- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) ~~ OxonAlex - talk 19:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Price of milk question
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- Price of milk question ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Don't seem to be SIGCOV RS for this in sources given that are mainly news articles, and I doubt there exists any SIGCOV RS anywhere. This is at best some mildly recurring press conference question but either way no well-documented rhetorical tactic as the article seems to make it out to be. Gaioa ( T C L) 19:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Feel there could be more on this. Hyperbolick ( talk) 21:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- if the nominator would use words, that would be swell. Wikipedia is hard enough to navigate due to the bureaucracy, and initialisms aren't all that hard to avoid.~ T P W 21:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 23:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Unclear that this is a cohesive topic that has the notability for an encyclopedia article. Citations do not give substantive coverage establishing that a "price of milk question" is an actual thing, though Politician#Criticism could certainly be expanded to cover the concept of politicians being out of touch. One of the links mentions the Food stamp challenge, not knowing the amount of a pension, celebs not doing their own laundry, not using stamps, and not taking the subway, but there should not be an article about milk. LOL at the idea AFD editors being unfamiliar with WP:RS, that should be a minimum for voting here. Reywas92 Talk 23:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete as a
WP:NEOLOGISM that absolutely nobody has used.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 19:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- If you mean the title itself, that's a description of the topic that was picked in the absence of any commonly-used name. The article is about the political/journalistic trope, not the phrase Price of milk question itself. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. It's a trope or meme. I'm unsure whether it's worth as whole article. Could this be redirected or merged somewhere?
Bearian (
talk) 13:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Gotcha journalism looks like the place for it, given that the question is an attempt to get a soundbite of an incorrect answer.
Tophattingson (
talk) 22:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with this. The BBC's reference to "ambush" seems to support it. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 03:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
-
Gotcha journalism looks like the place for it, given that the question is an attempt to get a soundbite of an incorrect answer.
Tophattingson (
talk) 22:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. A poorly sourced article that is doubted to be encyclopedic. Nikoo.Amini ( talk) 23:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep (and would be open to a merge) per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".Extended content
- Barford, Vanessa (2012-04-24).
"Should politicians know the price of a pint of milk?".
BBC Online. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
A Tory MP has described David Cameron and George Osborne as "two posh boys who don't know the price of milk". But why is knowing the price of milk so important?
It's a classical political ambush that has been popular on both sides of the Atlantic for decades.
Politicians, constantly primed to deal with detailed questions on policy, personnel or principles, are instead asked the price of something.
But it's not the price of the new fighter jet or flagship hospital - instead it's a stamp, a loaf of bread or, most of all, a pint of milk.
In 1992, US President George H W Bush, was forced to admit he did not know how much a gallon of milk cost during a debate with Bill Clinton and Ross Perot.
Another American to suffer a similar reality check was Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City who was rumbled while on the campaign trail in Alabama . He managed to underestimate the cost by about 50%.
...
But why milk and not a unit of electricity, or 80 tea bags, or a 40W bulb?
...
Anthony King, professor of British government at the University of Essex, says he understands why milk is a "shorthand - or a way of expressing succinctly that a politician may be out of touch".
- Rudgard, Olivia (2015-06-24).
"How much is a pint of milk? A celebrity's guide to normal people's lives".
The Daily Telegraph. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
Pint of milk, please
This one has been tripping up politicians around the world for years, so you'd think they would make sure they knew the answer. Not so. Politicians who have been caught out by the price of milk question include former farming minister Jim Paice, who admitted on Farming Today that he did not know the price of a pint of milk "because my wife buys most of it." Oh dear.Boris Johnson was another who lacked basic milk knowledge - though he headed off the issue in his unique ebullient way, with a "so what?"
- Smith, Jennifer; Sharman, Samantha (2012-07-12). "Why the 'pint of milk' test is past its sell-by date". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- McNeilly, Claire (2013-10-03).
"So what do milk and bread cost?...We test seven public figures".
Belfast Telegraph. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
It's the oldest booby-trap in the book – yet politicians keep falling for it. They brag they're in touch with the ordinary man, then fall short when asked about the price of milk or bread. David Cameron and Boris Johnson (left) are the latest victims. Claire McNeilly quizzed a few well-known locals to find out how they would have fared had Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight asked them the same questions
-
Polman, Dick (2007-04-12).
"Much bigger tests than cost of milk".
The Philadelphia Inquirer. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
Here's my pop quiz: Who cares?
The price test is just a lazy journalistic gimmick designed to imply that a political candidate is out of touch with the lives of the masses. (Some political scientists refer to pop quizzes as "degradation ceremonies.") Giuliani flunks the milk question, ergo he is an elitist. Ditto Lamar Alexander. Ditto Tom Strickland, a Democratic Senate candidate in Colorado, who in a 2002 debate was asked to name the price of a gallon of unleaded gas, and got it wrong. Ditto John Edwards, who blanked on the price of a six-pack of beer in July 2004. ("I haven't bought a six-pack of beer in years, so I don't know.") His questioner, by the way, was Don Imus.
- Kostigen, Thomas M. (2011).
The Big Handout: How Government Subsidies and Corporate Welfare Corrupt the World We Live In and Wreak Havoc on Our Food Bills. New York:
Rodale, Inc. pp. 62–63.
ISBN
978-1-60961-318-1. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The book notes:
Politics and the milk industry have always been tightly ound. And a typical test of a politician's "Americanness" is to be able to quote the price of a gallon of milk.
In 2008, presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani famously failed this test. And President George H.W. Bush similarly was taken to task for being out of touch with the American people for his purported amazement over a grocery store price scanner.
- McSmith, Andy (2012-07-11).
"Diary: A Tory who really should know the price of milk".
The Independent. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
The price of milk is a time-worn interviewer's weapon, designed expressly to demonstrate how out of touch a politician is with the people he or she represents.
- Judkis, Maura (2018-08-01). "Trump shows he's clueless about groceries — like so many politicians before him". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- "Name that price: politicians struggle with cost of groceries". The Daily Telegraph. 2014-05-20. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- Barford, Vanessa (2012-04-24).
"Should politicians know the price of a pint of milk?".
BBC Online. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- Pinging Sangdeboeuf ( talk · contribs), who significantly expanded and sourced the article.
- Comment: The sources I linked above demonstrate that this is notable: the topic of politicians' being asked the price of milk or of other groceries and products to test whether the politicians are out of touch with their constituents.
BBC Online says in 2012, "It's a classical political ambush that has been popular on both sides of the Atlantic for decades."
The Daily Telegraph in 2012 says, "This one has been tripping up politicians around the world for years" and "Politicians who have been caught out by the price of milk question include former farming minister Jim Paice".
The Daily Telegraph in a 2015 article says "Why the 'pint of milk' test is past its sell-by date".
The Belfast Telegraph in 2013 says politicians' being asked "the price of milk or bread" is "he oldest booby-trap in the book – yet politicians keep falling for it".
The Philadelphia Inquirer says in 2007, "The price test is just a lazy journalistic gimmick designed to imply that a political candidate is out of touch with the lives of the masses."
Thomas M. Kostigen wrote in a 2011 book, "And a typical test of a politician's "Americanness" is to be able to quote the price of a gallon of milk."
The Independent notes in 2012, "The price of milk is a time-worn interviewer's weapon".
If this material can be merged to an article where it fits better, I would support that. I oppose deletion since this is well-sourced material that sources have highlighted as being significant.
Relisting comment: Some good arguments for merge were made, let's see what the possible target is.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tone 12:50, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per Cunard's sources. FOARP ( talk) 21:01, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep (thanks
Cunard for the ping). I see enough sources providing
evaluation and analysis of the topic to meet
WP:SIGCOV. While there's not a ton of info here, it seems like a notable enough topic given the multiple sources over a number of years. I'd also be open to a merge,
but I'm not sure what a good target would be.— Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:13, 2 November 2019 (UTC) - Weak keep. If the sources found were added to the article, and I'd see some fixes, then I'd go along. Bearian ( talk)
- Keep I would strongly advocate to keeping it as is, and expanding the stub. This topic gets media coverage quite often, and should be expanded upon with sources. ⭐ Ahmer Jamil Khan 💬 14:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per Cunard. Passes WP:GNG. 4meter4 ( talk) 16:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) ~~ OxonAlex - talk 19:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Price of milk question
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Price of milk question ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Don't seem to be SIGCOV RS for this in sources given that are mainly news articles, and I doubt there exists any SIGCOV RS anywhere. This is at best some mildly recurring press conference question but either way no well-documented rhetorical tactic as the article seems to make it out to be. Gaioa ( T C L) 19:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Feel there could be more on this. Hyperbolick ( talk) 21:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- if the nominator would use words, that would be swell. Wikipedia is hard enough to navigate due to the bureaucracy, and initialisms aren't all that hard to avoid.~ T P W 21:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 23:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete Unclear that this is a cohesive topic that has the notability for an encyclopedia article. Citations do not give substantive coverage establishing that a "price of milk question" is an actual thing, though Politician#Criticism could certainly be expanded to cover the concept of politicians being out of touch. One of the links mentions the Food stamp challenge, not knowing the amount of a pension, celebs not doing their own laundry, not using stamps, and not taking the subway, but there should not be an article about milk. LOL at the idea AFD editors being unfamiliar with WP:RS, that should be a minimum for voting here. Reywas92 Talk 23:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete as a
WP:NEOLOGISM that absolutely nobody has used.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 19:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- If you mean the title itself, that's a description of the topic that was picked in the absence of any commonly-used name. The article is about the political/journalistic trope, not the phrase Price of milk question itself. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 20:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. It's a trope or meme. I'm unsure whether it's worth as whole article. Could this be redirected or merged somewhere?
Bearian (
talk) 13:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Gotcha journalism looks like the place for it, given that the question is an attempt to get a soundbite of an incorrect answer.
Tophattingson (
talk) 22:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with this. The BBC's reference to "ambush" seems to support it. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 03:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
-
Gotcha journalism looks like the place for it, given that the question is an attempt to get a soundbite of an incorrect answer.
Tophattingson (
talk) 22:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. A poorly sourced article that is doubted to be encyclopedic. Nikoo.Amini ( talk) 23:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep (and would be open to a merge) per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the subject to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".Extended content
- Barford, Vanessa (2012-04-24).
"Should politicians know the price of a pint of milk?".
BBC Online. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
A Tory MP has described David Cameron and George Osborne as "two posh boys who don't know the price of milk". But why is knowing the price of milk so important?
It's a classical political ambush that has been popular on both sides of the Atlantic for decades.
Politicians, constantly primed to deal with detailed questions on policy, personnel or principles, are instead asked the price of something.
But it's not the price of the new fighter jet or flagship hospital - instead it's a stamp, a loaf of bread or, most of all, a pint of milk.
In 1992, US President George H W Bush, was forced to admit he did not know how much a gallon of milk cost during a debate with Bill Clinton and Ross Perot.
Another American to suffer a similar reality check was Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City who was rumbled while on the campaign trail in Alabama . He managed to underestimate the cost by about 50%.
...
But why milk and not a unit of electricity, or 80 tea bags, or a 40W bulb?
...
Anthony King, professor of British government at the University of Essex, says he understands why milk is a "shorthand - or a way of expressing succinctly that a politician may be out of touch".
- Rudgard, Olivia (2015-06-24).
"How much is a pint of milk? A celebrity's guide to normal people's lives".
The Daily Telegraph. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
Pint of milk, please
This one has been tripping up politicians around the world for years, so you'd think they would make sure they knew the answer. Not so. Politicians who have been caught out by the price of milk question include former farming minister Jim Paice, who admitted on Farming Today that he did not know the price of a pint of milk "because my wife buys most of it." Oh dear.Boris Johnson was another who lacked basic milk knowledge - though he headed off the issue in his unique ebullient way, with a "so what?"
- Smith, Jennifer; Sharman, Samantha (2012-07-12). "Why the 'pint of milk' test is past its sell-by date". The Daily Telegraph. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- McNeilly, Claire (2013-10-03).
"So what do milk and bread cost?...We test seven public figures".
Belfast Telegraph. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
It's the oldest booby-trap in the book – yet politicians keep falling for it. They brag they're in touch with the ordinary man, then fall short when asked about the price of milk or bread. David Cameron and Boris Johnson (left) are the latest victims. Claire McNeilly quizzed a few well-known locals to find out how they would have fared had Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight asked them the same questions
-
Polman, Dick (2007-04-12).
"Much bigger tests than cost of milk".
The Philadelphia Inquirer. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
Here's my pop quiz: Who cares?
The price test is just a lazy journalistic gimmick designed to imply that a political candidate is out of touch with the lives of the masses. (Some political scientists refer to pop quizzes as "degradation ceremonies.") Giuliani flunks the milk question, ergo he is an elitist. Ditto Lamar Alexander. Ditto Tom Strickland, a Democratic Senate candidate in Colorado, who in a 2002 debate was asked to name the price of a gallon of unleaded gas, and got it wrong. Ditto John Edwards, who blanked on the price of a six-pack of beer in July 2004. ("I haven't bought a six-pack of beer in years, so I don't know.") His questioner, by the way, was Don Imus.
- Kostigen, Thomas M. (2011).
The Big Handout: How Government Subsidies and Corporate Welfare Corrupt the World We Live In and Wreak Havoc on Our Food Bills. New York:
Rodale, Inc. pp. 62–63.
ISBN
978-1-60961-318-1. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The book notes:
Politics and the milk industry have always been tightly ound. And a typical test of a politician's "Americanness" is to be able to quote the price of a gallon of milk.
In 2008, presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani famously failed this test. And President George H.W. Bush similarly was taken to task for being out of touch with the American people for his purported amazement over a grocery store price scanner.
- McSmith, Andy (2012-07-11).
"Diary: A Tory who really should know the price of milk".
The Independent. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
The article notes:
The price of milk is a time-worn interviewer's weapon, designed expressly to demonstrate how out of touch a politician is with the people he or she represents.
- Judkis, Maura (2018-08-01). "Trump shows he's clueless about groceries — like so many politicians before him". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- "Name that price: politicians struggle with cost of groceries". The Daily Telegraph. 2014-05-20. Archived from the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- Barford, Vanessa (2012-04-24).
"Should politicians know the price of a pint of milk?".
BBC Online. Archived from
the original on 2019-11-02. Retrieved 2019-11-02.
- Pinging Sangdeboeuf ( talk · contribs), who significantly expanded and sourced the article.
- Comment: The sources I linked above demonstrate that this is notable: the topic of politicians' being asked the price of milk or of other groceries and products to test whether the politicians are out of touch with their constituents.
BBC Online says in 2012, "It's a classical political ambush that has been popular on both sides of the Atlantic for decades."
The Daily Telegraph in 2012 says, "This one has been tripping up politicians around the world for years" and "Politicians who have been caught out by the price of milk question include former farming minister Jim Paice".
The Daily Telegraph in a 2015 article says "Why the 'pint of milk' test is past its sell-by date".
The Belfast Telegraph in 2013 says politicians' being asked "the price of milk or bread" is "he oldest booby-trap in the book – yet politicians keep falling for it".
The Philadelphia Inquirer says in 2007, "The price test is just a lazy journalistic gimmick designed to imply that a political candidate is out of touch with the lives of the masses."
Thomas M. Kostigen wrote in a 2011 book, "And a typical test of a politician's "Americanness" is to be able to quote the price of a gallon of milk."
The Independent notes in 2012, "The price of milk is a time-worn interviewer's weapon".
If this material can be merged to an article where it fits better, I would support that. I oppose deletion since this is well-sourced material that sources have highlighted as being significant.
Relisting comment: Some good arguments for merge were made, let's see what the possible target is.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tone 12:50, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per Cunard's sources. FOARP ( talk) 21:01, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep (thanks
Cunard for the ping). I see enough sources providing
evaluation and analysis of the topic to meet
WP:SIGCOV. While there's not a ton of info here, it seems like a notable enough topic given the multiple sources over a number of years. I'd also be open to a merge,
but I'm not sure what a good target would be.— Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 21:13, 2 November 2019 (UTC) - Weak keep. If the sources found were added to the article, and I'd see some fixes, then I'd go along. Bearian ( talk)
- Keep I would strongly advocate to keeping it as is, and expanding the stub. This topic gets media coverage quite often, and should be expanded upon with sources. ⭐ Ahmer Jamil Khan 💬 14:58, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per Cunard. Passes WP:GNG. 4meter4 ( talk) 16:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.