The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This series between two in-state schools has been played for a long time, however, I don't see any evidence that it is an established, legit "rivalry". The biggest piece of evidence to support this claim, in my view, is the fact that Temple has only beaten Penn State four times in 45 meetings. There is no name for this rivalry, no trophy exchanged and no true animosity between the schools. This would be comparable to a MemphisāTennessee football rivalry page. (Memphis and Tennessee are in the same state and have played a number of times through the decades but only 1 Memphis victory). When Temple wins, it is like winning the lottery for Temple and being mauled by a polar bear and black bear in the same day for Penn State. A Penn State victory is essentially expected by both sides and outsiders when they do play and there is no significant outside attention given to the matchup between these two squads. This does not have the makings of a "rivalry".
CalebHughes (
talk) 18:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete. Anything this lopsided doesn't qualify, or as Penn State football historian and author Lou Prato stated, "Templeā¦Never going to be a rivalry."
[1] That's good enough for me.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 22:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment This nomination is written entirely in the present tense. As noted in a similar AfD, Wikipedia doesn't exist to document things in the present moment, and the title doesn't imply currency. However, I see no indication in the article that a rivalry ever really existed. Acroterion(talk) 23:41, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete, as a Google search brings up the following sources on the first page: "Itās hard to call Temple-Penn State a rivalry because Penn State has dominated the all-time series..." (
The Temple News) "Many point to Penn State as the Owlsā biggest enemy, but four wins in 45 meetings is not considered a rivalry." (
underdogdynasty.com) "But for now, the Lions and Owls will continue to meet, and even though thereās no proclaimed rivalry" (
Penn State Daily Collegian) "...it will mark the 40th meeting between the two in-state rivals. I use the term "rival" loosely, because frankly it's not much of a rivalry." (
SB Nation)
Doesn't seem like anyone considers it a rivalry, or, for that matter, ever has.
PCN02WPS (
talk |
contribs) 01:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete- Playing another sports team does not automatically entail a ārivalryā. There are actually more sources here arguing there is not a rivalry.
TheGracefulSlick (
talk) 03:08, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and PCN02WPS.
Cbl62 (
talk) 05:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete just playing each other often does not make it a rivalry. Fails
WP:GNG.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 12:40, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Changing to Keep after new sources and research have been provided, it seems to me that this rivalry now passes
WP:GNG. Wow.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 15:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
*
WP:SNOWdelete I did search, because there certainly could be a significant rivalry I happen never to have heard of. But Penn State v. Temple is totally
WP:MILL. The only puzzle is why someone went to the trouble of creating such a an article.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 14:33, 2 August 2018 (UTC)strike comment, per new sources brought.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 13:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep Comment - nominator fails to invoke
WP:GNG and the above discussion mostly follows suit on a non-GNG basis.
Newspapers.com archives many regional newspapers. These papers do demonstrate "significant coverage" as required by GNG, including:
1976 (The Progress) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/60881506/ "Penn State has beaten Temple 10 times in 14 meetings. There has been one tie. The rivalry' resumed last vear for the first time since 1953."
1977 (AP/The Evening Standard) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/27914862/ "How does Pat Carey, doctor sound to you? Carey right now is concentrating on getting ready to quarterback Temple against Penn State Saturday in the heated state football rivalry."
1980 (Philadelphia Daily News) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/185681638/ "Temple-Penn State is on the verge of becoming more of a football rivalry than anyone ever anticipated."
1986 (Tyrone Daily Herald) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/13488146/ "Penn State has won eleven straight games in its series with Temple, which dates from 1931. The Nittany Lions have also captured 18 of the last 19 games in the rivalry, a streak interrupted only by a 7-7 tie in 1950."
1991 (Indiana Gazette) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/14273537/ "Penn State beat Temple for the 17th straight time and boosted its- series lead to 25-3-1 in the intrastate' rivalry. Temple hasn't defeated Penn State since 1941."
2010 (AP/The Republic) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/149077746/ "If Penn State is Temple's measuring stick, the Owls have been off by miles. This Pennsylvania rivalry is decidedly tilted in the Nittany Lions' favor."
This is "significant coverage," includes five different decades, and includes AP sourcing. As we're approaching a week since nomination, I'd ask any closing admin to allow time for additional review of the above, rather than closing based on the prior comments.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 00:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep - per UW Dawgs' sources, numerous reliable sources regard this as a rivalry, even if it is a lopsided one. That's good enough for me.
Rlendog (
talk) 00:12, 9 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. No valid reason to keep / contest the nomination
Redditaddict69(talk)(cont) 17:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep in view of UW Dawgs' addition of 7 sources from 1940 to 2010 (
UW Dawgs I hope they will make it to the article before the AFD discussion is over, as it will help the reviewers), likely to be more. In my view they justify GNG. --
1l2l3k (
talk) 17:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Mere trivial mention of a "rivalry", per
WP:GNG, does not make it so. There is stronger evidence of a rivalry not existing between these schools than there is in support of a rivalry. There isn't enough to support
WP:GNG. UTEP-UTSA football rivalry was deleted in spite of the fact that media sources proclaimed it a rivalry. There must be in-depth coverage beyond mere trivial mention,
UW Dawgs.
CalebHughes (
talk) 17:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Agreed, done. 5 cites from 5 decades including 2 from Associated Press.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 19:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete I'm a sports fan but even I can't justify calling this a rivalry. The games get the expected local and Pennsylvania state coverage, as every game does, but the true test is whether this is covered in national papers (doesn't seem to be) and by what is reported besides the games themselves (nothing that I can see). A true rivalry exists even when the teams are not playing - that doesn't seem to be the case here, as pointed out above. No trophy, no reporting on the subject when the games aren't being played, etc.
TimTempleton(talk)(cont) 21:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
There is clear national, local, and AP-syndicated coverage over decades from
WP:RS which go well-beyond GNG.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 01:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, āāĀ
Mr. GuyeĀ (
talk)Ā (
contribs)ā 04:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete - just because two sides have played each other does not make their playing each other notable enough a rivalry to have a place in Wikipedia.
Vorbee (
talk) 07:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Consensus seems to be delete. I hope this discussion is closed very soon and the page deleted in a swift manner also.
CalebHughes (
talk) 13:50, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep Per new sources showing it passes GNG.
Smartyllama (
talk) 12:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This series between two in-state schools has been played for a long time, however, I don't see any evidence that it is an established, legit "rivalry". The biggest piece of evidence to support this claim, in my view, is the fact that Temple has only beaten Penn State four times in 45 meetings. There is no name for this rivalry, no trophy exchanged and no true animosity between the schools. This would be comparable to a MemphisāTennessee football rivalry page. (Memphis and Tennessee are in the same state and have played a number of times through the decades but only 1 Memphis victory). When Temple wins, it is like winning the lottery for Temple and being mauled by a polar bear and black bear in the same day for Penn State. A Penn State victory is essentially expected by both sides and outsiders when they do play and there is no significant outside attention given to the matchup between these two squads. This does not have the makings of a "rivalry".
CalebHughes (
talk) 18:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete. Anything this lopsided doesn't qualify, or as Penn State football historian and author Lou Prato stated, "Templeā¦Never going to be a rivalry."
[1] That's good enough for me.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 22:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Comment This nomination is written entirely in the present tense. As noted in a similar AfD, Wikipedia doesn't exist to document things in the present moment, and the title doesn't imply currency. However, I see no indication in the article that a rivalry ever really existed. Acroterion(talk) 23:41, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete, as a Google search brings up the following sources on the first page: "Itās hard to call Temple-Penn State a rivalry because Penn State has dominated the all-time series..." (
The Temple News) "Many point to Penn State as the Owlsā biggest enemy, but four wins in 45 meetings is not considered a rivalry." (
underdogdynasty.com) "But for now, the Lions and Owls will continue to meet, and even though thereās no proclaimed rivalry" (
Penn State Daily Collegian) "...it will mark the 40th meeting between the two in-state rivals. I use the term "rival" loosely, because frankly it's not much of a rivalry." (
SB Nation)
Doesn't seem like anyone considers it a rivalry, or, for that matter, ever has.
PCN02WPS (
talk |
contribs) 01:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete- Playing another sports team does not automatically entail a ārivalryā. There are actually more sources here arguing there is not a rivalry.
TheGracefulSlick (
talk) 03:08, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom and PCN02WPS.
Cbl62 (
talk) 05:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete just playing each other often does not make it a rivalry. Fails
WP:GNG.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 12:40, 1 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Changing to Keep after new sources and research have been provided, it seems to me that this rivalry now passes
WP:GNG. Wow.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 15:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
*
WP:SNOWdelete I did search, because there certainly could be a significant rivalry I happen never to have heard of. But Penn State v. Temple is totally
WP:MILL. The only puzzle is why someone went to the trouble of creating such a an article.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 14:33, 2 August 2018 (UTC)strike comment, per new sources brought.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 13:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep Comment - nominator fails to invoke
WP:GNG and the above discussion mostly follows suit on a non-GNG basis.
Newspapers.com archives many regional newspapers. These papers do demonstrate "significant coverage" as required by GNG, including:
1976 (The Progress) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/60881506/ "Penn State has beaten Temple 10 times in 14 meetings. There has been one tie. The rivalry' resumed last vear for the first time since 1953."
1977 (AP/The Evening Standard) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/27914862/ "How does Pat Carey, doctor sound to you? Carey right now is concentrating on getting ready to quarterback Temple against Penn State Saturday in the heated state football rivalry."
1980 (Philadelphia Daily News) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/185681638/ "Temple-Penn State is on the verge of becoming more of a football rivalry than anyone ever anticipated."
1986 (Tyrone Daily Herald) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/13488146/ "Penn State has won eleven straight games in its series with Temple, which dates from 1931. The Nittany Lions have also captured 18 of the last 19 games in the rivalry, a streak interrupted only by a 7-7 tie in 1950."
1991 (Indiana Gazette) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/14273537/ "Penn State beat Temple for the 17th straight time and boosted its- series lead to 25-3-1 in the intrastate' rivalry. Temple hasn't defeated Penn State since 1941."
2010 (AP/The Republic) -
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/149077746/ "If Penn State is Temple's measuring stick, the Owls have been off by miles. This Pennsylvania rivalry is decidedly tilted in the Nittany Lions' favor."
This is "significant coverage," includes five different decades, and includes AP sourcing. As we're approaching a week since nomination, I'd ask any closing admin to allow time for additional review of the above, rather than closing based on the prior comments.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 00:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep - per UW Dawgs' sources, numerous reliable sources regard this as a rivalry, even if it is a lopsided one. That's good enough for me.
Rlendog (
talk) 00:12, 9 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete per nom. No valid reason to keep / contest the nomination
Redditaddict69(talk)(cont) 17:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep in view of UW Dawgs' addition of 7 sources from 1940 to 2010 (
UW Dawgs I hope they will make it to the article before the AFD discussion is over, as it will help the reviewers), likely to be more. In my view they justify GNG. --
1l2l3k (
talk) 17:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Mere trivial mention of a "rivalry", per
WP:GNG, does not make it so. There is stronger evidence of a rivalry not existing between these schools than there is in support of a rivalry. There isn't enough to support
WP:GNG. UTEP-UTSA football rivalry was deleted in spite of the fact that media sources proclaimed it a rivalry. There must be in-depth coverage beyond mere trivial mention,
UW Dawgs.
CalebHughes (
talk) 17:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Agreed, done. 5 cites from 5 decades including 2 from Associated Press.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 19:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete I'm a sports fan but even I can't justify calling this a rivalry. The games get the expected local and Pennsylvania state coverage, as every game does, but the true test is whether this is covered in national papers (doesn't seem to be) and by what is reported besides the games themselves (nothing that I can see). A true rivalry exists even when the teams are not playing - that doesn't seem to be the case here, as pointed out above. No trophy, no reporting on the subject when the games aren't being played, etc.
TimTempleton(talk)(cont) 21:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
There is clear national, local, and AP-syndicated coverage over decades from
WP:RS which go well-beyond GNG.
UW Dawgs (
talk) 01:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, āāĀ
Mr. GuyeĀ (
talk)Ā (
contribs)ā 04:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Delete - just because two sides have played each other does not make their playing each other notable enough a rivalry to have a place in Wikipedia.
Vorbee (
talk) 07:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Consensus seems to be delete. I hope this discussion is closed very soon and the page deleted in a swift manner also.
CalebHughes (
talk) 13:50, 11 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Keep Per new sources showing it passes GNG.
Smartyllama (
talk) 12:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.