- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 13:57, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Sawyer-Barrow House
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- Sawyer-Barrow House ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not seeing anything notable about this house. It exists and is old, but has no historic designation and I am not finding any true "in-depth" coverage. It appears that the builder/architect might be more notable that this particular house. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment -- I am not qualified to judge its architectural merit, but would comment that the article has a good list of sources, but almost all by the same author. It seems to have eben regarded as an important enough building to be saved in 1961 by moving it to a new spot. Peterkingiron ( talk) 18:09, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- Most (probably all) of the sources attributed to Jack Barrow aren't attributed correctly. The book Architecture of the Western Reserve 1800-1900, for example, is by Richard N. Campen. - Eureka Lott 18:18, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I was adding the references incorrectly. I mistakenly thought the first and last names were required to track who was adding the reference. I will fix them. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment -- The house does have a historic designation which was awarded to it in in 1968 by the Heritage Home Committee of the Lake County Historical Society. [1] I will upload a photo of the letter received 08/19/21968 as a reference. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Only a local designation does not suggest there should be significant in-depth coverage in multiple reliable sources. MB 17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Lake County Historical Society". lakehistorycenter.pastperfectonline.com. Retrieved 29 November 2021.
- Comment It was mentioned that a house can't be notable solely based on who the builder/architect might have been. I'd like to point out that of the 4 publications I've cited as references only one is devoted to the Builder. Two of the others recount the history of the City of Mentor, Ohio where it resides and the other is a work on northern Ohio Architecture. Unfortunately none of these sources are available online and copyright restrictions prevent me from uploading images of them myself. Is it possible maybe to share the information with a Wikipedia administrator outside of Wikipedia? Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions are not
significant coverage. Do any of these offline sources more than mention the house in a sentence here or there, or in a list or photo. Was the house actually written about?
MB
17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Of the 4 publications I mentioned all have photographs of the house. In the Book on Johnathan Goldsmith the house has its own page with related text. The book "Mentor: First 200 Years" is an 11x8 inch hard bound 193 page work completed by the City of Mentor 20 years ago by local historians without my involvement. In it the house is displayed twice with photos and a couple paragraphs of text. Once as it relates to the early settlers from around 1820 and again for its role as one of the large estates that populated this region in the early 1900's. There is another magazine publication called "Country Homes" that was published in 1920's that has 10 photo's and 4 pages of text on the history of the house that go with them. However, I was given the pages without the rest of the magazine so I have no date or author's name. Which is why I've been reluctant to reference it in Wikipedia until I can do more research to find the complete source. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions are not
significant coverage. Do any of these offline sources more than mention the house in a sentence here or there, or in a list or photo. Was the house actually written about?
MB
17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk)
02:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep There multiple sources locaed in the article and a simple search shows its designated an historical site in 1968. Its a pretty good article and I see zero grounds for an adf on this article.
Super (
talk)
03:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Have you evaluated whether any of the sources provide in-depth coverage necessary to meet WP:GNG? The historic designation in 1968 is not sourced in the article, and in any event was given by a county historical society. That is of highly local nature and does not automatically confer notability. MB 04:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete I can't find any coverage specifically on the house - the best two sources would be the local paper which I can't access talking about how the house was moved, but those can't save it on its own and I don't think a "Country Homes"-type magazine would necessarily convey notability. It simply appears this is a historic albeit non-notable house. If the architect has a page, it may be worth listing a small amount of the information there. SportingFlyer T· C 00:33, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein
10:25, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. as with other historic house. We aren ot part of the Federal or State systems, and that is not a requirmeent for inclusion.
DGG (
talk )
01:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Being recognized on a national or state historic registry means there is a presumption of meeting GNG. There is no such presumpton with local historic designations; GNG must be met by finding in-depth coverage in multiple independent RS. MB 04:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Explicit analysis of whether the sources available do or do not meet the GNG would be very helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Seraphimblade
Talk to me
01:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Interesting bit of local history, but I can't find any sources to back it up. It's not on the NRHP or any State list, I don't think it's worth including here. Could be a sub-section about the master builder, but he doesn't have an article either. Oaktree b ( talk) 02:18, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep If its an interesting bit of local history, then I feel it should be kept. Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER after all. If there is verifiable information here that would be better somewhere else in the encyclopedia as suggested above, then I feel that article should be created and the information merged there prior to this article being deleted. Otherwise, the information would be lost. NemesisAT ( talk) 10:50, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - Not convinced that this specific house merits inclusion on Wikipedia at this time. Most of the sourcing discusses the architect, Mr. Sawyer, or general local news about construction and the house in modern times (i.e. a gas station being put onsite, etc). Most of the sources are also by one journalist and a lot of the house details in the article are unsourced original research. I do think that there should be a Wikipedia article about the architect, but, I am not convinced (even with my attempts at newspaper.com and other sources) that the house itself merits a full article. Missvain ( talk) 05:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I think it's notable as a beautiful historic building, although perhaps it should be reshaped into an article about the master-builder who built it as the sources are more focussed on him than the house. 1. The house itself was notable enough to be included in this book 2. Ficaia ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Notable as similar other buildings of Goldsmith are on the national registries so while this one is not so "noted" it is notable as is the architect/builder. Maybe a page for him and all his surviving buildings is the best, but the evolution to that doesn't come by first deleting articles and the source information. That "Most of the sources are also by one journalist" is not true: JBarrow51 made a mistake in putting his own name on the sources he intended to cite, as he explained above. Like me, he's a new editor and makes mistakes. I see the welcoming committee here didn't waste even two weeks before they AfD'd one of his first articles. I corrected all but 3 of the "JBarrow" sourcings: two are to newspapers (Painsville Telegraph and Mentor Monitor) which I don't have access to, and the third just links to wkrs.org main page and not a specific page on the site that supports anything in the article. Ohio History Center in Columbus has the 1961 issues of the Mentor Monitor: if you want to save this page, I'd hoof it over there and get the WP:SIGCOV people want to see. https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84028225/holdings/ BBQboffin ( talk) 16:22, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Sandstein 13:57, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Sawyer-Barrow House
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Sawyer-Barrow House ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not seeing anything notable about this house. It exists and is old, but has no historic designation and I am not finding any true "in-depth" coverage. It appears that the builder/architect might be more notable that this particular house. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. MB 02:40, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment -- I am not qualified to judge its architectural merit, but would comment that the article has a good list of sources, but almost all by the same author. It seems to have eben regarded as an important enough building to be saved in 1961 by moving it to a new spot. Peterkingiron ( talk) 18:09, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- Most (probably all) of the sources attributed to Jack Barrow aren't attributed correctly. The book Architecture of the Western Reserve 1800-1900, for example, is by Richard N. Campen. - Eureka Lott 18:18, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I was adding the references incorrectly. I mistakenly thought the first and last names were required to track who was adding the reference. I will fix them. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment -- The house does have a historic designation which was awarded to it in in 1968 by the Heritage Home Committee of the Lake County Historical Society. [1] I will upload a photo of the letter received 08/19/21968 as a reference. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Only a local designation does not suggest there should be significant in-depth coverage in multiple reliable sources. MB 17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Lake County Historical Society". lakehistorycenter.pastperfectonline.com. Retrieved 29 November 2021.
- Comment It was mentioned that a house can't be notable solely based on who the builder/architect might have been. I'd like to point out that of the 4 publications I've cited as references only one is devoted to the Builder. Two of the others recount the history of the City of Mentor, Ohio where it resides and the other is a work on northern Ohio Architecture. Unfortunately none of these sources are available online and copyright restrictions prevent me from uploading images of them myself. Is it possible maybe to share the information with a Wikipedia administrator outside of Wikipedia? Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions are not
significant coverage. Do any of these offline sources more than mention the house in a sentence here or there, or in a list or photo. Was the house actually written about?
MB
17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Of the 4 publications I mentioned all have photographs of the house. In the Book on Johnathan Goldsmith the house has its own page with related text. The book "Mentor: First 200 Years" is an 11x8 inch hard bound 193 page work completed by the City of Mentor 20 years ago by local historians without my involvement. In it the house is displayed twice with photos and a couple paragraphs of text. Once as it relates to the early settlers from around 1820 and again for its role as one of the large estates that populated this region in the early 1900's. There is another magazine publication called "Country Homes" that was published in 1920's that has 10 photo's and 4 pages of text on the history of the house that go with them. However, I was given the pages without the rest of the magazine so I have no date or author's name. Which is why I've been reluctant to reference it in Wikipedia until I can do more research to find the complete source. Jbarrow51 ( talk) 15:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions are not
significant coverage. Do any of these offline sources more than mention the house in a sentence here or there, or in a list or photo. Was the house actually written about?
MB
17:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Daniel (
talk)
02:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep There multiple sources locaed in the article and a simple search shows its designated an historical site in 1968. Its a pretty good article and I see zero grounds for an adf on this article.
Super (
talk)
03:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Have you evaluated whether any of the sources provide in-depth coverage necessary to meet WP:GNG? The historic designation in 1968 is not sourced in the article, and in any event was given by a county historical society. That is of highly local nature and does not automatically confer notability. MB 04:09, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete I can't find any coverage specifically on the house - the best two sources would be the local paper which I can't access talking about how the house was moved, but those can't save it on its own and I don't think a "Country Homes"-type magazine would necessarily convey notability. It simply appears this is a historic albeit non-notable house. If the architect has a page, it may be worth listing a small amount of the information there. SportingFlyer T· C 00:33, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein
10:25, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. as with other historic house. We aren ot part of the Federal or State systems, and that is not a requirmeent for inclusion.
DGG (
talk )
01:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- Being recognized on a national or state historic registry means there is a presumption of meeting GNG. There is no such presumpton with local historic designations; GNG must be met by finding in-depth coverage in multiple independent RS. MB 04:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Explicit analysis of whether the sources available do or do not meet the GNG would be very helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Seraphimblade
Talk to me
01:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Interesting bit of local history, but I can't find any sources to back it up. It's not on the NRHP or any State list, I don't think it's worth including here. Could be a sub-section about the master builder, but he doesn't have an article either. Oaktree b ( talk) 02:18, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep If its an interesting bit of local history, then I feel it should be kept. Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER after all. If there is verifiable information here that would be better somewhere else in the encyclopedia as suggested above, then I feel that article should be created and the information merged there prior to this article being deleted. Otherwise, the information would be lost. NemesisAT ( talk) 10:50, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - Not convinced that this specific house merits inclusion on Wikipedia at this time. Most of the sourcing discusses the architect, Mr. Sawyer, or general local news about construction and the house in modern times (i.e. a gas station being put onsite, etc). Most of the sources are also by one journalist and a lot of the house details in the article are unsourced original research. I do think that there should be a Wikipedia article about the architect, but, I am not convinced (even with my attempts at newspaper.com and other sources) that the house itself merits a full article. Missvain ( talk) 05:11, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I think it's notable as a beautiful historic building, although perhaps it should be reshaped into an article about the master-builder who built it as the sources are more focussed on him than the house. 1. The house itself was notable enough to be included in this book 2. Ficaia ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:38, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Notable as similar other buildings of Goldsmith are on the national registries so while this one is not so "noted" it is notable as is the architect/builder. Maybe a page for him and all his surviving buildings is the best, but the evolution to that doesn't come by first deleting articles and the source information. That "Most of the sources are also by one journalist" is not true: JBarrow51 made a mistake in putting his own name on the sources he intended to cite, as he explained above. Like me, he's a new editor and makes mistakes. I see the welcoming committee here didn't waste even two weeks before they AfD'd one of his first articles. I corrected all but 3 of the "JBarrow" sourcings: two are to newspapers (Painsville Telegraph and Mentor Monitor) which I don't have access to, and the third just links to wkrs.org main page and not a specific page on the site that supports anything in the article. Ohio History Center in Columbus has the 1961 issues of the Mentor Monitor: if you want to save this page, I'd hoof it over there and get the WP:SIGCOV people want to see. https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84028225/holdings/ BBQboffin ( talk) 16:22, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.