The result was keep. Consensus is that this article as it has evolved since its nomination demonstrates sufficient notability, although it has evidently been subject to inflated claims. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC) reply
There is RS coverage but it appears to be limited to the Washington/Idaho area and covering events at the church. No evidence this church/mission passes WP:CORP. It was speedied as G11, which I don't think applies in this re-creation, but I still don't see evidence of notability. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 02:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Thank you for linking me to this page. I'll continue the discussion here. There is quite a lot of notability about real life. The leaders are asked to speak throughout the nation at conferences. Real Life ministries was noted in the Christian science magazine as the fastest growing church in America. I will continue to bring more notability to the table as I find the sources outside "local press". Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.159.122 ( talk) 05:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I did some research on Real Life Ministries growth and in Outreach Magazine they did a study in 2005 and 2007. Real Life Ministries did not have the percentage of growth that they say, but was still listed as one of the 101 Fastest Growing churches in America. I don't know how to list this as a citation. Here are the links: http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2005.pdf ,and http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2007_fastest.pdf -- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 05:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
PLease do not remove AfD tags as you did here. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 12:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Reinstate AfD Message Obviously the church leadership feels that they can do whatever they want and ignore posted "warnings" not to delete certain content on this article. I found that I cannot "undo" their removal of the "Please do not remove or change this AfD message until the issue is settled" warning. I guess the church leadership feels that they can settle this matter themselves without anyone elses approval. If they were not trying to hide the truth from their congregation, and anyone else, then why avoid the discussion and try to remove all of the proven facts on the Wiki article. They even put back on the old "Mission statement", from their old website (that no longer exists -- www.rlmin.org) that you removed, stating that it is from their current website, when in fact it can be proven, by going to their website, that the same thing is not even on there. It is different. And if you go to the Secretary of the State of Idaho's website; and look at their "Articles of Incorporation", they have indeed been recorded with the State as a "Church of Christ" church. Isn't a recorded document enough "proof" to reflect in their first paragraph, cited as such, the truth? Please do not let this church leadership "bully" or intimidate another organization, such as yourself, to hide the truth. Thank you.-- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 10:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Note: AfD has been restored, not sure when or by whom it was removed but the discussion is not closed, therefore it should remain. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 11:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment the "proven" point I meant to emphasize was the encyclopedic fact of Real Life Ministries being a "Church of Christ" church. I know why you deleted the Mission Statement. Sorry for the confusion.-- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 12:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Delete. The article lacks any reliable independent sources that would verify the information in the article, and I wasn't able to find independent sources verifying the information with a google search. A claim has been made that the church was discussed in the Christian Science Monitor, but my search of their archives revealed no hits for the term. The discussions of whether or not the church is affiliated with the Church of Christ and whether or not the church's leaders are acting unethically are irrelevant; if the information in the article cannot be verified by sources outside of the church, then the article does not meet the verifiability standard or the notability standard. - FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 15:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Keep A church this size is notable. Not having sufficient references is something that can be fixed, and not a reason for deletion. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
comment -has local coverage- [1] [2], probably others. It all hinges on whether local coverage is enough for notability in a church? No google news hits that I can see. The special, the random, the lovely Merkinsmum 15:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
comment Oops, sorry! I didn't know you were listing the citations under "references".--
1TruthTracker (
talk) 15:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Strong Keep per DGG, and Peterkingiron. I also agree with Guy that it needs better sourcing though. In the 23 seconds it took me to type "Real Life Ministries in
Google News, I found at least one
article in
The Spokesman-Review (full article accessed through accessmylibrary.com), which is an independent, reliable source, asserts that The church...the largest in the Inland Northwest if not the Pacific Northwest, and Space is limited for the 7,500 people who attend weekend services. That number ballooned to 12,000 on Easter.. Also, towards the end of the article Putman said it could take 25 years to complete the new campus, which is planned as 10 buildings with a total of 458,000 square feet of space. It's organized around a village green that could include a two-acre artificial lake, two miles of trails and an amphitheater, in addition to a 3,500-space parking lot. Although local, (all churches are local aren't they? Denominations are the articles that need non-local verifiability) this place sounds significant, whether we
like it or not.
Keeper |
76 |
Disclaimer 17:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
reply
The result was keep. Consensus is that this article as it has evolved since its nomination demonstrates sufficient notability, although it has evidently been subject to inflated claims. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC) reply
There is RS coverage but it appears to be limited to the Washington/Idaho area and covering events at the church. No evidence this church/mission passes WP:CORP. It was speedied as G11, which I don't think applies in this re-creation, but I still don't see evidence of notability. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 02:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Thank you for linking me to this page. I'll continue the discussion here. There is quite a lot of notability about real life. The leaders are asked to speak throughout the nation at conferences. Real Life ministries was noted in the Christian science magazine as the fastest growing church in America. I will continue to bring more notability to the table as I find the sources outside "local press". Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.159.122 ( talk) 05:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I did some research on Real Life Ministries growth and in Outreach Magazine they did a study in 2005 and 2007. Real Life Ministries did not have the percentage of growth that they say, but was still listed as one of the 101 Fastest Growing churches in America. I don't know how to list this as a citation. Here are the links: http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2005.pdf ,and http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2007_fastest.pdf -- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 05:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
PLease do not remove AfD tags as you did here. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 12:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Reinstate AfD Message Obviously the church leadership feels that they can do whatever they want and ignore posted "warnings" not to delete certain content on this article. I found that I cannot "undo" their removal of the "Please do not remove or change this AfD message until the issue is settled" warning. I guess the church leadership feels that they can settle this matter themselves without anyone elses approval. If they were not trying to hide the truth from their congregation, and anyone else, then why avoid the discussion and try to remove all of the proven facts on the Wiki article. They even put back on the old "Mission statement", from their old website (that no longer exists -- www.rlmin.org) that you removed, stating that it is from their current website, when in fact it can be proven, by going to their website, that the same thing is not even on there. It is different. And if you go to the Secretary of the State of Idaho's website; and look at their "Articles of Incorporation", they have indeed been recorded with the State as a "Church of Christ" church. Isn't a recorded document enough "proof" to reflect in their first paragraph, cited as such, the truth? Please do not let this church leadership "bully" or intimidate another organization, such as yourself, to hide the truth. Thank you.-- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 10:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Note: AfD has been restored, not sure when or by whom it was removed but the discussion is not closed, therefore it should remain. TRAVELLINGCARI My story Tell me yours 11:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment the "proven" point I meant to emphasize was the encyclopedic fact of Real Life Ministries being a "Church of Christ" church. I know why you deleted the Mission Statement. Sorry for the confusion.-- 1TruthTracker ( talk) 12:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Delete. The article lacks any reliable independent sources that would verify the information in the article, and I wasn't able to find independent sources verifying the information with a google search. A claim has been made that the church was discussed in the Christian Science Monitor, but my search of their archives revealed no hits for the term. The discussions of whether or not the church is affiliated with the Church of Christ and whether or not the church's leaders are acting unethically are irrelevant; if the information in the article cannot be verified by sources outside of the church, then the article does not meet the verifiability standard or the notability standard. - FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 15:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Keep A church this size is notable. Not having sufficient references is something that can be fixed, and not a reason for deletion. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
comment -has local coverage- [1] [2], probably others. It all hinges on whether local coverage is enough for notability in a church? No google news hits that I can see. The special, the random, the lovely Merkinsmum 15:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC) reply
comment Oops, sorry! I didn't know you were listing the citations under "references".--
1TruthTracker (
talk) 15:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Strong Keep per DGG, and Peterkingiron. I also agree with Guy that it needs better sourcing though. In the 23 seconds it took me to type "Real Life Ministries in
Google News, I found at least one
article in
The Spokesman-Review (full article accessed through accessmylibrary.com), which is an independent, reliable source, asserts that The church...the largest in the Inland Northwest if not the Pacific Northwest, and Space is limited for the 7,500 people who attend weekend services. That number ballooned to 12,000 on Easter.. Also, towards the end of the article Putman said it could take 25 years to complete the new campus, which is planned as 10 buildings with a total of 458,000 square feet of space. It's organized around a village green that could include a two-acre artificial lake, two miles of trails and an amphitheater, in addition to a 3,500-space parking lot. Although local, (all churches are local aren't they? Denominations are the articles that need non-local verifiability) this place sounds significant, whether we
like it or not.
Keeper |
76 |
Disclaimer 17:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
reply