- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep. The author's notability has been established. SouthernNights ( talk) 15:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Peter Mandel ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Article does not establish notability per WP:AUTHOR. It has been created by an WP:SPA ( Special:Contributions/ReidWilliam) who has included many citations, without any effort to format them properly. The citations merely demonstrate that the writer has been published in multiple media; they are not about him as a subject. – Fayenatic L ondon 08:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Responding here, as may be evident, to the comments and recommended deletion made by Fayenatic London 08:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC).
Would it be possible for other Wikipedia editors to review this, and the above, and add their comments and suggestions? Many thanks.
In a portion of the explanation for recommended deletion, it's noted that the article "has been created by an WP:SPA who has included many citations, without any effort to format them properly." No doubt there may be many formatting shortcomings. Is it reasonable and fair to ask if the editor could offer specifics so repairs can be made? Thank you.
In a portion of the explanation, it's mentioned that the article's "Citations merely demonstrate that the writer has been published in multiple media; they are not about him as a subject." I think this may be the core point, unless I'm mistaken.
In response, the following are citations from the current 'References' section of the article that discuss Mandel as a subject. [Fyi, the reference sources, below, "Contemporary Authors" and "Something About the Author," are the major library reference volumes for American children's book authors.]:
a) Contemporary Authors (Gale Publishing, Volume 152): http://www.galenet.com/servlet/LitIndex/hits;jsessionid=55205194A4C7DF090337077DC3DE748F?r=d&origSearch=false&o=DocTitle&n=10&l=12&c=1&secondary=false&u=LitIndex&t=KW&s=1&PN=0000120523 ;
b) Something About The Author (Gale Publishing, Volumes 87, 238): http://www.galenet.com/servlet/LitIndex/hits;jsessionid=55205194A4C7DF090337077DC3DE748F?r=d&origSearch=false&o=DocTitle&n=10&l=12&c=1&secondary=false&u=LitIndex&t=KW&s=1&PN=0000120523 ;
c) Article about Peter Mandel, The Fall River Herald News, March 16, 2013: “Children's book author Peter Mandel to share publishing tips.” http://www.heraldnews.com/newsnow/x2082713507/Childrens-book-author-Peter-Mandel-to-share-publishing-tips
As well, the following citations from 'External Links' discuss Mandel in the same vein, though to a lesser degree, as a subject:
d) List of notable alumni in Wikipedia article about New York's City and Country School[1]. /info/en/?search=City_and_Country_School
e) Chapter on Peter Mandel in anthology, Authors in the Pantry: Recipes, Stories, and More by Sharron L . McElmeel, Deborah L. McElmeel (Libraries Unlimited, 2006), ISBN 1591583217; pages 173-176. http://books.google.com/books?id=YcpoqurBhhsC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22peter+Mandel%22+authors+in+the+pantry&source=bl&ots=IARzqYMTSA&sig=dW_z2HBYhXm09ogihiOYRPk-1ZQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3nxgUejoMKjk2AWnq4CQCg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22peter%20Mandel%22%20authors%20in%20the%20pantry&f=false
f) Citation of article by Peter Mandel in book, Sacred Stacks: The Higher Purpose of Libraries And Librarianship by Nancy Kalikow Maxwell (American Library Association, 2006); ISBN 0838909175; p. 85. http://books.google.com/books?id=avD3XicGsh4C&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22Peter+Mandel%22+sacred+stacks&source=bl&ots=2mbsT_xcC1&sig=0-DzTOddALJcrf1KgU4es0g_bxc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=33NgUeCkCOKa2gWbw4CYAg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Peter%20Mandel%22%20sacred%20stacks&f=false
g) Interview with Peter Mandel on website for guidebook, Travel Writing 2.0: Earning Money from Your Travels in the New Media Landscape by Tim Leffel (Splinter Press, 2010); ISBN 1609101081, ISBN 978-1609101084. http://travelwriting2.com/an-interview-with-peter-mandel/
h) Interview with Peter Mandel, Kidoinfo.com website: http://kidoinfo.com/ri/local-author-peter-mandel-talks-books-botswana-burgers/
Thank you for your consideration. ReidWilliam (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC) ReidWilliam ( talk) 05:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of News media-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: The first two links, galenet.com, appear to be a private database providing access only to registered users. I cannot retrieve anything on those URLs. Please note that linking to search results should normally be avoided.
- Please desist from claiming evidence from his entry in the Wikipedia page about his school; that list only cites his own website in support.
- What you need to do is to demonstrate that the various published material about him meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability in Wikipedia:Notability (people). If he does not meet the specific criteria in WP:AUTHOR then fall back on WP:ANYBIO or WP:BASIC. The interviews with him (e.g. c, g and h in your list above) may be your best bet, but they strike me as mutual promotion for the author and the publisher, as opposed to truly demonstrating notability.
- As for formatting help, I already left you a note on your talk page with links to WP:CHEATSHEET and WP:CITE. – Fayenatic L ondon 16:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Responding here to the latest comments re: recommended deletion made by Fayenatic London just above:
After I'd supplied citations from two of the major library reference sources for children's book authors here in the U.S.: 'Contemporary Authors' (Gale Publishing, Volume 152) and 'Something About The Author' (Gale Publishing, Volumes 87, 238), Fayenatic London responded as follows: "The first two links, galenet.com, appear to be a private database providing access only to registered users. I cannot retrieve anything on those URLs. Please note that linking to search results should normally be avoided." This raises, I think, some fairly broad-based issues about deletion suggestions re: American children's book authors. These two sources are, if you'll research them a bit, absolutely fundamental library references in the children's book field. Both are ubiquitous in the U.S. and highly selective in terms of included authors. Librarians and those in the reference field will be astonished if they cannot serve as Wikipedia citations for 'notability.' As editors must surely realize, like many other major library reference sources, they have to be available only to registered users and to library patrons, or face becoming quickly obsolete. Would it satisfy Fayenatic London if I emailed scanned copies of the entries on Mandel from each of the volumes? I'd be happy to do that in the hope that it would, perhaps, resolve this.
Fayenatic London adds the following, a bit later on. "The interviews with him [Mandel] (e.g. c, g and h in your list above) may be your best bet, but they strike me as mutual promotion for the author and the publisher, as opposed to truly demonstrating notability." In response, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm reaching a point of some despair, after a lot of work. "Mutual promotion for the author and publisher?" I think there may be a misunderstanding of what each represents. Let me try again. The following first citation is an article from a daily newspaper in New England, the region of the U.S. where the author lives. It's not an advertisement, or a press release, but a reported article in the most basic sense: "Article about Peter Mandel, The Fall River Herald News, March 16, 2013: “Children's book author Peter Mandel to share publishing tips.” http://www.heraldnews.com/newsnow/x2082713507/Childrens-book-author-Peter-Mandel-to-share-publishing-tips The second citation mentioned (which is completely separate from the first) is an "Interview with Peter Mandel on website for guidebook, Travel Writing 2.0: Earning Money from Your Travels in the New Media Landscape by Tim Leffel (Splinter Press, 2010); ISBN 1609101081, ISBN 978-1609101084. http://travelwriting2.com/an-interview-with-peter-mandel/ Please note: The interview is on the website, not for promotion, but because it is included in the book, itself. The third mentioned (again, a completely separate example) is an "Interview with Peter Mandel, Kidoinfo.com website: http://kidoinfo.com/ri/local-author-peter-mandel-talks-books-botswana-burgers/" Please note: There's no "publisher" involved. No promotional intent. It's simply an informational feature--an interview w. a regional children's book author and journalist for a Southern New England audience. Please let me know if there are other questions, or if I wasn't clear. Thanks. ReidWilliam ( talk) 04:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- I want to affirm that I have examined at all 4 sources under discussion above, and User:ReidWilliam is absolutely correct and accurate (I have the privilege of access to a major library system). This was the reason for my SPEEDY KEEP iVote. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 21:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
SPEEDYKEEP Mandel is clearly notable, clearly sufficient material is readily found to pass GNG. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 13:54, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- User:ReidWilliam, welcome. I'm sorry you got jumped on your maiden effort editing Wikipedia. editing pages is really not that hard, it just takes a little while to get the knack. I could wish that User:Fayenatic london had spent a little time walking you through the necessary edits, instead of taking a page on a patently notable writer to AFD, but, well, it's how things work here. Please don't be discouraged. There are user-friendly links to how to edit atop your talk page. And I do hope you'll stick around, lots of pages on topics you know/care care about need attention. (I assert this with confidence, since we have so many pages in need of attention) E.M.Gregory ( talk) 13:54, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
To E.M.Gregory: Thank you very much for the encouraging words with regard to editing pages overall, and your support regarding the Mandel page. I'm grateful. (Do you know if there is a point where, if others concur, the Articles Proposed for Deletion tag can be removed?). Thanks once again, and best wishes. ReidWilliam ( talk) 17:50, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: AfD discussions normally run for a week. If there is not much participation, they may be extended. When an administrator closes the discussion, s/he will remove the tag if the article is kept. – Fayenatic L ondon 21:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- To begin the effort to improve the Wikipedia article in question, have added, under 'External Links', a new link to an article about Mandel as an author (in response to editorial suggestions re: notability): "Profile of Peter Mandel as part of the "Inside the Writer’s Studio" series about authors on the Read Local/Barrington Books (R.I.) website: http://thestudioatbb.com/readlocal/2012/10/14/inside-the-writers-studio-peter-mandel/" ReidWilliam ( talk) 19:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- Continuing the effort to improve the article in terms of notability, have added a reference (under "Works") to a Publishers Weekly book review of one of the author's titles and the corresponding link: "Jackhammer Sam (Peter Mandel, Author; David Catrow, Illustrator)," Publishers Weekly, October 17, 2011. http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-59643-034-1 ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: @ E.M.Gregory: I have "wikified" the external links section, and the first group of citations under "References". Please do likewise for the rest. Either refer to WP:FOOTNOTE or just copy the method that I used. It can only help your arguments to keep the page if it looks decent – which it still does not at the moment. – Fayenatic L ondon 16:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- To: Fayenatic london: Thank you very much for doing that. When I'm back home tomorrow, I'll get to work on that--first thing. Thanks, again. ReidWilliam ( talk) 18:17, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- Have begun work on 'wikifying' References section using editor's example and WP:FOOTNOTE. Am trying to do this as carefully as I can--though am still puzzling out some aspects. For one, I can't seem to discover how to remove an extra line space and a [2] at the top of the References section. If anyone can help with that, I'd be grateful. Many thanks.
ReidWilliam (
talk)
21:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- ReidWilliam: I did it in stages to try and make it easy for you to follow. I've just finished number 2 for you. Read the notes I left in the edit summaries ( page history) too. – Fayenatic L ondon 22:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london: I really appreciate that. Thank you. (I'll keep plugging away on it, until I get it right.) ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:21, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- Am continuing work on 'wikifying' References section, using editor's examples and WP:FOOTNOTE. (My apologies for the blunders I'm still making.) Have somehow caused multiple footnote numbers: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] to appear once again at the top of References section, and can't seem to delete them. Will keep trying. Also, though I didn't intend this, the article titles are appearing in an italic font. ReidWilliam ( talk) 22:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london and E.M.Gregory: Have continued to work on 'wikifying' References section. (Hope it's looking slightly cleaner.) I apologize that I still haven't figured out how to delete the multiple footnote numbers: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], that have popped up at the top of References section. ReidWilliam ( talk) 22:22, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london and E.M.Gregory I'm continuing to work on 'wikifying' the Mandel page, and am (finally) repairing the footnotes and numbering. (I think I've finally figured that aspect out.) Bear with me, please. ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for finishing that, ReidWilliam. Well, the page is now readable, and I have rearranged the content more like a standard biography. It probably still contains too many details and quotations about the children's books. Most of the links are just book reviews and examples of Mandel's press articles, proving only that he is a journalist, rather than a notable one; and he has only won one minor award, for a travel article. I am therefore still not convinced that the article demonstrates notability by Wikipedia's standards. Most of the web links that are claimed to be articles about Peter Mandel, e.g. (e) above, are primarily about local events at which he would be appearing. The "Chapter on Peter Mandel in anthology, Authors in the Pantry" ((c) above) is self-contributed and not significant. Despite the first appearance of a sea of citations, I therefore dispute E.M.Gregory's claim that Mandel meets the general notability guideline. By falling back on GNG, E.M.Gregory, were you accepting that the subject does not meet any of WP:AUTHOR, WP:ANYBIO or WP:BASIC? – Fayenatic L ondon 14:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- It was generous of User:Fayenatic london to clean up the formatting. The text still has a long way to go before it approaches the proper tone, content for an encyclopedia entry. There is less than I thought at first look (above) And the article is stuffed with articles by Mandel (also Amazon.com and Goodreads) that should not be on the page. However, journalism prizes and finalist position in major competitions are significant things. As is having a picture book listed on sundry "picks" lists in the trade press. So I do think that Mandel squeaks past WP:AUTHOR, "multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." Notability hinges on the reviews in the trade press (aimed at librarians and booksellers), the journalism prize, publications of multiple children's book, that are reviewed in selective trade publications: Kirkus and Publishers Weekly, some with stars. On this Chicago Tribune review of Jackhammer Sam [1]. and on this article/interview in a general circulation publication [2], the Fall River The Herald News. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 15:55, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- E.M.Gregory and Fayenatic london: Thanks to you both for the editing and formatting help re: the Mandel page, and for your latest round of comments. With regard to notability, I've gone back and done a bit more research. Since it sounds like book reviews in major periodicals, significant awards, and work being anthologized are key, I've found some other relevant citations that I hadn't been aware of. These include several more of the author's books being reviewed in Publishers Weekly, Kirkus and The Horn Book; three journalism awards; and an anthology and edited collection that include the author's work. Am working on double-checking the citations. Please, if you would, give me a few hours on this. Many thanks. ReidWilliam ( talk) 18:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- E.M.Gregory and Fayenatic london: More to come, but as noted above, I've done some further research. With regard to the notability question, I've added citations for several more reviews of Mandel's books in major journals (Publishers Weekly, Kirkus). Have put these under 'External Links' so as not to disrupt the formatting. As well, I've added citations, under 'Other Works,' for two edited anthologies that include the author's work. One is an older collection of animal related essays in the "Chicken Soup" series, the other a recent anthology of travel journalism. There's another anthology, and two other journalistic awards that have popped up as well; am currently at work on verifying them. Thanks for your patience. ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ― Padenton| ✉ 21:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
-
E.M.Gregory and
Fayenatic london: With regard to notability, as mentioned above, I've added citations for two more Lowell Thomas awards from The Society of American Travel Writers. Articles of Mandel's for The Washington Post won bronze Lowell Thomas awards in 2003 and 2006. (Not that you perhaps care, but these are, at least given the evidence I've encountered, the premier national awards for American travel journalism.) Thanks for your patience, and best wishes.
ReidWilliam (
talk)
05:14, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
KEEP(iVote above) I regularly participate in author and journalist AFDs. The awards for travel writing and reviews of Mandel's children's books in significant media combine to pass the standards now being applied to authors and journalists. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:11, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Struck duplicate !vote; only one allowed. North America 1000 08:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:14, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Keep but TNT - agree with E.M.Gregory; meets GNG but this is a blow up, start over. Dizzying amount of references; choose the top and make it concise. —Мандичка YO 😜 19:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. North America 1000 08:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep. The author's notability has been established. SouthernNights ( talk) 15:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Peter Mandel ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article does not establish notability per WP:AUTHOR. It has been created by an WP:SPA ( Special:Contributions/ReidWilliam) who has included many citations, without any effort to format them properly. The citations merely demonstrate that the writer has been published in multiple media; they are not about him as a subject. – Fayenatic L ondon 08:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Responding here, as may be evident, to the comments and recommended deletion made by Fayenatic London 08:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC).
Would it be possible for other Wikipedia editors to review this, and the above, and add their comments and suggestions? Many thanks.
In a portion of the explanation for recommended deletion, it's noted that the article "has been created by an WP:SPA who has included many citations, without any effort to format them properly." No doubt there may be many formatting shortcomings. Is it reasonable and fair to ask if the editor could offer specifics so repairs can be made? Thank you.
In a portion of the explanation, it's mentioned that the article's "Citations merely demonstrate that the writer has been published in multiple media; they are not about him as a subject." I think this may be the core point, unless I'm mistaken.
In response, the following are citations from the current 'References' section of the article that discuss Mandel as a subject. [Fyi, the reference sources, below, "Contemporary Authors" and "Something About the Author," are the major library reference volumes for American children's book authors.]:
a) Contemporary Authors (Gale Publishing, Volume 152): http://www.galenet.com/servlet/LitIndex/hits;jsessionid=55205194A4C7DF090337077DC3DE748F?r=d&origSearch=false&o=DocTitle&n=10&l=12&c=1&secondary=false&u=LitIndex&t=KW&s=1&PN=0000120523 ;
b) Something About The Author (Gale Publishing, Volumes 87, 238): http://www.galenet.com/servlet/LitIndex/hits;jsessionid=55205194A4C7DF090337077DC3DE748F?r=d&origSearch=false&o=DocTitle&n=10&l=12&c=1&secondary=false&u=LitIndex&t=KW&s=1&PN=0000120523 ;
c) Article about Peter Mandel, The Fall River Herald News, March 16, 2013: “Children's book author Peter Mandel to share publishing tips.” http://www.heraldnews.com/newsnow/x2082713507/Childrens-book-author-Peter-Mandel-to-share-publishing-tips
As well, the following citations from 'External Links' discuss Mandel in the same vein, though to a lesser degree, as a subject:
d) List of notable alumni in Wikipedia article about New York's City and Country School[1]. /info/en/?search=City_and_Country_School
e) Chapter on Peter Mandel in anthology, Authors in the Pantry: Recipes, Stories, and More by Sharron L . McElmeel, Deborah L. McElmeel (Libraries Unlimited, 2006), ISBN 1591583217; pages 173-176. http://books.google.com/books?id=YcpoqurBhhsC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22peter+Mandel%22+authors+in+the+pantry&source=bl&ots=IARzqYMTSA&sig=dW_z2HBYhXm09ogihiOYRPk-1ZQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3nxgUejoMKjk2AWnq4CQCg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22peter%20Mandel%22%20authors%20in%20the%20pantry&f=false
f) Citation of article by Peter Mandel in book, Sacred Stacks: The Higher Purpose of Libraries And Librarianship by Nancy Kalikow Maxwell (American Library Association, 2006); ISBN 0838909175; p. 85. http://books.google.com/books?id=avD3XicGsh4C&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=%22Peter+Mandel%22+sacred+stacks&source=bl&ots=2mbsT_xcC1&sig=0-DzTOddALJcrf1KgU4es0g_bxc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=33NgUeCkCOKa2gWbw4CYAg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Peter%20Mandel%22%20sacred%20stacks&f=false
g) Interview with Peter Mandel on website for guidebook, Travel Writing 2.0: Earning Money from Your Travels in the New Media Landscape by Tim Leffel (Splinter Press, 2010); ISBN 1609101081, ISBN 978-1609101084. http://travelwriting2.com/an-interview-with-peter-mandel/
h) Interview with Peter Mandel, Kidoinfo.com website: http://kidoinfo.com/ri/local-author-peter-mandel-talks-books-botswana-burgers/
Thank you for your consideration. ReidWilliam (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC) ReidWilliam ( talk) 05:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of News media-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 11:06, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: The first two links, galenet.com, appear to be a private database providing access only to registered users. I cannot retrieve anything on those URLs. Please note that linking to search results should normally be avoided.
- Please desist from claiming evidence from his entry in the Wikipedia page about his school; that list only cites his own website in support.
- What you need to do is to demonstrate that the various published material about him meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability in Wikipedia:Notability (people). If he does not meet the specific criteria in WP:AUTHOR then fall back on WP:ANYBIO or WP:BASIC. The interviews with him (e.g. c, g and h in your list above) may be your best bet, but they strike me as mutual promotion for the author and the publisher, as opposed to truly demonstrating notability.
- As for formatting help, I already left you a note on your talk page with links to WP:CHEATSHEET and WP:CITE. – Fayenatic L ondon 16:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Responding here to the latest comments re: recommended deletion made by Fayenatic London just above:
After I'd supplied citations from two of the major library reference sources for children's book authors here in the U.S.: 'Contemporary Authors' (Gale Publishing, Volume 152) and 'Something About The Author' (Gale Publishing, Volumes 87, 238), Fayenatic London responded as follows: "The first two links, galenet.com, appear to be a private database providing access only to registered users. I cannot retrieve anything on those URLs. Please note that linking to search results should normally be avoided." This raises, I think, some fairly broad-based issues about deletion suggestions re: American children's book authors. These two sources are, if you'll research them a bit, absolutely fundamental library references in the children's book field. Both are ubiquitous in the U.S. and highly selective in terms of included authors. Librarians and those in the reference field will be astonished if they cannot serve as Wikipedia citations for 'notability.' As editors must surely realize, like many other major library reference sources, they have to be available only to registered users and to library patrons, or face becoming quickly obsolete. Would it satisfy Fayenatic London if I emailed scanned copies of the entries on Mandel from each of the volumes? I'd be happy to do that in the hope that it would, perhaps, resolve this.
Fayenatic London adds the following, a bit later on. "The interviews with him [Mandel] (e.g. c, g and h in your list above) may be your best bet, but they strike me as mutual promotion for the author and the publisher, as opposed to truly demonstrating notability." In response, I'm sorry to say this, but I'm reaching a point of some despair, after a lot of work. "Mutual promotion for the author and publisher?" I think there may be a misunderstanding of what each represents. Let me try again. The following first citation is an article from a daily newspaper in New England, the region of the U.S. where the author lives. It's not an advertisement, or a press release, but a reported article in the most basic sense: "Article about Peter Mandel, The Fall River Herald News, March 16, 2013: “Children's book author Peter Mandel to share publishing tips.” http://www.heraldnews.com/newsnow/x2082713507/Childrens-book-author-Peter-Mandel-to-share-publishing-tips The second citation mentioned (which is completely separate from the first) is an "Interview with Peter Mandel on website for guidebook, Travel Writing 2.0: Earning Money from Your Travels in the New Media Landscape by Tim Leffel (Splinter Press, 2010); ISBN 1609101081, ISBN 978-1609101084. http://travelwriting2.com/an-interview-with-peter-mandel/ Please note: The interview is on the website, not for promotion, but because it is included in the book, itself. The third mentioned (again, a completely separate example) is an "Interview with Peter Mandel, Kidoinfo.com website: http://kidoinfo.com/ri/local-author-peter-mandel-talks-books-botswana-burgers/" Please note: There's no "publisher" involved. No promotional intent. It's simply an informational feature--an interview w. a regional children's book author and journalist for a Southern New England audience. Please let me know if there are other questions, or if I wasn't clear. Thanks. ReidWilliam ( talk) 04:24, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- I want to affirm that I have examined at all 4 sources under discussion above, and User:ReidWilliam is absolutely correct and accurate (I have the privilege of access to a major library system). This was the reason for my SPEEDY KEEP iVote. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 21:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
SPEEDYKEEP Mandel is clearly notable, clearly sufficient material is readily found to pass GNG. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 13:54, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- User:ReidWilliam, welcome. I'm sorry you got jumped on your maiden effort editing Wikipedia. editing pages is really not that hard, it just takes a little while to get the knack. I could wish that User:Fayenatic london had spent a little time walking you through the necessary edits, instead of taking a page on a patently notable writer to AFD, but, well, it's how things work here. Please don't be discouraged. There are user-friendly links to how to edit atop your talk page. And I do hope you'll stick around, lots of pages on topics you know/care care about need attention. (I assert this with confidence, since we have so many pages in need of attention) E.M.Gregory ( talk) 13:54, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
To E.M.Gregory: Thank you very much for the encouraging words with regard to editing pages overall, and your support regarding the Mandel page. I'm grateful. (Do you know if there is a point where, if others concur, the Articles Proposed for Deletion tag can be removed?). Thanks once again, and best wishes. ReidWilliam ( talk) 17:50, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: AfD discussions normally run for a week. If there is not much participation, they may be extended. When an administrator closes the discussion, s/he will remove the tag if the article is kept. – Fayenatic L ondon 21:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- To begin the effort to improve the Wikipedia article in question, have added, under 'External Links', a new link to an article about Mandel as an author (in response to editorial suggestions re: notability): "Profile of Peter Mandel as part of the "Inside the Writer’s Studio" series about authors on the Read Local/Barrington Books (R.I.) website: http://thestudioatbb.com/readlocal/2012/10/14/inside-the-writers-studio-peter-mandel/" ReidWilliam ( talk) 19:09, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- Continuing the effort to improve the article in terms of notability, have added a reference (under "Works") to a Publishers Weekly book review of one of the author's titles and the corresponding link: "Jackhammer Sam (Peter Mandel, Author; David Catrow, Illustrator)," Publishers Weekly, October 17, 2011. http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-59643-034-1 ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- @ ReidWilliam: @ E.M.Gregory: I have "wikified" the external links section, and the first group of citations under "References". Please do likewise for the rest. Either refer to WP:FOOTNOTE or just copy the method that I used. It can only help your arguments to keep the page if it looks decent – which it still does not at the moment. – Fayenatic L ondon 16:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- To: Fayenatic london: Thank you very much for doing that. When I'm back home tomorrow, I'll get to work on that--first thing. Thanks, again. ReidWilliam ( talk) 18:17, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- Have begun work on 'wikifying' References section using editor's example and WP:FOOTNOTE. Am trying to do this as carefully as I can--though am still puzzling out some aspects. For one, I can't seem to discover how to remove an extra line space and a [2] at the top of the References section. If anyone can help with that, I'd be grateful. Many thanks.
ReidWilliam (
talk)
21:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- ReidWilliam: I did it in stages to try and make it easy for you to follow. I've just finished number 2 for you. Read the notes I left in the edit summaries ( page history) too. – Fayenatic L ondon 22:00, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london: I really appreciate that. Thank you. (I'll keep plugging away on it, until I get it right.) ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:21, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- Am continuing work on 'wikifying' References section, using editor's examples and WP:FOOTNOTE. (My apologies for the blunders I'm still making.) Have somehow caused multiple footnote numbers: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] to appear once again at the top of References section, and can't seem to delete them. Will keep trying. Also, though I didn't intend this, the article titles are appearing in an italic font. ReidWilliam ( talk) 22:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london and E.M.Gregory: Have continued to work on 'wikifying' References section. (Hope it's looking slightly cleaner.) I apologize that I still haven't figured out how to delete the multiple footnote numbers: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], that have popped up at the top of References section. ReidWilliam ( talk) 22:22, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
- Fayenatic london and E.M.Gregory I'm continuing to work on 'wikifying' the Mandel page, and am (finally) repairing the footnotes and numbering. (I think I've finally figured that aspect out.) Bear with me, please. ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:50, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for finishing that, ReidWilliam. Well, the page is now readable, and I have rearranged the content more like a standard biography. It probably still contains too many details and quotations about the children's books. Most of the links are just book reviews and examples of Mandel's press articles, proving only that he is a journalist, rather than a notable one; and he has only won one minor award, for a travel article. I am therefore still not convinced that the article demonstrates notability by Wikipedia's standards. Most of the web links that are claimed to be articles about Peter Mandel, e.g. (e) above, are primarily about local events at which he would be appearing. The "Chapter on Peter Mandel in anthology, Authors in the Pantry" ((c) above) is self-contributed and not significant. Despite the first appearance of a sea of citations, I therefore dispute E.M.Gregory's claim that Mandel meets the general notability guideline. By falling back on GNG, E.M.Gregory, were you accepting that the subject does not meet any of WP:AUTHOR, WP:ANYBIO or WP:BASIC? – Fayenatic L ondon 14:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- It was generous of User:Fayenatic london to clean up the formatting. The text still has a long way to go before it approaches the proper tone, content for an encyclopedia entry. There is less than I thought at first look (above) And the article is stuffed with articles by Mandel (also Amazon.com and Goodreads) that should not be on the page. However, journalism prizes and finalist position in major competitions are significant things. As is having a picture book listed on sundry "picks" lists in the trade press. So I do think that Mandel squeaks past WP:AUTHOR, "multiple independent periodical articles or reviews." Notability hinges on the reviews in the trade press (aimed at librarians and booksellers), the journalism prize, publications of multiple children's book, that are reviewed in selective trade publications: Kirkus and Publishers Weekly, some with stars. On this Chicago Tribune review of Jackhammer Sam [1]. and on this article/interview in a general circulation publication [2], the Fall River The Herald News. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 15:55, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- E.M.Gregory and Fayenatic london: Thanks to you both for the editing and formatting help re: the Mandel page, and for your latest round of comments. With regard to notability, I've gone back and done a bit more research. Since it sounds like book reviews in major periodicals, significant awards, and work being anthologized are key, I've found some other relevant citations that I hadn't been aware of. These include several more of the author's books being reviewed in Publishers Weekly, Kirkus and The Horn Book; three journalism awards; and an anthology and edited collection that include the author's work. Am working on double-checking the citations. Please, if you would, give me a few hours on this. Many thanks. ReidWilliam ( talk) 18:06, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- E.M.Gregory and Fayenatic london: More to come, but as noted above, I've done some further research. With regard to the notability question, I've added citations for several more reviews of Mandel's books in major journals (Publishers Weekly, Kirkus). Have put these under 'External Links' so as not to disrupt the formatting. As well, I've added citations, under 'Other Works,' for two edited anthologies that include the author's work. One is an older collection of animal related essays in the "Chicken Soup" series, the other a recent anthology of travel journalism. There's another anthology, and two other journalistic awards that have popped up as well; am currently at work on verifying them. Thanks for your patience. ReidWilliam ( talk) 20:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ― Padenton| ✉ 21:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
-
E.M.Gregory and
Fayenatic london: With regard to notability, as mentioned above, I've added citations for two more Lowell Thomas awards from The Society of American Travel Writers. Articles of Mandel's for The Washington Post won bronze Lowell Thomas awards in 2003 and 2006. (Not that you perhaps care, but these are, at least given the evidence I've encountered, the premier national awards for American travel journalism.) Thanks for your patience, and best wishes.
ReidWilliam (
talk)
05:14, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
KEEP(iVote above) I regularly participate in author and journalist AFDs. The awards for travel writing and reviews of Mandel's children's books in significant media combine to pass the standards now being applied to authors and journalists. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:11, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Struck duplicate !vote; only one allowed. North America 1000 08:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 19:14, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Keep but TNT - agree with E.M.Gregory; meets GNG but this is a blow up, start over. Dizzying amount of references; choose the top and make it concise. —Мандичка YO 😜 19:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. North America 1000 08:25, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.