- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The question is not whether the proposal suggested in the article was made but whether the content of the article can be verified through reliable sources. If those reliable sources are located in the future, this article can be reconsidered but right now, it appears that the sourcing doesn't support the claims of the article. Liz Read! Talk! 19:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
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- Order-State of Burgundy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Most of the relevant information on the Order-State of Burgundy is either not cited or comes from discussion board. The main citations are to discussion boards which are not considered Reliable sources and violate policies of No original research and Verifiability. Their are no reliable sources fo information I can find on it online for the topic. It appears to be related more to an online game " Hearts of Iron" Myotus ( talk) 19:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bilateral relations, History, Military, Geography, Belgium, France, and Germany. Skynxnex ( talk) 21:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - This was apparently a real plan. All the actual information on a state in Burgundy appears to come from a memoir by someone who was a doctor for Himmler, as stated in The Time article. Text of this memoir
here. The Time article given is also just a summary of this as well. The Wallonien also says "His [Leon Degrelle's] purpose was actually historic: to make a great Burgundy with the southern part of Belgium and a part of northern France. His dream: to recreate the duchy of Charles the Bold before his death at Nancy in 1477." (this is all it seemingly says about Burgundy). The forum post appears to have used the memoir as a source but not everything in the forum appears to be in the memoir, at least the copy I could find. The unsourced paragraph in the background section (and every detail originally given about the state when the article was created) is entirely from the forum post as well. The name and maybe some details appear to have been made up from a Hearts of Iron mod, as it only appears to be called Burgundy in actual sources, and looking up the name given only gives results for HoI discussions and Polandball.
I'm not voting though, there could be things I'm missing.I will put a vote. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)- Thanks for finding the memoir text and your commments! It still is concerning this is only from a memoir and that there are no actual official documents (or any other collaborating documents) supporting a plan for the creation of a Burgundian Free State. The book that is cited "The Wallonien" appears to by Richard Landwehr, Jean-Louis Roba, and Ray Merriam, has not undergone any academic review. It also concerns me that one of the authors, Richard Landwehr, his book 'Revolutionary Armies in the Modern Era: A Revisionist Approach' was reviewed in the academic journal, 'The American Historical Review' was described as "too flawed to be recommended as an undergraduate text" The reviews author, historian S.P. MacKenzie also describes Landwehr as an "extreme admirer [from] the fringes of the far-right." MacKenzie connects Landwehr with the contemporary Waffen-SS historical revisionism. (Brown, Howard (1998). "Untitled". The American Historical Review. volume: 103, Issue: 5, page: 1561)
- I still recommend deleting the page but I would support adding a section in
Felix Kersten's page (Himmler's doctor) on the Burgundian Free State in reference to his memoir.
Myotus (
talk)
14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there are definitely large swathes of the article that need to be addressed, and some that need to be outright deleted. That being said, while some of the evidence fronted in the article is shaky at best, there is likely a wealth of knowledge about this specific plan either lost to time (due to NS Germany's purge of sensitive documents) or floating about. If such is not to be the case, I agree with your proposal to add it to
Felix Kersten's page, although moving it to the page referring to
NS Germany's planned "Reserved Zone" in Eastern France may suffice.
Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (
talk)
06:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- We know very little about Himmler's plans, but according to this source, Burgundy apparently was supposed to be a "supranational Aryan state":
- [1] 2804:29B8:5183:100C:AC26:3A2B:52BF:D4FD ( talk) 21:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there are definitely large swathes of the article that need to be addressed, and some that need to be outright deleted. That being said, while some of the evidence fronted in the article is shaky at best, there is likely a wealth of knowledge about this specific plan either lost to time (due to NS Germany's purge of sensitive documents) or floating about. If such is not to be the case, I agree with your proposal to add it to
Felix Kersten's page, although moving it to the page referring to
NS Germany's planned "Reserved Zone" in Eastern France may suffice.
Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (
talk)
06:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - Unless better sourcing is found, I don't think there's really enough to go on here. So far this is just seems like something Himmler brought up once to his doctor and that a memoir is the best source on this. If the plans were brought up in official documents or were approved by Hitler (which it would need to be to actually happen), you'd think there would be more talk or sources about it. The fact that most of the information about the state used in the article was sourced to a German alternative history forum post and that the name of the article seems to be taken from a game mod and not from real sources doesn't help. Also see Myotus's comment below mine. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 00:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - Himmler did have a plan to form an SS state in Burgundy, whether Hitler supported it is another matter, but it should be covered in an article. --
2804:29B8:5183:100C:1CCC:1435:AF55:35B9 (
talk)
03:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The deletion request is not about whether Hitler supported it. It is about the lack of any documentation other than Felix Kersten's (Himmler's doctor) personal memoir (it is important to point out the several other claims in Kersten's memoir have been disputed), posts on a blog, and a dubious book by a discredited author. Myotus ( talk) 15:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - It's most likely a real plan. If it is, we should improve the article with better sourcing, not scrap it altogether.
191.135.55.141 (
talk)
18:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- If better sourcing (following Wikipedia's guidelines for relevant and reliable sources) can be found the article can be recreated but the misleading article should removed. Myotus ( talk) 15:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. The question is not whether the proposal suggested in the article was made but whether the content of the article can be verified through reliable sources. If those reliable sources are located in the future, this article can be reconsidered but right now, it appears that the sourcing doesn't support the claims of the article. Liz Read! Talk! 19:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Order-State of Burgundy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Most of the relevant information on the Order-State of Burgundy is either not cited or comes from discussion board. The main citations are to discussion boards which are not considered Reliable sources and violate policies of No original research and Verifiability. Their are no reliable sources fo information I can find on it online for the topic. It appears to be related more to an online game " Hearts of Iron" Myotus ( talk) 19:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bilateral relations, History, Military, Geography, Belgium, France, and Germany. Skynxnex ( talk) 21:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - This was apparently a real plan. All the actual information on a state in Burgundy appears to come from a memoir by someone who was a doctor for Himmler, as stated in The Time article. Text of this memoir
here. The Time article given is also just a summary of this as well. The Wallonien also says "His [Leon Degrelle's] purpose was actually historic: to make a great Burgundy with the southern part of Belgium and a part of northern France. His dream: to recreate the duchy of Charles the Bold before his death at Nancy in 1477." (this is all it seemingly says about Burgundy). The forum post appears to have used the memoir as a source but not everything in the forum appears to be in the memoir, at least the copy I could find. The unsourced paragraph in the background section (and every detail originally given about the state when the article was created) is entirely from the forum post as well. The name and maybe some details appear to have been made up from a Hearts of Iron mod, as it only appears to be called Burgundy in actual sources, and looking up the name given only gives results for HoI discussions and Polandball.
I'm not voting though, there could be things I'm missing.I will put a vote. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2024 (UTC)- Thanks for finding the memoir text and your commments! It still is concerning this is only from a memoir and that there are no actual official documents (or any other collaborating documents) supporting a plan for the creation of a Burgundian Free State. The book that is cited "The Wallonien" appears to by Richard Landwehr, Jean-Louis Roba, and Ray Merriam, has not undergone any academic review. It also concerns me that one of the authors, Richard Landwehr, his book 'Revolutionary Armies in the Modern Era: A Revisionist Approach' was reviewed in the academic journal, 'The American Historical Review' was described as "too flawed to be recommended as an undergraduate text" The reviews author, historian S.P. MacKenzie also describes Landwehr as an "extreme admirer [from] the fringes of the far-right." MacKenzie connects Landwehr with the contemporary Waffen-SS historical revisionism. (Brown, Howard (1998). "Untitled". The American Historical Review. volume: 103, Issue: 5, page: 1561)
- I still recommend deleting the page but I would support adding a section in
Felix Kersten's page (Himmler's doctor) on the Burgundian Free State in reference to his memoir.
Myotus (
talk)
14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there are definitely large swathes of the article that need to be addressed, and some that need to be outright deleted. That being said, while some of the evidence fronted in the article is shaky at best, there is likely a wealth of knowledge about this specific plan either lost to time (due to NS Germany's purge of sensitive documents) or floating about. If such is not to be the case, I agree with your proposal to add it to
Felix Kersten's page, although moving it to the page referring to
NS Germany's planned "Reserved Zone" in Eastern France may suffice.
Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (
talk)
06:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- We know very little about Himmler's plans, but according to this source, Burgundy apparently was supposed to be a "supranational Aryan state":
- [1] 2804:29B8:5183:100C:AC26:3A2B:52BF:D4FD ( talk) 21:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that there are definitely large swathes of the article that need to be addressed, and some that need to be outright deleted. That being said, while some of the evidence fronted in the article is shaky at best, there is likely a wealth of knowledge about this specific plan either lost to time (due to NS Germany's purge of sensitive documents) or floating about. If such is not to be the case, I agree with your proposal to add it to
Felix Kersten's page, although moving it to the page referring to
NS Germany's planned "Reserved Zone" in Eastern France may suffice.
Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (
talk)
06:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - Unless better sourcing is found, I don't think there's really enough to go on here. So far this is just seems like something Himmler brought up once to his doctor and that a memoir is the best source on this. If the plans were brought up in official documents or were approved by Hitler (which it would need to be to actually happen), you'd think there would be more talk or sources about it. The fact that most of the information about the state used in the article was sourced to a German alternative history forum post and that the name of the article seems to be taken from a game mod and not from real sources doesn't help. Also see Myotus's comment below mine. StreetcarEnjoyer (talk) 00:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - Himmler did have a plan to form an SS state in Burgundy, whether Hitler supported it is another matter, but it should be covered in an article. --
2804:29B8:5183:100C:1CCC:1435:AF55:35B9 (
talk)
03:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The deletion request is not about whether Hitler supported it. It is about the lack of any documentation other than Felix Kersten's (Himmler's doctor) personal memoir (it is important to point out the several other claims in Kersten's memoir have been disputed), posts on a blog, and a dubious book by a discredited author. Myotus ( talk) 15:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep - It's most likely a real plan. If it is, we should improve the article with better sourcing, not scrap it altogether.
191.135.55.141 (
talk)
18:02, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- If better sourcing (following Wikipedia's guidelines for relevant and reliable sources) can be found the article can be recreated but the misleading article should removed. Myotus ( talk) 15:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.