time or earlier). However, even without the museum aspect, it still appears that they have been a major cultural force in the international Serbian diaspora for 60 years - their newspaper is widely cited, and clearly more research is needed. Apparently they have/had chapters of the organization as far away as Australia, and this international political aspect is somewhat parallel to the
Serbian National Defense Council (though this group appears to be more moderate politically).--
Pharos (
talk) 16:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Looking into this even more, it appears we should probably have a separate article on the Serbian Cultural Club, which seems to have been founded in Serbia just before WWII, had a major political role there, relocated to Chicago as a diaspora base after the war (with branches worldwide), and whose Chicago mother chapter has now evolved more or less into a nonpolitical museum.-- Pharos ( talk) 16:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, because I researched it a bit more, we now know that they changed the name to "museum" fairly recently (though it's unclear if this means they started exhibitions at that time or earlier). However, even without the museum aspect, it still appears that they have been a major cultural force in the international Serbian diaspora for 60 years - their newspaper is widely cited, and clearly more research is needed. Apparently they have/had chapters of the organization as far away as Australia, and this international political aspect is somewhat parallel to the
Serbian National Defense Council (though this group appears to be more moderate politically).--
Pharos (
talk) 16:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it has only become a museum a few years ago, before that it was a club / meeting place / cultural centrum. So it is not a 60+ year old museum (which in itself is not a claim to notability either).
Fram (
talk) 21:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 00:57, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - "The organization also hosts the Serbian American Chamber of Commerce, established 1987." What kind of a museum is this? Leave aside notability I doubt it can be considered a real museum. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 07:40, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 04:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - whether this is to be kept or not, I am not sure. However, we need to clarify that this a primarily a cultural center, not a museum, in the sense I think most of our readers would think. It could be notable - the Chicago area has a large Southern Slav population, as well as many fine museums and cultural centers of international repute. But so far, I have not read much to convince me either way. A reference to a local consortium of cultural centers does not give me a lot of respect for this institution. An organization needs to show that it has been covered by multiple sources of independent media, or have won recognition from national or state agencies, such as landmark status, to be notable. Userfication would be appropriate here. Bearian ( talk) 17:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe it would be best to move it to Serbian Cultural Club St. Sava, as this was apparently for many years a worldwide diaspora movement based in Chicago, and would be the primary source of notability. And then perhaps have the actual "museum" part as a subsection of this, as the latest evolution of what was once a more major organization.-- Pharos ( talk) 19:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Moving will bring it notability? Delete, not notable enough for WP. -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 19:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Davey2010 • (talk) 15:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - The organization has simply not been discussed in depth by a sufficient number of independent sources. Age does not confer notability, otherwise I would write articles about some of the rocks in my back yard. I also agree with WsIhaUN? Renaming it will not make it notable. - Mr X 17:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Delete until this is a notable enough museum to get mentioned in respectable travel guides.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.