- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus -- Y not? 15:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Relationship of Clark Kent and Lois Lane
- Relationship of Clark Kent and Lois Lane ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This appears to be someone's essay/historiography on the relationship between Superman and Lois Lane. However, there is little sourced justification for why this relationship is so special that it deserves its own article and eventually devolves into a mass of WP:JUSTPLOT. I think anything notable can be covered in the "fictional character biography" sections of the two main articles. This page merely serves as WP:OR synthesis. Axem Titanium ( talk) 06:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strong Keep and flagged for rescue. As written, there are tremendous problems, primarily because the article is not sourced, however, the concept of the article seems not only fine, but very worthwhile. Both characters are independently notable, as would be the relationship between the two of them. The "love triangle" of Clark Kent, Lois Lane and Superman has been covered in virtually all Superman media, from comics to movies and is a significant plot device as well as the foundation for the character development. There is room at Wikipedia for an article like this, although it may take some serious editing to get it up to speed. In a nutshell, the subject matter is clearly notable, the topic is verifiable but not yet verified (which still passes wp:v), and the primary problem is that the current article is borked in many ways, yet very good in many others (ie: it is wikified quite well, which can be dug into for the reliable sources). This is a matter for editing and rescue, not deleting.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 15:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I can agree that the romance between these two characters has been brought up in virtually all Superman materials, but covered in multiple third-party sources and scholarly literature? I'd have to see it to believe it. This is not TV Tropes; numerous primary sources isn't going to cut it. Axem Titanium ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep/merge There seem to be plenty of sources which discuss the love triangle including a surprising number of philosophy texts which use it as standard set-piece. Per
WP:N and
WP:PRESERVE, deletion is a last resort and so we would find space for some of this with the main
Superman article rather than deleting it.
Colonel Warden (
talk) 17:21, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Are you sure we're reading the same article here? The text seems to be a regurgitation of plot summary from each of the various series and both Superman and Lois Lane already contain all the key points made in this article. Axem Titanium ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Super delete. This is original research pure and simple.
coccyx bloccyx
(toccyx) 18:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I thought
WP:OR issues are reasons to edit, not delete. At least that is what the policy seems to say.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 18:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- If this article can somehow be salvaged (read: rewritten) from reliable third party sources before the close of this debate, then by all means please notify me. Otherwise, this is a cut-and-dry delete. coccyx bloccyx (toccyx) 19:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I thought
WP:OR issues are reasons to edit, not delete. At least that is what the policy seems to say.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 18:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Notable subtopic of Superman. Reliable sources are likely available.
Edison (
talk) 23:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this can't be assumed since it has been unreferenced for two years and tagged as OR for three. If you would like to demonstrate the existence of scholarly work on the subject, please do. Otherwise, it is presumptuous to claim notability or availability of sources.
Axem Titanium (
talk) 00:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's because most people don't take the unreferenced and OR tags seriously. I know I don't. Have millions of articles out there made before they even had that requirement, so that alone isn't a valid reason to delete something. Dream Focus 12:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this can't be assumed since it has been unreferenced for two years and tagged as OR for three. If you would like to demonstrate the existence of scholarly work on the subject, please do. Otherwise, it is presumptuous to claim notability or availability of sources.
Axem Titanium (
talk) 00:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k ( talk) 23:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k ( talk) 00:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - Wikipedia is both a serious encyclopedia and a compendium of popular culture. This fails to qualify for the former, but is part and parcel of the latter. It's a very nice little piece that should be of interest to Wikipedia users. This is regarded as a terrible AfD rationale, but it's what I feel. This is a good place for an Ignore All Rules (Use Common Sense) keep, in my estimation. Carrite ( talk) 01:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep There is news coverage about their relationship and how it is portrayed in different media.
Will Superman Be Able To Resist Lois Lane's Trap? St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive - Jul 9, 1977 talks about their relationship, and not any other parts of that film. There are 361 Google news archive results for "Clark Kent" AND "Lois Lane" AND "relationship".
[1] Looking through the first page summaries, I say this is a topic well covered. The Palm Beach Post: SUPERMAN AND LOIS WON'T LAST - UNLESS, Pay-Per-View - Palm Beach Post - NewsBank - Oct 26, 1990, I see where Superman is finally going to get married, thereby legitimizing his longstanding relationship with Lois Lane.
Comics Reinventing Superman Is An Upwardly Mobile Hero. The Day - Google News Archive - Jun 22, 1986 talks about how their relationship, and how it changed, in that article.
Dream Focus 12:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. These sources look great to include in the main articles of Superman and Lois Lane, but do not demonstrate that their relationship in itself is independently notable. Axem Titanium ( talk) 23:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:Synthesis of WP:JUSTPLOT elements, lacking any WP:SECONDARY sourcing or any WP:Real world discussion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 19:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strong delete per WP:JUSTPLOT and WP:OR. Folken de Fanel ( talk) 09:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete The article is a plot-only description of a fictional work with no reception and significance in a real-world context and it appears to rely on original research by synthesis to generate a good deal of the content. It has only one reference and I cannot find reliable third-party sources to presume the notability of the subject. Merely trivial mentions about the character's relationship do not show that the topic meets the general notability guideline. Using Google, almost all the results are circular references to this very article. The fictional characters and the media around them may be notable but notability is not inherited. With no significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, I believe that this article should be deleted altogether since the usable parts of the article are mostly plot descriptions from media that is already covered in other articles. Jfgslo ( talk) 00:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - this is mostly original synthesis, and as per Jfgslo, plot-only description. Anthem of joy ( talk) 05:52, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep or merge. Agree with Dream Focus, there is "news coverage about their relationship and how it is portrayed in different media".-- Crazy runner ( talk) 08:24, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus -- Y not? 15:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Relationship of Clark Kent and Lois Lane
- Relationship of Clark Kent and Lois Lane ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This appears to be someone's essay/historiography on the relationship between Superman and Lois Lane. However, there is little sourced justification for why this relationship is so special that it deserves its own article and eventually devolves into a mass of WP:JUSTPLOT. I think anything notable can be covered in the "fictional character biography" sections of the two main articles. This page merely serves as WP:OR synthesis. Axem Titanium ( talk) 06:05, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strong Keep and flagged for rescue. As written, there are tremendous problems, primarily because the article is not sourced, however, the concept of the article seems not only fine, but very worthwhile. Both characters are independently notable, as would be the relationship between the two of them. The "love triangle" of Clark Kent, Lois Lane and Superman has been covered in virtually all Superman media, from comics to movies and is a significant plot device as well as the foundation for the character development. There is room at Wikipedia for an article like this, although it may take some serious editing to get it up to speed. In a nutshell, the subject matter is clearly notable, the topic is verifiable but not yet verified (which still passes wp:v), and the primary problem is that the current article is borked in many ways, yet very good in many others (ie: it is wikified quite well, which can be dug into for the reliable sources). This is a matter for editing and rescue, not deleting.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 15:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I can agree that the romance between these two characters has been brought up in virtually all Superman materials, but covered in multiple third-party sources and scholarly literature? I'd have to see it to believe it. This is not TV Tropes; numerous primary sources isn't going to cut it. Axem Titanium ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep/merge There seem to be plenty of sources which discuss the love triangle including a surprising number of philosophy texts which use it as standard set-piece. Per
WP:N and
WP:PRESERVE, deletion is a last resort and so we would find space for some of this with the main
Superman article rather than deleting it.
Colonel Warden (
talk) 17:21, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Are you sure we're reading the same article here? The text seems to be a regurgitation of plot summary from each of the various series and both Superman and Lois Lane already contain all the key points made in this article. Axem Titanium ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Super delete. This is original research pure and simple.
coccyx bloccyx
(toccyx) 18:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I thought
WP:OR issues are reasons to edit, not delete. At least that is what the policy seems to say.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 18:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- If this article can somehow be salvaged (read: rewritten) from reliable third party sources before the close of this debate, then by all means please notify me. Otherwise, this is a cut-and-dry delete. coccyx bloccyx (toccyx) 19:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I thought
WP:OR issues are reasons to edit, not delete. At least that is what the policy seems to say.
Dennis Brown (
talk) 18:54, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Notable subtopic of Superman. Reliable sources are likely available.
Edison (
talk) 23:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this can't be assumed since it has been unreferenced for two years and tagged as OR for three. If you would like to demonstrate the existence of scholarly work on the subject, please do. Otherwise, it is presumptuous to claim notability or availability of sources.
Axem Titanium (
talk) 00:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's because most people don't take the unreferenced and OR tags seriously. I know I don't. Have millions of articles out there made before they even had that requirement, so that alone isn't a valid reason to delete something. Dream Focus 12:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid this can't be assumed since it has been unreferenced for two years and tagged as OR for three. If you would like to demonstrate the existence of scholarly work on the subject, please do. Otherwise, it is presumptuous to claim notability or availability of sources.
Axem Titanium (
talk) 00:14, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k ( talk) 23:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k ( talk) 00:00, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - Wikipedia is both a serious encyclopedia and a compendium of popular culture. This fails to qualify for the former, but is part and parcel of the latter. It's a very nice little piece that should be of interest to Wikipedia users. This is regarded as a terrible AfD rationale, but it's what I feel. This is a good place for an Ignore All Rules (Use Common Sense) keep, in my estimation. Carrite ( talk) 01:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep There is news coverage about their relationship and how it is portrayed in different media.
Will Superman Be Able To Resist Lois Lane's Trap? St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive - Jul 9, 1977 talks about their relationship, and not any other parts of that film. There are 361 Google news archive results for "Clark Kent" AND "Lois Lane" AND "relationship".
[1] Looking through the first page summaries, I say this is a topic well covered. The Palm Beach Post: SUPERMAN AND LOIS WON'T LAST - UNLESS, Pay-Per-View - Palm Beach Post - NewsBank - Oct 26, 1990, I see where Superman is finally going to get married, thereby legitimizing his longstanding relationship with Lois Lane.
Comics Reinventing Superman Is An Upwardly Mobile Hero. The Day - Google News Archive - Jun 22, 1986 talks about how their relationship, and how it changed, in that article.
Dream Focus 12:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. These sources look great to include in the main articles of Superman and Lois Lane, but do not demonstrate that their relationship in itself is independently notable. Axem Titanium ( talk) 23:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete: WP:Synthesis of WP:JUSTPLOT elements, lacking any WP:SECONDARY sourcing or any WP:Real world discussion. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 19:12, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strong delete per WP:JUSTPLOT and WP:OR. Folken de Fanel ( talk) 09:16, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete The article is a plot-only description of a fictional work with no reception and significance in a real-world context and it appears to rely on original research by synthesis to generate a good deal of the content. It has only one reference and I cannot find reliable third-party sources to presume the notability of the subject. Merely trivial mentions about the character's relationship do not show that the topic meets the general notability guideline. Using Google, almost all the results are circular references to this very article. The fictional characters and the media around them may be notable but notability is not inherited. With no significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, I believe that this article should be deleted altogether since the usable parts of the article are mostly plot descriptions from media that is already covered in other articles. Jfgslo ( talk) 00:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - this is mostly original synthesis, and as per Jfgslo, plot-only description. Anthem of joy ( talk) 05:52, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Keep or merge. Agree with Dream Focus, there is "news coverage about their relationship and how it is portrayed in different media".-- Crazy runner ( talk) 08:24, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.