The result was delete. The consensus of editors making arguments based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines regarding verifiability, notability, reliable sourcing, and biographies of living persons is clear: the quantity and quality of reliable secondary source coverage is insufficient to justify an article currently. — Scien tizzle 16:11, 14 May 2010 (UTC) reply
I noticed this article because Mr. Zubaty himself has been busily creating links to it from other articles. When I read it, though, his chief claims to notability seem to be three self-published books and a podcast, and when I performed a google news search, I couldn't find any reliable, independent sources writing about his importance. In my opinion, there is not enough verifiable information currently available to write an article about this subject. FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 11:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
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Paul Elam Editor-in-Chief Men's News Daily —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.88.191 ( talk) 18:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Tim Baehr Publisher, Menletter.org My newsletter, Menletter.org, contains a review of one of Rich Zubaty's books at http://menletter.org/articles/What Men Know That Women Don't.htm. His is a voice many may find irritating, and the content of his thoughts may not be universally accepted. I see these as no reason to delete his bio. Menletter is in its ninth year of publication. Menletter ( talk) 18:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Quite frankly I find this attempt to censor Zubaty absurd. This is a feminist trying to censor a men's rights activist on the grounds that he has little presence in the corporate press - which is also a group that he opposes. Men's rights are largely ignored by the press, are we going to make Wikipedia also a means of suppressing things that are not deemed politically correct by feminists and the corporate world? Outrageous!! -- Cathbard ( talk) 03:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE Rich Zubatay is an independent thinker who deserves to be heard, not censored. So many voices like Rich's have been censored, mainly because they aren't mainstream. Well, many people are tired of mainstream. I cannot believe the lengths some people will go to muzzle the voices of people they don't agree with. His thoughts on the corporatization of America has been very enlightening, particularly in "Corporate Vampires". Are encourage everyone to check out his books on Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/002-8815806-6782464?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=Rich+Zubaty&Go.x=11&Go.y=12). But here is the bottom line: many other people have been published on Wikipedia for contributing much less than Rich Zubatay. Mandel17 ( talk) 22:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 66.241.4.20 ( talk) 22:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandel17 ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE or DO... Rich, it's just wikipedia. my two cents: i read rich's book 'what men know.." during the lowest point of my life, the great divorce fiasco of '03. i do not exaggerate when i say his book not only enlightened me and provided salve to my torment, his book significantly contributed to my sanity, reatining my personal freedom and eventual recovery from the court-societal humiliation and pillaging of a man. lastly, what is FisherQueen infering by her moniker? that she's the female version of mythical wounded king who's kindgom suffers as he does? in mythology or reality women can just swap out a feminine archetype for a male despite the fact that the myth's, or reality's, male hero is the essence to begin with? men have built our modern world, because they were men. women did not because they are not capable of, or they would have. later rich! suck it, wikipedia! unsigned —Preceding comment added by User:130.76.32.167 ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Please DO NOT DELETE I have known Rich for over ten years and have appreciated his books, video's and podcasts. His #3 podcast is an absolute classic in MRM and a critical view of the past 40 years of American History. Rich is often quoted by other men's rights activists and is well respected in the movement. He's our Fisher King User:QIM —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC). reply
DO NOT DELETE. While it is clear that Mr. Zubaty must stop editing inappropriately, it seems equally clear that his is a noteworthy voice in the men's movement and that he is deserving of an article. The outpouring of endorsements on this page lead me to conclude that, while this article needs work, it should remain.
Ebikeguy (
talk)
18:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Mr Zubaty is widely read and on a personal note his writtings have influenced my thinking in a number of areas,his writing is clear his arguments well thought out and well referenced for source. If censorship like this is allowed to continue then wikipedia will have failed in its object to be an open source of information and beome the site of group think that so many accuse it of being. Mr Zubaty has written several books and articles,and the article about him as far as Ican tell is factually accurate,leave it alone! Peter318200 ( talk) 10:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC) reply
MORE LINKS
have any of you taken a gander at FisherQueen's wiki page thingy?! what a horror show. rich and co., screw this wiki crap. if people like FisherQueen (yes, i'm judging) are responsible for administering this site and it's content, why would you want to be associated with it?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 ( talk) 20:20, 9 May 2010 (UTC) get a load of this wiki-message: "If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes." reply
why i "came here" wiki is none of your damn business... majority vote? oh, i see, if the reason must meet some effing guideline to post on this stupid, nonsensical lesbian feminazi site. EFF YOU WIKIPEDIA! ! ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 ( talk) 20:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE None of this NOTABILITY business is as cut and dried as Fisherqueen would have us believe. “A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.”
These are the wiki criterion for notability.
"A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]"
The Zubaty article has provided you three in-depth references by independent sources: two book reviews and one personal interview. Plus he's been on WGN radio twice, BBC TV, the Montel Williams TV show, and hundreds more electronic media shows. And then there are his hundred hours of podcasts and foreign media appearances, like Australian Broadcasting Company TV, CFRB Toronto and literally hundreds more, most of them pre-computer and pre-google, so you don't have any handy dandy references to those... do you? I read an in-depth article about him in about 1994 or 1995 in the Chicago Sun-Times and I cannot find that in a Sun-Times site search. I saw him on Chicago Tribune TV, CLTV, around the same time, and find nothing of that via google. Just because it's not on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Zubaty certainly meets this criterion.
Another criterion for notability is: "2.The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field.[7]"
You can see from the outpouring of support that Zubaty has made a recognized contribution to his field that has endured for 20 years. He has an international following despite the fact that he has been an anti-corporate crusader, particularly critical of corporate media. Have you NO idea what that means? That means academia and corporate media WON'T give him a platform. Just like Noam Chomsky. But Zubaty doesn't get by teaching linguistics at MIT to pay his bills. He advocates full time for men and against corporations and war.
Zubaty meets this criterion.
Then we have: Academics Main page: Wikipedia:Notability (academics) Many scientists, researchers, philosophers and other scholars (collectively referred to as "academics" for convenience) are notably INFLUENTIAL IN THE WORLD OF IDEAS without their biographies being the subject of secondary sources.
Rich Zubaty is an original thinker who has brought new memes into play: Men are not the oppressors of women, women are not morally superior to men, men are better at relationships than women, women are more materialistic than men, and dozens more. He is NOTABLE as an ACADEMIC who did not bow to political correctness to hang onto his job. And he STILL has secondary sources to attest to his notability.
Zubaty clearly meets this criterion.
opinion makers: 2.Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
That is clear from all the postings of support which represent a tiny slice of his readership. His books have been selling on amazon.com for ten years.
Zubaty meets this criterion too.
There is also a wiki criterion I ran across but cannot re-find that said just because someone is famous doesn’t mean they have done something. Zubaty is not famous. But he has done something. He is is notable for his original contributions to revealing the societal prejudices against a despised and demonized class of underlings – men.
And then let's look at this. Here is a person who did one thing, in 1967, spent the time since in and out of mental institutions, and has NO references whatsoever, but no one is putting flags on her article or hounding her about notability. OH...but she's a feminist. How precious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulamith_Firestone
Is wikipedia just a politically correct dumpster for forty-year-old bread? 186.16.7.3 ( talk) 01:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Beeblebrox: Please tell us exactly what you mean by, "if those sources were actually being used to flesh out the article" ... and we will do that. Whatever it is. Can you refer us to a particular example page where this kind of "fleshing out" is being done? What it looks like? We're new at this. We don't get it. We need some guidance.
Here are more online pages with mentions of Rich Zubaty, from other wikipedia articles to the Wall Street Journal to third party podcast rebroadcasters and feminist blogs. How do we use these in his article?:
Sterling Institute of relationship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Institute_of_Relationships#cite_note-zubaty-4
Wall Street Journal mention of Zubaty's Imipeach Bush impeach-ins: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110003975
The Harvard Crimson: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1995/7/25/take-back-the-penis-rally-held/
book review: http://lionwiki.taoriver.net/cgi-bin/wiki/WhatMenKnowThatWomenDont
book review http://fathersforlife.org/sex_politics_10.htm
third party podcast directory: http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Social-Sciences/Current-Events/The-Rude-Guy-Podcast/16854
Here is a posting of an article by Rich Zubaty on a feminist web site/blog. What do we do with it? How do we use it to flesh out his page. http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/41433/
Beeblebrox. Is this the KIND of thing you mean????? 194.154.216.94 ( talk) 18:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
In What Men Know That Women Don’t Rich Zubaty made the observation that we live in a world that appears to be run by men but feels like it's run by women, because the men who run it promulgate female values, female memes. [1] Our schools, churches, government, and businesses are all female friendly institutions, downright harmful to males. These sell-out men, garbed in female values, he called “manholes”. [2]And then he offered countervailing memes. In an era when men were demonized, women were glorified, and corporations were lionized he made the case that: Men are good. Women are not morally superior to men. [3]Corporations are bad. Men are not the oppressors of women. [4] Men are the protectors and providers for women. [5] If women have the right to equal access to jobs, then fathers have the right to equal treatment as parents. Women are not smarter than men. Women are more analytical than men. [6]Men are more skilled at relationships than women. [7]Men are more intuitive than women. [8]Women are more materialistic than men. Men are more spiritual than women. [9]Men have deeper feelings than women. Feminism was the biggest scab labor movement in history and the death knell of both the union movement and the grassroots sixties revolt. We live in a corporatocracy where corporations rule, and democracy has become emasculated. Feminists are corporate whores. [10]Feminism killed leftist politics in America by emphasizing social issues over economic issues.
194.154.216.94 ( talk) 18:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
More evidence on notability
A Tug-of-War Over Custody
Fathers Deprived of Their Rights In America's `Covert Matriarchy'
Click here for complete article
Author: Rich Zubaty
Date: October 29, 1994
Publication: Chicago Sun-Times
Page: 18
Word Count: 785
Excerpt:
The Unlawful Visitation Interference Law was intended to diminish conflict between
divorced parents who share custody of their children. It also frees parents from the
expense of going back into divorce courts to straighten out visitation disputes. Some
charge, however, that it is being misused to harass ex-spouses...
................
http://www.fact.on.ca/news/old/nw951225.htm
The following article was syndicated in over 50 major newspapers.
DOES GOVERNMENT DRIVE FATHERS AWAY?
By Stuart A. Miller and Rich Zubaty, Washington Times, National Weekly Edition, December 25-31, 1995, page 30
85% of prisoners, 78% of high school dropouts, 82% of teenage girls who become pregnant, the majority of drug and alcohol abusers -- all come from single-mother-headed households. Less than 1% of any of these categories come from single-father-headed households. This seems to indicate that the problems children encounter are not related to single-parent households, but are related specifically to single-mother-headed households. So, should we blame the mothers or the fathers? Perhaps, neither... --
Cathbard (
talk)
05:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Double Standards
Once again. Here are the FACTS on wiki notability. Not FisherQueens mere interpretation that Zubaty is no more notable than her. Maybe she SHOULD have a page. That has nothing to do with whether Zubaty does or not.
This notability guideline for biographies[2] is NOT policy;
A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is NOT conclusive proof that a subject should not be included;
Academics
Shortcuts:
WP:ACADEMIC
WP:PROF
WP:TEACH
Main page: Wikipedia:Notability (academics)
Many scientists, researchers, philosophers and other scholars (collectively referred to as "academics" for convenience) are notably influential in the world of ideas WITHOUT their biographies being the subject of secondary sources.
Rich Zubaty is a philosopher. A meme-inventor and -spreader. His ideas stand for who he is and when people talk about whether women are morally superior to men, or men are NOT the oppressors of women, even if the DON'T mention his name, they are mentioning him. They are metioning his memes. Bill Maher, for one, has stolen memes directly out of Surviving the Feminization of America and used them on his TV shows without accredidation.
Zubaty is notable.
2.The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
We already liisted all the dozens of memes for which he is notable on the Zubaty page and they got erased. we are not wasting our time listing them again.
--
Cathbard (
talk)
18:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Do Not Delete I was involved in the publishing of Transitions, the newsletter of the National Coalition For Men (ncfm.org) for over 10 years, including 4 years as chief editor. Some of our past issues are archived at (
http://www.californiamenscenters.org/transitionsbrown.html). NCFM is an educational organization that examines discrimination against men and boys. I can assure you that Rich Zubaty is notable in the field of men's issues. As evidence of this, we printed an excerpt of his book "What Men Know That Women Don't" in the Nov/Dec 2000 issue of Transitions. We printed a review of his book "The Corporate Cult" in the March/April 2002 issue, and a news article about his internet podcast in the Jan/Feb 2006 issue.
Wikipedia should consider that the field of men's rights does not get a lot of attention, for various political reasons. That Zubaty was able to earn the list of references that have been provided in this discussion should be seen as a noteworthy accomplishment. Many of the references are from web sites related to men's issues, but many are not, including the WSJ and The Harvard Crimson. As men's issues is still a growing field, many of our references will come from sources with an interest in the subject.
For verifiability, all you need to do is go to Amazon and see that his books are for sale. The content of Zubaty's writing is not in question; the article simply states that he wrote those books. They are available and the sales have not been insignificant.
The article does need to be improved, and this can be done once this case is settled.
Jwleath (
talk)
03:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Response on behalf of Rich Rubaty
RE: "when people talk about whether women are morally superior to men, or men are NOT the oppressors of women, even if they DON'T mention his name, they are mentioning him," but people have been having those conversations for hundreds of years or more. (says FisherQueen)
OK, time for Fisher Queen to ACTUALLY CITE SOMETHING instead of pontificating. Where exactly, in the hundreds of years of history before Rich Zubaty, does anyone at all talk about how women are not morally superior to men? Or men are not the oppressors of women? Where? Zubaty introduced these memes 20 years ago when merely saying something favorable about men was considered an assault on women. When most academics were cowed by political correctness and fear of getting fired for speaking out on things like equal rights for men: in fathering, in healthcare, in life and death.
We are not fooled by your posturing. Some high level administrator has decided you don't want his page on Wikipedia and now you are lurching about digging up reasons to exclude him, even though your guidelines say that philosophers, like Zubaty, people who GENERATE IDEAS, have a much LOWER threshold of being expected to have been quoted in mass media.
There is a massive industry with tens of thousands of employees and publications on thousands of campuses world wide called Women's Studies. They are always hungry for new material over which to churn out new reviews, and claim they got “published”. Men's studies can, at most, be found on a handful of campuses. THAT has to be taken into consideration. Men are not less important than women. But no one makes a career out of men’s studies. There is not a mountain of literature. One does it for the passions behind the issues. Getting a handful of mentions is an achievement in that field. Who else do you know who got any publicity at all?
We gave you links to the Wall Street Journal. How bout this?
From the WSJ Opinion Archives
by JAMES TARANTO Friday, September 5, 2003 4:06 P.M. EDT
Zubaty's So Batty
At an "impeach-in" yesterday in Ithaca, N.Y., "the strumming of author Rich Zubaty's guitar floated in front of See Spot Community Arts Space, accompanying lyrics such as 'There was a president lying to me' and 'We want our country back,' " reports the Cornell Daily Sun....
Zubaty tells the Sun that "we have the worst president in a couple of hundred years,"...
This Zubaty guy is a real piece of work: The Sun notes that he is the author of two books, "Your Brain Is Not Your Own" and "The Corporate Cult." The paper, however, misses another Zubaty tome, "What Men Know That Women Don't," described on his Web site as "the book that unshames men and frees your brainwaves for recovery from Feminism." .....
Plus...we gave you links to The Harvard Crimson, and Cornell Sun (2003 Impeach Bush), where he has been talked ABOUT, NOT where he has been published. You ignored them. He’s been interviewed on over 200 radio shows in Chicago, Toronto, New York, San Francisco, Tampa, Sydney, Perth, Seattle, and hundreds of smaller stations that receive syndicated programming. Plus TV: BBC, CLTV Chicago, ABC TV in San Francisco. Millions of people have heard him interviewed about his ideas. Millions! Some of those shows were taped, but few if any were transcribed into transcripts that can be found on the internet. So what?
This is a whitewash. We keep giving you evidence. You keep moving the goalposts. The only so-called editor who has actually helped out and tried to make things better is Dirk Beetstra. Nobly so because some of Zubaty’s rabid respondents took a bite out of him early on. But now HE apparently is getting browbeat by somebody in the inner circle. But no one else helps. They just give us links. Fuck links.
Maybe the time has come for you to prove us wrong. For the burden of proof to be on YOU that he is NOT notable. This is a witch hunt, only this time the witches are doing the hunting.
And what you don't understand, and what Zubaty's supporters who are writing into this deletion page DO understand, is that this is exactly what Zubaty writes his books about. How after a creative explosion of virile positive male energy launches virtually every civilization and institution, there come the petty foggers and bean counters and formulaic thinkers and rule keepers, and they keep that institution going far past the point of it being useless to everybody. If wikipedia is just a place to go to get watered down information that is available at other places on the web, then why go? You are destroying your own institution by refusing to adhere to your fundamental principle. To wit: Failure to meet these criteria is NOT conclusive proof that a subject should not be included.
Understandably you need other and more evidence, and that’s just what we’ve provided, over and over and over again. Millions of people have heard his memes. We’ve told you where. From him, and from those like Bill Maher who stole memes directly from him and will never admit that because then they would have to compensate him. And even, to Zubaty’s undying shame and embarrassment, his name and men’s activism was mentioned by Rush Limbaugh and reached a few million ears within five minutes. Ideas cannot be copyrighted. Cannot be owned. They are stolen, and passed around, and then they influence millions of people. But you don’t care about that because you are not creative people. You have made up your mind to exclude him and you are just trying to find a plausible excuse.
I asked him about this. He wrote back: “That’s OK. I was pissed off at first but now I don’t care. Wikipedia is not an enlightened publication like I thought it was. Those are not the kind of people I want to keep company with. I appreciate all the folks who have tried to help, I really do, but it’s OK if they just delete my page. I would rather that people who google-search my name go directly to my web page. And the hell with wikipedia. It’s a red herring. A detour into nowhere. If they can’t make a judgment call to provide some rare and unusual forms of information that are not already provided somewhere else on the net, then what are they for? Who cares?” 194.154.216.90 ( talk) 08:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Kaye, Miranda; Tolmie, Julia, "Discoursing Dads: The Rhetorical Devices of Fathers' Rights Groups", Melbourne University Law Review, April 1998
Klein, Ellen R., Undressing feminism: A philosophical exposé, (Series: Paragon Issues in Philosophy), Paragon House, 2002. ISBN1557788111
Boyd, Susan B. et al.. Reaction and resistance: feminism, law, and social change, University of British Columbia Press, 2007. ISBN077481411X
Ducat, Stephen, The wimp factor: gender gaps, holy wars, and the politics of anxious masculinity, Beacon Press, 2004. ISBN 0807043443
Parke, Ross D. and Brott, Armin A. Throwaway dads: the myths and barriers that keep men from being the fathers, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1999.
Culture Wars (magazine), "Selling Contempt", Ultramontane Associates/ American Center for Law and Justice, Vol. 20, 2000.
I also have subscription access to the Highbeam archives. Zubaty appeared briefly on the BBC2 programme Counterblast in January 2000:
"After 15 minutes, however, he was starting to run out of steam. He'd already called on the services of a like-minded American with the unlikely name of Rich Zubaty, described simply as "an author", who provided the usual array of meaningless statistics that these occasions demand. "Did you know that 19 out of every 20 people who die on the job are men?" Rich announced, at which George could only shake his head and mutter "Middle-class dykes", in a distracted sort of way."
(Preston, John, "Blast those dungarees", Sunday Telegraph, 30 January 2000)
I'm neutral as to whether the above is enough to establish notability, but at least it's something concrete to consider, and it's probably the limit to what can be found in reliable sources. Voceditenore ( talk) 12:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Reply to: Reply. Actually, I can provide a reference for it being a a bunch of crock.;-) See the reference by Boyd, Susan B. et al. below, where she lists his book amongst others derivative of the ideas expressed in the original works in the area dating back to the 1970s. Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
In the Boyd, Susan B. book referenced by Voceditnore, word-searched for “moral superiority”, Zubaty’s meme, there is NO reference. NONE. Have a look.
Let’s put the smugness on hold Boing! said Zebedee. You’ve crossed over now into being just flat out liars. This is a whitewash.
The ONLY place I have ever heard the moral superiority of women questioned besides Zubaty was when private England tortured those Abu Ghraib prisoners and Ellen Goodman said she had: always believed in the moral superiority of women up until that moment.
The real tyranny is feminism. Your bald attempts to control information are precisely the reason Zubaty sells books world wide and precisely why he should be included in wikipedia. If wikipedia has any balls that is. If wikipedia is about spreading information and not simply just a politicized tool of powerful institutions like feminism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.170.227 ( talk) 18:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
I ask that the editors commenting here focus on the content of the article, not on the character of contributors. Cunard ( talk) 06:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Dear Ms. Zebedee, it seems you have missed the point entirely. It’s clear that the claim made was that: Voceditenore lied by saying that Zubaty’s original meme appeared in a book where it did not appear at all. Not at all. Not once. That was the lie. And nobody amongst the so-called wiki editors even bothered to check the lie. Thank goodness one of us dumb novices did. Then Fisherqueen took the discussion further afield by claiming Boyd’s mention of Zubaty was minor anyway. Yes, like Rousseau and Kant and even Tolstoy before him, Zubaty discussed the deficiencies of female morality. But he took it out of 17th century drawing room intrigues and updated it dead center to strident feminist America 1993. And he gave it a name. He didn’t call it a large fish that breathes air and sometimes sports a pale hue. He called it a “White Whale”. A meme! He said “Women are not morally superior to men” in absolutely clear unacademic populist American English. That’s what a meme is. Not merely an idea. But a concise FORMULATION of an idea. A soundbite for your mind. That is one of his dozen or more original philosophic contributions. And THAT was the entire point we were trying to make. He IS an original thinker and people like you can’t even keep up with his thoughts. No wonder we can’t find any quotes!
And in response to DGG. Zubaty has had books in hundreds of libraries but most of them have been stolen. Removed from the system. Denver public library had four copies at the SAME time the demand was so high in the mid 1990s. In an age of feminist harpy saboteurs it is no wonder his books cannot be publicly found. You people are grasping at straws to support an opinion you have held for years. That all men are assholes and you have to stop them any way you can. If you are wikipedia editors then wikipedia is doomed. You are worried about smoke detectors while your airliner is going down in flames. Time for new rules for editors. No harpies. No closed minds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Loot ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 14 May 2010
The result was delete. The consensus of editors making arguments based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines regarding verifiability, notability, reliable sourcing, and biographies of living persons is clear: the quantity and quality of reliable secondary source coverage is insufficient to justify an article currently. — Scien tizzle 16:11, 14 May 2010 (UTC) reply
I noticed this article because Mr. Zubaty himself has been busily creating links to it from other articles. When I read it, though, his chief claims to notability seem to be three self-published books and a podcast, and when I performed a google news search, I couldn't find any reliable, independent sources writing about his importance. In my opinion, there is not enough verifiable information currently available to write an article about this subject. FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 11:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
![]() | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
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Paul Elam Editor-in-Chief Men's News Daily —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.88.191 ( talk) 18:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Tim Baehr Publisher, Menletter.org My newsletter, Menletter.org, contains a review of one of Rich Zubaty's books at http://menletter.org/articles/What Men Know That Women Don't.htm. His is a voice many may find irritating, and the content of his thoughts may not be universally accepted. I see these as no reason to delete his bio. Menletter is in its ninth year of publication. Menletter ( talk) 18:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Quite frankly I find this attempt to censor Zubaty absurd. This is a feminist trying to censor a men's rights activist on the grounds that he has little presence in the corporate press - which is also a group that he opposes. Men's rights are largely ignored by the press, are we going to make Wikipedia also a means of suppressing things that are not deemed politically correct by feminists and the corporate world? Outrageous!! -- Cathbard ( talk) 03:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE Rich Zubatay is an independent thinker who deserves to be heard, not censored. So many voices like Rich's have been censored, mainly because they aren't mainstream. Well, many people are tired of mainstream. I cannot believe the lengths some people will go to muzzle the voices of people they don't agree with. His thoughts on the corporatization of America has been very enlightening, particularly in "Corporate Vampires". Are encourage everyone to check out his books on Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/002-8815806-6782464?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=Rich+Zubaty&Go.x=11&Go.y=12). But here is the bottom line: many other people have been published on Wikipedia for contributing much less than Rich Zubatay. Mandel17 ( talk) 22:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 66.241.4.20 ( talk) 22:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandel17 ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE or DO... Rich, it's just wikipedia. my two cents: i read rich's book 'what men know.." during the lowest point of my life, the great divorce fiasco of '03. i do not exaggerate when i say his book not only enlightened me and provided salve to my torment, his book significantly contributed to my sanity, reatining my personal freedom and eventual recovery from the court-societal humiliation and pillaging of a man. lastly, what is FisherQueen infering by her moniker? that she's the female version of mythical wounded king who's kindgom suffers as he does? in mythology or reality women can just swap out a feminine archetype for a male despite the fact that the myth's, or reality's, male hero is the essence to begin with? men have built our modern world, because they were men. women did not because they are not capable of, or they would have. later rich! suck it, wikipedia! unsigned —Preceding comment added by User:130.76.32.167 ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Please DO NOT DELETE I have known Rich for over ten years and have appreciated his books, video's and podcasts. His #3 podcast is an absolute classic in MRM and a critical view of the past 40 years of American History. Rich is often quoted by other men's rights activists and is well respected in the movement. He's our Fisher King User:QIM —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC). reply
DO NOT DELETE. While it is clear that Mr. Zubaty must stop editing inappropriately, it seems equally clear that his is a noteworthy voice in the men's movement and that he is deserving of an article. The outpouring of endorsements on this page lead me to conclude that, while this article needs work, it should remain.
Ebikeguy (
talk)
18:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Mr Zubaty is widely read and on a personal note his writtings have influenced my thinking in a number of areas,his writing is clear his arguments well thought out and well referenced for source. If censorship like this is allowed to continue then wikipedia will have failed in its object to be an open source of information and beome the site of group think that so many accuse it of being. Mr Zubaty has written several books and articles,and the article about him as far as Ican tell is factually accurate,leave it alone! Peter318200 ( talk) 10:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC) reply
MORE LINKS
have any of you taken a gander at FisherQueen's wiki page thingy?! what a horror show. rich and co., screw this wiki crap. if people like FisherQueen (yes, i'm judging) are responsible for administering this site and it's content, why would you want to be associated with it?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 ( talk) 20:20, 9 May 2010 (UTC) get a load of this wiki-message: "If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes." reply
why i "came here" wiki is none of your damn business... majority vote? oh, i see, if the reason must meet some effing guideline to post on this stupid, nonsensical lesbian feminazi site. EFF YOU WIKIPEDIA! ! ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.32.167 ( talk) 20:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC) reply
DO NOT DELETE None of this NOTABILITY business is as cut and dried as Fisherqueen would have us believe. “A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.”
These are the wiki criterion for notability.
"A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject.[5]"
The Zubaty article has provided you three in-depth references by independent sources: two book reviews and one personal interview. Plus he's been on WGN radio twice, BBC TV, the Montel Williams TV show, and hundreds more electronic media shows. And then there are his hundred hours of podcasts and foreign media appearances, like Australian Broadcasting Company TV, CFRB Toronto and literally hundreds more, most of them pre-computer and pre-google, so you don't have any handy dandy references to those... do you? I read an in-depth article about him in about 1994 or 1995 in the Chicago Sun-Times and I cannot find that in a Sun-Times site search. I saw him on Chicago Tribune TV, CLTV, around the same time, and find nothing of that via google. Just because it's not on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Zubaty certainly meets this criterion.
Another criterion for notability is: "2.The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field.[7]"
You can see from the outpouring of support that Zubaty has made a recognized contribution to his field that has endured for 20 years. He has an international following despite the fact that he has been an anti-corporate crusader, particularly critical of corporate media. Have you NO idea what that means? That means academia and corporate media WON'T give him a platform. Just like Noam Chomsky. But Zubaty doesn't get by teaching linguistics at MIT to pay his bills. He advocates full time for men and against corporations and war.
Zubaty meets this criterion.
Then we have: Academics Main page: Wikipedia:Notability (academics) Many scientists, researchers, philosophers and other scholars (collectively referred to as "academics" for convenience) are notably INFLUENTIAL IN THE WORLD OF IDEAS without their biographies being the subject of secondary sources.
Rich Zubaty is an original thinker who has brought new memes into play: Men are not the oppressors of women, women are not morally superior to men, men are better at relationships than women, women are more materialistic than men, and dozens more. He is NOTABLE as an ACADEMIC who did not bow to political correctness to hang onto his job. And he STILL has secondary sources to attest to his notability.
Zubaty clearly meets this criterion.
opinion makers: 2.Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following.
That is clear from all the postings of support which represent a tiny slice of his readership. His books have been selling on amazon.com for ten years.
Zubaty meets this criterion too.
There is also a wiki criterion I ran across but cannot re-find that said just because someone is famous doesn’t mean they have done something. Zubaty is not famous. But he has done something. He is is notable for his original contributions to revealing the societal prejudices against a despised and demonized class of underlings – men.
And then let's look at this. Here is a person who did one thing, in 1967, spent the time since in and out of mental institutions, and has NO references whatsoever, but no one is putting flags on her article or hounding her about notability. OH...but she's a feminist. How precious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulamith_Firestone
Is wikipedia just a politically correct dumpster for forty-year-old bread? 186.16.7.3 ( talk) 01:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Beeblebrox: Please tell us exactly what you mean by, "if those sources were actually being used to flesh out the article" ... and we will do that. Whatever it is. Can you refer us to a particular example page where this kind of "fleshing out" is being done? What it looks like? We're new at this. We don't get it. We need some guidance.
Here are more online pages with mentions of Rich Zubaty, from other wikipedia articles to the Wall Street Journal to third party podcast rebroadcasters and feminist blogs. How do we use these in his article?:
Sterling Institute of relationship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_Institute_of_Relationships#cite_note-zubaty-4
Wall Street Journal mention of Zubaty's Imipeach Bush impeach-ins: http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110003975
The Harvard Crimson: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1995/7/25/take-back-the-penis-rally-held/
book review: http://lionwiki.taoriver.net/cgi-bin/wiki/WhatMenKnowThatWomenDont
book review http://fathersforlife.org/sex_politics_10.htm
third party podcast directory: http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Social-Sciences/Current-Events/The-Rude-Guy-Podcast/16854
Here is a posting of an article by Rich Zubaty on a feminist web site/blog. What do we do with it? How do we use it to flesh out his page. http://www.alternet.org/wiretap/41433/
Beeblebrox. Is this the KIND of thing you mean????? 194.154.216.94 ( talk) 18:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
In What Men Know That Women Don’t Rich Zubaty made the observation that we live in a world that appears to be run by men but feels like it's run by women, because the men who run it promulgate female values, female memes. [1] Our schools, churches, government, and businesses are all female friendly institutions, downright harmful to males. These sell-out men, garbed in female values, he called “manholes”. [2]And then he offered countervailing memes. In an era when men were demonized, women were glorified, and corporations were lionized he made the case that: Men are good. Women are not morally superior to men. [3]Corporations are bad. Men are not the oppressors of women. [4] Men are the protectors and providers for women. [5] If women have the right to equal access to jobs, then fathers have the right to equal treatment as parents. Women are not smarter than men. Women are more analytical than men. [6]Men are more skilled at relationships than women. [7]Men are more intuitive than women. [8]Women are more materialistic than men. Men are more spiritual than women. [9]Men have deeper feelings than women. Feminism was the biggest scab labor movement in history and the death knell of both the union movement and the grassroots sixties revolt. We live in a corporatocracy where corporations rule, and democracy has become emasculated. Feminists are corporate whores. [10]Feminism killed leftist politics in America by emphasizing social issues over economic issues.
194.154.216.94 ( talk) 18:11, 11 May 2010 (UTC) reply
More evidence on notability
A Tug-of-War Over Custody
Fathers Deprived of Their Rights In America's `Covert Matriarchy'
Click here for complete article
Author: Rich Zubaty
Date: October 29, 1994
Publication: Chicago Sun-Times
Page: 18
Word Count: 785
Excerpt:
The Unlawful Visitation Interference Law was intended to diminish conflict between
divorced parents who share custody of their children. It also frees parents from the
expense of going back into divorce courts to straighten out visitation disputes. Some
charge, however, that it is being misused to harass ex-spouses...
................
http://www.fact.on.ca/news/old/nw951225.htm
The following article was syndicated in over 50 major newspapers.
DOES GOVERNMENT DRIVE FATHERS AWAY?
By Stuart A. Miller and Rich Zubaty, Washington Times, National Weekly Edition, December 25-31, 1995, page 30
85% of prisoners, 78% of high school dropouts, 82% of teenage girls who become pregnant, the majority of drug and alcohol abusers -- all come from single-mother-headed households. Less than 1% of any of these categories come from single-father-headed households. This seems to indicate that the problems children encounter are not related to single-parent households, but are related specifically to single-mother-headed households. So, should we blame the mothers or the fathers? Perhaps, neither... --
Cathbard (
talk)
05:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Double Standards
Once again. Here are the FACTS on wiki notability. Not FisherQueens mere interpretation that Zubaty is no more notable than her. Maybe she SHOULD have a page. That has nothing to do with whether Zubaty does or not.
This notability guideline for biographies[2] is NOT policy;
A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is NOT conclusive proof that a subject should not be included;
Academics
Shortcuts:
WP:ACADEMIC
WP:PROF
WP:TEACH
Main page: Wikipedia:Notability (academics)
Many scientists, researchers, philosophers and other scholars (collectively referred to as "academics" for convenience) are notably influential in the world of ideas WITHOUT their biographies being the subject of secondary sources.
Rich Zubaty is a philosopher. A meme-inventor and -spreader. His ideas stand for who he is and when people talk about whether women are morally superior to men, or men are NOT the oppressors of women, even if the DON'T mention his name, they are mentioning him. They are metioning his memes. Bill Maher, for one, has stolen memes directly out of Surviving the Feminization of America and used them on his TV shows without accredidation.
Zubaty is notable.
2.The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
We already liisted all the dozens of memes for which he is notable on the Zubaty page and they got erased. we are not wasting our time listing them again.
--
Cathbard (
talk)
18:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Do Not Delete I was involved in the publishing of Transitions, the newsletter of the National Coalition For Men (ncfm.org) for over 10 years, including 4 years as chief editor. Some of our past issues are archived at (
http://www.californiamenscenters.org/transitionsbrown.html). NCFM is an educational organization that examines discrimination against men and boys. I can assure you that Rich Zubaty is notable in the field of men's issues. As evidence of this, we printed an excerpt of his book "What Men Know That Women Don't" in the Nov/Dec 2000 issue of Transitions. We printed a review of his book "The Corporate Cult" in the March/April 2002 issue, and a news article about his internet podcast in the Jan/Feb 2006 issue.
Wikipedia should consider that the field of men's rights does not get a lot of attention, for various political reasons. That Zubaty was able to earn the list of references that have been provided in this discussion should be seen as a noteworthy accomplishment. Many of the references are from web sites related to men's issues, but many are not, including the WSJ and The Harvard Crimson. As men's issues is still a growing field, many of our references will come from sources with an interest in the subject.
For verifiability, all you need to do is go to Amazon and see that his books are for sale. The content of Zubaty's writing is not in question; the article simply states that he wrote those books. They are available and the sales have not been insignificant.
The article does need to be improved, and this can be done once this case is settled.
Jwleath (
talk)
03:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
reply
Response on behalf of Rich Rubaty
RE: "when people talk about whether women are morally superior to men, or men are NOT the oppressors of women, even if they DON'T mention his name, they are mentioning him," but people have been having those conversations for hundreds of years or more. (says FisherQueen)
OK, time for Fisher Queen to ACTUALLY CITE SOMETHING instead of pontificating. Where exactly, in the hundreds of years of history before Rich Zubaty, does anyone at all talk about how women are not morally superior to men? Or men are not the oppressors of women? Where? Zubaty introduced these memes 20 years ago when merely saying something favorable about men was considered an assault on women. When most academics were cowed by political correctness and fear of getting fired for speaking out on things like equal rights for men: in fathering, in healthcare, in life and death.
We are not fooled by your posturing. Some high level administrator has decided you don't want his page on Wikipedia and now you are lurching about digging up reasons to exclude him, even though your guidelines say that philosophers, like Zubaty, people who GENERATE IDEAS, have a much LOWER threshold of being expected to have been quoted in mass media.
There is a massive industry with tens of thousands of employees and publications on thousands of campuses world wide called Women's Studies. They are always hungry for new material over which to churn out new reviews, and claim they got “published”. Men's studies can, at most, be found on a handful of campuses. THAT has to be taken into consideration. Men are not less important than women. But no one makes a career out of men’s studies. There is not a mountain of literature. One does it for the passions behind the issues. Getting a handful of mentions is an achievement in that field. Who else do you know who got any publicity at all?
We gave you links to the Wall Street Journal. How bout this?
From the WSJ Opinion Archives
by JAMES TARANTO Friday, September 5, 2003 4:06 P.M. EDT
Zubaty's So Batty
At an "impeach-in" yesterday in Ithaca, N.Y., "the strumming of author Rich Zubaty's guitar floated in front of See Spot Community Arts Space, accompanying lyrics such as 'There was a president lying to me' and 'We want our country back,' " reports the Cornell Daily Sun....
Zubaty tells the Sun that "we have the worst president in a couple of hundred years,"...
This Zubaty guy is a real piece of work: The Sun notes that he is the author of two books, "Your Brain Is Not Your Own" and "The Corporate Cult." The paper, however, misses another Zubaty tome, "What Men Know That Women Don't," described on his Web site as "the book that unshames men and frees your brainwaves for recovery from Feminism." .....
Plus...we gave you links to The Harvard Crimson, and Cornell Sun (2003 Impeach Bush), where he has been talked ABOUT, NOT where he has been published. You ignored them. He’s been interviewed on over 200 radio shows in Chicago, Toronto, New York, San Francisco, Tampa, Sydney, Perth, Seattle, and hundreds of smaller stations that receive syndicated programming. Plus TV: BBC, CLTV Chicago, ABC TV in San Francisco. Millions of people have heard him interviewed about his ideas. Millions! Some of those shows were taped, but few if any were transcribed into transcripts that can be found on the internet. So what?
This is a whitewash. We keep giving you evidence. You keep moving the goalposts. The only so-called editor who has actually helped out and tried to make things better is Dirk Beetstra. Nobly so because some of Zubaty’s rabid respondents took a bite out of him early on. But now HE apparently is getting browbeat by somebody in the inner circle. But no one else helps. They just give us links. Fuck links.
Maybe the time has come for you to prove us wrong. For the burden of proof to be on YOU that he is NOT notable. This is a witch hunt, only this time the witches are doing the hunting.
And what you don't understand, and what Zubaty's supporters who are writing into this deletion page DO understand, is that this is exactly what Zubaty writes his books about. How after a creative explosion of virile positive male energy launches virtually every civilization and institution, there come the petty foggers and bean counters and formulaic thinkers and rule keepers, and they keep that institution going far past the point of it being useless to everybody. If wikipedia is just a place to go to get watered down information that is available at other places on the web, then why go? You are destroying your own institution by refusing to adhere to your fundamental principle. To wit: Failure to meet these criteria is NOT conclusive proof that a subject should not be included.
Understandably you need other and more evidence, and that’s just what we’ve provided, over and over and over again. Millions of people have heard his memes. We’ve told you where. From him, and from those like Bill Maher who stole memes directly from him and will never admit that because then they would have to compensate him. And even, to Zubaty’s undying shame and embarrassment, his name and men’s activism was mentioned by Rush Limbaugh and reached a few million ears within five minutes. Ideas cannot be copyrighted. Cannot be owned. They are stolen, and passed around, and then they influence millions of people. But you don’t care about that because you are not creative people. You have made up your mind to exclude him and you are just trying to find a plausible excuse.
I asked him about this. He wrote back: “That’s OK. I was pissed off at first but now I don’t care. Wikipedia is not an enlightened publication like I thought it was. Those are not the kind of people I want to keep company with. I appreciate all the folks who have tried to help, I really do, but it’s OK if they just delete my page. I would rather that people who google-search my name go directly to my web page. And the hell with wikipedia. It’s a red herring. A detour into nowhere. If they can’t make a judgment call to provide some rare and unusual forms of information that are not already provided somewhere else on the net, then what are they for? Who cares?” 194.154.216.90 ( talk) 08:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Kaye, Miranda; Tolmie, Julia, "Discoursing Dads: The Rhetorical Devices of Fathers' Rights Groups", Melbourne University Law Review, April 1998
Klein, Ellen R., Undressing feminism: A philosophical exposé, (Series: Paragon Issues in Philosophy), Paragon House, 2002. ISBN1557788111
Boyd, Susan B. et al.. Reaction and resistance: feminism, law, and social change, University of British Columbia Press, 2007. ISBN077481411X
Ducat, Stephen, The wimp factor: gender gaps, holy wars, and the politics of anxious masculinity, Beacon Press, 2004. ISBN 0807043443
Parke, Ross D. and Brott, Armin A. Throwaway dads: the myths and barriers that keep men from being the fathers, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 1999.
Culture Wars (magazine), "Selling Contempt", Ultramontane Associates/ American Center for Law and Justice, Vol. 20, 2000.
I also have subscription access to the Highbeam archives. Zubaty appeared briefly on the BBC2 programme Counterblast in January 2000:
"After 15 minutes, however, he was starting to run out of steam. He'd already called on the services of a like-minded American with the unlikely name of Rich Zubaty, described simply as "an author", who provided the usual array of meaningless statistics that these occasions demand. "Did you know that 19 out of every 20 people who die on the job are men?" Rich announced, at which George could only shake his head and mutter "Middle-class dykes", in a distracted sort of way."
(Preston, John, "Blast those dungarees", Sunday Telegraph, 30 January 2000)
I'm neutral as to whether the above is enough to establish notability, but at least it's something concrete to consider, and it's probably the limit to what can be found in reliable sources. Voceditenore ( talk) 12:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Reply to: Reply. Actually, I can provide a reference for it being a a bunch of crock.;-) See the reference by Boyd, Susan B. et al. below, where she lists his book amongst others derivative of the ideas expressed in the original works in the area dating back to the 1970s. Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
In the Boyd, Susan B. book referenced by Voceditnore, word-searched for “moral superiority”, Zubaty’s meme, there is NO reference. NONE. Have a look.
Let’s put the smugness on hold Boing! said Zebedee. You’ve crossed over now into being just flat out liars. This is a whitewash.
The ONLY place I have ever heard the moral superiority of women questioned besides Zubaty was when private England tortured those Abu Ghraib prisoners and Ellen Goodman said she had: always believed in the moral superiority of women up until that moment.
The real tyranny is feminism. Your bald attempts to control information are precisely the reason Zubaty sells books world wide and precisely why he should be included in wikipedia. If wikipedia has any balls that is. If wikipedia is about spreading information and not simply just a politicized tool of powerful institutions like feminism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.170.227 ( talk) 18:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC) reply
I ask that the editors commenting here focus on the content of the article, not on the character of contributors. Cunard ( talk) 06:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC) reply
Dear Ms. Zebedee, it seems you have missed the point entirely. It’s clear that the claim made was that: Voceditenore lied by saying that Zubaty’s original meme appeared in a book where it did not appear at all. Not at all. Not once. That was the lie. And nobody amongst the so-called wiki editors even bothered to check the lie. Thank goodness one of us dumb novices did. Then Fisherqueen took the discussion further afield by claiming Boyd’s mention of Zubaty was minor anyway. Yes, like Rousseau and Kant and even Tolstoy before him, Zubaty discussed the deficiencies of female morality. But he took it out of 17th century drawing room intrigues and updated it dead center to strident feminist America 1993. And he gave it a name. He didn’t call it a large fish that breathes air and sometimes sports a pale hue. He called it a “White Whale”. A meme! He said “Women are not morally superior to men” in absolutely clear unacademic populist American English. That’s what a meme is. Not merely an idea. But a concise FORMULATION of an idea. A soundbite for your mind. That is one of his dozen or more original philosophic contributions. And THAT was the entire point we were trying to make. He IS an original thinker and people like you can’t even keep up with his thoughts. No wonder we can’t find any quotes!
And in response to DGG. Zubaty has had books in hundreds of libraries but most of them have been stolen. Removed from the system. Denver public library had four copies at the SAME time the demand was so high in the mid 1990s. In an age of feminist harpy saboteurs it is no wonder his books cannot be publicly found. You people are grasping at straws to support an opinion you have held for years. That all men are assholes and you have to stop them any way you can. If you are wikipedia editors then wikipedia is doomed. You are worried about smoke detectors while your airliner is going down in flames. Time for new rules for editors. No harpies. No closed minds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lew Loot ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 14 May 2010