- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Good consensus here that even if these places wouldn't meet WP:GEOLAND today, there are sufficient WP:RS showing that they did at some point in the past, and that's all we need. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Orbitello, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Also nominating the following in the same county which also map to farmhouses:
- Herman, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pinon, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pleasant Valley, Lincoln County, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Towerspring, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Another GNIS/post office synthesis in Kansas, but in this case the aerial makes the issue extremely clear: it plunks you down on a farmhouse. GNIS cites "The Official State Atlas of Kansas, Philadelphia: L.H. Everts and Company, 1887", and while I haven't seen this exact map, I've seen similar maps from the same era, and they tend to label residences with the name of the occupant; therefore this "historical locale" is in fact the same farm as exists today. You can call that a "settlement", but it's not a town, and it almost certainly never was a town, and I don't see the notability of every farmhouse in Kansas or anywhere else in the late 1800s that had a name next to it on a map. Mangoe ( talk) 18:09, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 18:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 18:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Comment defined as a historical locale by the US GNIS; a locale is: "Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams (battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill)." Probably not notable. SportingFlyer ( talk) 18:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- keep essentially for same reason stated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monroe, Kansas. Once-populated places, even if abandoned, retain their notability. Notability is not temporary.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:43, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please go back and read the nomination this time. The problem isn't that it isn't uninhabited: the problem is that it's still a non-notable farmhouse.
Mangoe (
talk)
21:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please do not assume I didn't read the nomination. I did read it, I just disagree with the nomination. I believe the location passes WP:GEOLAND. Nominator seems to agree that the area was inhabited. It may just be a farmhouse today, but it looks like it was a town once upon a time. Likely very small, but enough to hold a US Post Office.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is it's listed as historical by the GNIS, so the fact it's currently likely non-notable doesn't mean it wasn't once notable. There's even a cemetery, at least at one point in time. SportingFlyer ( talk) 21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please go back and read the nomination this time. The problem isn't that it isn't uninhabited: the problem is that it's still a non-notable farmhouse.
Mangoe (
talk)
21:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This historical newspaper gleaning confirms names of people that lived in Herman and Pleasant Valley.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:32, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This list of pensioners confirms names of people that lived in Monroe and Pinion.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This historical gleaning confirms residents in Pleasant Valley, Orbitello, and Tower Spring.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:42, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per Paulmcdonald. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:23, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:08, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:08, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep all They were all once populated places and notability is not temporary. Smartyllama ( talk) 14:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete We dont even have articles on many villages with probably close to 1,000 people and headquarters of an LDS stake (which some compare to a Diocese, but they are smaller than most diocese, only having roughly 3,000 members on average) in Nigeria. There is no reason we should keep up the adsurdity of having articles on farm houses that were put on maps by people who wanted their maps to look complete.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
02:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the information, this is much more than "farm houses that were put on maps" -- These are actual populated areas with sources to prove it.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm willing to go with "area" or "locality": the evidence for "town" isn't good enough, and the evidence against it is strong enough. Mangoe ( talk) 21:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the information, this is much more than "farm houses that were put on maps" -- These are actual populated areas with sources to prove it.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- More references Wilson World August 3, 1916 confirms its existence, as does Wilson World later on November 23, 1916. The Hays Post printed this obituary just this year (February 19, 2018) of a person who went to school there in the 1930s. The Wichita Daily Eagle mentions the town in legal listings dated January 22, 1891. Here's a listing in in the Kansas State Board of Agriculture 1889 Biennial Report. In 1984, the National Gazetteer of the United States of America saw fit to include Orbitello as it has "been determined by the Board on Geographic Names BGN to be official for use throughout the Federal Government." While I'll grant that none of these on their own would necessarily grant notability, they do prove that 1) at least once upon a time it was more than just a farmhouse, and 2) the name has survived and been in use as a "populated, legally recognized place" in third party articles ranging from 1889 through just last month (Feb 2018). That's well over 100 years of recognition at the federal, state, and local level. Way more than enough to clear WP:GEOLAND.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 00:57, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep, there has been a longstanding consensus that officially gazetted locations are notable. The comparisons to an LDS stake are red herrings, in my view. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 10:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC).
- Keep, concur with User:Lankiveil. Out of curiosity, I looked the first one on the list up, Orbitello may have been a small place, but it had a post office. There are many places, including a many small places, that once existed, but no longer do (c.f. Category:Former populated places by continent. On a case by case basis it may be possible to merge and redirect some of these (say a former county or village to the history section of the town or county of which it is now part) E.M.Gregory ( talk) 12:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Good consensus here that even if these places wouldn't meet WP:GEOLAND today, there are sufficient WP:RS showing that they did at some point in the past, and that's all we need. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Orbitello, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Also nominating the following in the same county which also map to farmhouses:
- Herman, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pinon, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Pleasant Valley, Lincoln County, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Towerspring, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Another GNIS/post office synthesis in Kansas, but in this case the aerial makes the issue extremely clear: it plunks you down on a farmhouse. GNIS cites "The Official State Atlas of Kansas, Philadelphia: L.H. Everts and Company, 1887", and while I haven't seen this exact map, I've seen similar maps from the same era, and they tend to label residences with the name of the occupant; therefore this "historical locale" is in fact the same farm as exists today. You can call that a "settlement", but it's not a town, and it almost certainly never was a town, and I don't see the notability of every farmhouse in Kansas or anywhere else in the late 1800s that had a name next to it on a map. Mangoe ( talk) 18:09, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 18:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 18:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Comment defined as a historical locale by the US GNIS; a locale is: "Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams (battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill)." Probably not notable. SportingFlyer ( talk) 18:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- keep essentially for same reason stated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monroe, Kansas. Once-populated places, even if abandoned, retain their notability. Notability is not temporary.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:43, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please go back and read the nomination this time. The problem isn't that it isn't uninhabited: the problem is that it's still a non-notable farmhouse.
Mangoe (
talk)
21:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please do not assume I didn't read the nomination. I did read it, I just disagree with the nomination. I believe the location passes WP:GEOLAND. Nominator seems to agree that the area was inhabited. It may just be a farmhouse today, but it looks like it was a town once upon a time. Likely very small, but enough to hold a US Post Office.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is it's listed as historical by the GNIS, so the fact it's currently likely non-notable doesn't mean it wasn't once notable. There's even a cemetery, at least at one point in time. SportingFlyer ( talk) 21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please go back and read the nomination this time. The problem isn't that it isn't uninhabited: the problem is that it's still a non-notable farmhouse.
Mangoe (
talk)
21:01, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This historical newspaper gleaning confirms names of people that lived in Herman and Pleasant Valley.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:32, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This list of pensioners confirms names of people that lived in Monroe and Pinion.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:35, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Info This historical gleaning confirms residents in Pleasant Valley, Orbitello, and Tower Spring.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 21:42, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep per Paulmcdonald. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:23, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:08, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 21:08, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep all They were all once populated places and notability is not temporary. Smartyllama ( talk) 14:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete We dont even have articles on many villages with probably close to 1,000 people and headquarters of an LDS stake (which some compare to a Diocese, but they are smaller than most diocese, only having roughly 3,000 members on average) in Nigeria. There is no reason we should keep up the adsurdity of having articles on farm houses that were put on maps by people who wanted their maps to look complete.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
02:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the information, this is much more than "farm houses that were put on maps" -- These are actual populated areas with sources to prove it.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm willing to go with "area" or "locality": the evidence for "town" isn't good enough, and the evidence against it is strong enough. Mangoe ( talk) 21:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the information, this is much more than "farm houses that were put on maps" -- These are actual populated areas with sources to prove it.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
- More references Wilson World August 3, 1916 confirms its existence, as does Wilson World later on November 23, 1916. The Hays Post printed this obituary just this year (February 19, 2018) of a person who went to school there in the 1930s. The Wichita Daily Eagle mentions the town in legal listings dated January 22, 1891. Here's a listing in in the Kansas State Board of Agriculture 1889 Biennial Report. In 1984, the National Gazetteer of the United States of America saw fit to include Orbitello as it has "been determined by the Board on Geographic Names BGN to be official for use throughout the Federal Government." While I'll grant that none of these on their own would necessarily grant notability, they do prove that 1) at least once upon a time it was more than just a farmhouse, and 2) the name has survived and been in use as a "populated, legally recognized place" in third party articles ranging from 1889 through just last month (Feb 2018). That's well over 100 years of recognition at the federal, state, and local level. Way more than enough to clear WP:GEOLAND.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 00:57, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Keep, there has been a longstanding consensus that officially gazetted locations are notable. The comparisons to an LDS stake are red herrings, in my view. Lankiveil ( speak to me) 10:18, 11 March 2018 (UTC).
- Keep, concur with User:Lankiveil. Out of curiosity, I looked the first one on the list up, Orbitello may have been a small place, but it had a post office. There are many places, including a many small places, that once existed, but no longer do (c.f. Category:Former populated places by continent. On a case by case basis it may be possible to merge and redirect some of these (say a former county or village to the history section of the town or county of which it is now part) E.M.Gregory ( talk) 12:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.