- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus leaning keep. Daniel ( talk) 07:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
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- Robert Smith-Dorrien ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Justice of the Peace and militia lieutenant colonel do not confer notability. Sources are inadequate. Clarityfiend ( talk) 06:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and United Kingdom. Shellwood ( talk) 10:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now. I'm fairly confident that additional offline sources exist for the subject, but I am fully aware of
WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES, and so while I'm not in the position to find offline sources about the subject to prove my assertion, I've emailed the Berkhamsted Local History and Museum Society to ask if they have any offline sources about him. I will update once I receive a response from them, which hopefully should be soon. If I'm wrong about the existence of additional sources, then I would support a merge to a relevant article about the Smith/Dorrien-Smith/Smith-Dorrien family.
HenryTemplo (
talk)
15:36, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- So BLH&MS got back to me, and they've informed me that at least two articles exist which discuss Robert Smith-Dorrien, one by Ken Wallis in the magazine Chronicle VIII, and another about a Mrs Mary Anne Smith-Dorrien (not sure what the publication was, but I think it was Chronicle as well). Beyond that, they've said that sources are limited. I'm sticking with my keep !vote for now (obviously, I'm the article creator!) due to the existence of those 2 sources plus the ones already cited on the article, but I do think we've found ourselves in a strange situation, where we know that sources exist, but I don't have access to them (You can buy past copies of the Chronicle on their website, but I'm not in a position to do that). What does everyone else think?
HenryTemplo (
talk)
12:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get an impression of the offline sources you mentioned. What is "Chronicle VIII" magazine and who is/was Ken Wallis please? Google searches are coming up with hits but they don't seem of obvious relevance.
Rupples (
talk)
04:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- A link to the page on the BLH&MS website for the Chronicle magazine: [1]. Ken Wallis appears to be a member of the society’s committee, beyond that, I’m afraid I don’t know anything about him ( [2]). Hope this helps! HenryTemplo ( talk) 06:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get an impression of the offline sources you mentioned. What is "Chronicle VIII" magazine and who is/was Ken Wallis please? Google searches are coming up with hits but they don't seem of obvious relevance.
Rupples (
talk)
04:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- So BLH&MS got back to me, and they've informed me that at least two articles exist which discuss Robert Smith-Dorrien, one by Ken Wallis in the magazine Chronicle VIII, and another about a Mrs Mary Anne Smith-Dorrien (not sure what the publication was, but I think it was Chronicle as well). Beyond that, they've said that sources are limited. I'm sticking with my keep !vote for now (obviously, I'm the article creator!) due to the existence of those 2 sources plus the ones already cited on the article, but I do think we've found ourselves in a strange situation, where we know that sources exist, but I don't have access to them (You can buy past copies of the Chronicle on their website, but I'm not in a position to do that). What does everyone else think?
HenryTemplo (
talk)
12:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep There are several lengthy obituaries accessible through Newspapers.com. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 ( talk) 04:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
- Neutral. There's an obituary and coverage of his funeral in the Hertfordshire Mercury. He seems to have been highly thought of and respected locally and by his military connections. There are mentions of the amount left in his will in local newspapers in other areas where he had family. Some of his family connections are clearly notable.
- The local history society sources I take to be reliable. There doesn't appear to be anything in Wikipedia notabilty policy placing restrictions on writing articles about people where coverage is limited to local sources. The relevant guideline is WP:BASIC or the GNG as he doesn't appear to fall under any of the additional criteria in Wikipedia:Notability (people). Also, Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons WP:NOTNEWS and he is remembered by local historians.
- I'm not getting a sense of notability from the subject's lead paragraph as to achievement or why he should be remembered beyond Berkhamstead, but maybe that's not relevant. Don't see any deciding factor to keep or delete but what sources there are seem limited. If not kept as a separate article, aspects of his life could be covered within articles on his more notable relatives. Rupples ( talk) 16:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 09:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 14:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Keep I think there is just enough to pass WP:GNG with the sources given + a number of other smaller mentions in the newspapers. Note I have open accessed (clipped) the newspapers.com sources so everyone can now access. If alive or recently dead maybe not but I give a bit more leniency to historic figures. KylieTastic ( talk) 15:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus leaning keep. Daniel ( talk) 07:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Robert Smith-Dorrien ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Justice of the Peace and militia lieutenant colonel do not confer notability. Sources are inadequate. Clarityfiend ( talk) 06:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and United Kingdom. Shellwood ( talk) 10:53, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now. I'm fairly confident that additional offline sources exist for the subject, but I am fully aware of
WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES, and so while I'm not in the position to find offline sources about the subject to prove my assertion, I've emailed the Berkhamsted Local History and Museum Society to ask if they have any offline sources about him. I will update once I receive a response from them, which hopefully should be soon. If I'm wrong about the existence of additional sources, then I would support a merge to a relevant article about the Smith/Dorrien-Smith/Smith-Dorrien family.
HenryTemplo (
talk)
15:36, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- So BLH&MS got back to me, and they've informed me that at least two articles exist which discuss Robert Smith-Dorrien, one by Ken Wallis in the magazine Chronicle VIII, and another about a Mrs Mary Anne Smith-Dorrien (not sure what the publication was, but I think it was Chronicle as well). Beyond that, they've said that sources are limited. I'm sticking with my keep !vote for now (obviously, I'm the article creator!) due to the existence of those 2 sources plus the ones already cited on the article, but I do think we've found ourselves in a strange situation, where we know that sources exist, but I don't have access to them (You can buy past copies of the Chronicle on their website, but I'm not in a position to do that). What does everyone else think?
HenryTemplo (
talk)
12:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get an impression of the offline sources you mentioned. What is "Chronicle VIII" magazine and who is/was Ken Wallis please? Google searches are coming up with hits but they don't seem of obvious relevance.
Rupples (
talk)
04:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- A link to the page on the BLH&MS website for the Chronicle magazine: [1]. Ken Wallis appears to be a member of the society’s committee, beyond that, I’m afraid I don’t know anything about him ( [2]). Hope this helps! HenryTemplo ( talk) 06:57, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- I'm trying to get an impression of the offline sources you mentioned. What is "Chronicle VIII" magazine and who is/was Ken Wallis please? Google searches are coming up with hits but they don't seem of obvious relevance.
Rupples (
talk)
04:16, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
- So BLH&MS got back to me, and they've informed me that at least two articles exist which discuss Robert Smith-Dorrien, one by Ken Wallis in the magazine Chronicle VIII, and another about a Mrs Mary Anne Smith-Dorrien (not sure what the publication was, but I think it was Chronicle as well). Beyond that, they've said that sources are limited. I'm sticking with my keep !vote for now (obviously, I'm the article creator!) due to the existence of those 2 sources plus the ones already cited on the article, but I do think we've found ourselves in a strange situation, where we know that sources exist, but I don't have access to them (You can buy past copies of the Chronicle on their website, but I'm not in a position to do that). What does everyone else think?
HenryTemplo (
talk)
12:54, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep There are several lengthy obituaries accessible through Newspapers.com. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 ( talk) 04:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
- Neutral. There's an obituary and coverage of his funeral in the Hertfordshire Mercury. He seems to have been highly thought of and respected locally and by his military connections. There are mentions of the amount left in his will in local newspapers in other areas where he had family. Some of his family connections are clearly notable.
- The local history society sources I take to be reliable. There doesn't appear to be anything in Wikipedia notabilty policy placing restrictions on writing articles about people where coverage is limited to local sources. The relevant guideline is WP:BASIC or the GNG as he doesn't appear to fall under any of the additional criteria in Wikipedia:Notability (people). Also, Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons WP:NOTNEWS and he is remembered by local historians.
- I'm not getting a sense of notability from the subject's lead paragraph as to achievement or why he should be remembered beyond Berkhamstead, but maybe that's not relevant. Don't see any deciding factor to keep or delete but what sources there are seem limited. If not kept as a separate article, aspects of his life could be covered within articles on his more notable relatives. Rupples ( talk) 16:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 09:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 14:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Keep I think there is just enough to pass WP:GNG with the sources given + a number of other smaller mentions in the newspapers. Note I have open accessed (clipped) the newspapers.com sources so everyone can now access. If alive or recently dead maybe not but I give a bit more leniency to historic figures. KylieTastic ( talk) 15:03, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.